When would you draw? Incident that happened today at about 530PM.

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Thank you Funktrooper and Hank T.

Deanf - So you would just sit there and call for the police? Maybe yell out the window to the guy being beaten to be calm and the police would be there in a few mins? Maybe even tell him that you would help him...but you are too afraid of a lawsuit? Also, that guy may have a family that depends on him also.

And my creed is more like this: God, people, country. Family being the first of the people

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Yet you sat there debating internally whether or not to lock up your gun instead of calling the police for assistance.

It never is a wrong in these situations to call 911 while you decide what you personally will do.

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If there are two guys just in a shoving match (as most "fights" are), I'm not getting in the middle of it, especially being armed. I'll call it in and leave it at that. If I see someone getting a serious beatdown; one on the ground and the other still kicking, punching, etc, or someone pulling a weapon, then that's the line in which I'll consider myself having to get involved to save someone from serious bodily harm and risk of death. Then I can articulate I felt someone's life was at risk and also feel that I had the choice to either get involved or watch someone get killed. Otherwise, I won't get involved in someone else's fight, unless there is some serious disparity of force going on (grandma getting shoved around by young punks, etc).

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J2l3 - You are absolutly right. There was someone who I thought was calling the police so at the time I figured it was taken care of. Looking back I realize that I should have been on my phone as well.



compmanio365 wrote:

If there are two guys just in a shoving match (as most "fights" are), I'm not getting in the middle of it, especially being armed. I'll call it in and leave it at that. If I see someone getting a serious beatdown; one on the ground and the other still kicking, punching, etc, or someone pulling a weapon, then that's the line in which I'll consider myself having to get involved to save someone from serious bodily harm and risk of death. Then I can articulate I felt someone's life was at risk and also feel that I had the choice to either get involved or watch someone get killed. Otherwise, I won't get involved in someone else's fight, unless there is some serious disparity of force going on (grandma getting shoved around by young punks, etc).

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This is the sort of answer I was looking for. I agree with you 100%. In my case, there was a serous disparity of force. The older guy was a big guy and was very intimidating to the younger, much smaller guy. It would have been more of a beating, than a fight.

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If you have to debate whether or not drawing your firearm is a reasonable thing maybe you should rethink why you carry. To me, carry is for my personal protection only. Don't get me wrong, if someone is shooting up a place and they get in my line of sight I would have no problem taking them. Going out of your way to fulfill the hero complex is what gives gun owners a black eye and makes us look like vigilantes.

We are not judge, jury, and executioners. We are simply humans who want nothing more than to protect our most important natural right: The right to live. If people refuse to take their own lives into their own hands or are simply just careless, then they must rely on societies' form of protection which is the police.

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I went by about the same time. Last night they had all four corner occupied.

I was in the left hand lane, so kept my eye on the road.



Dart

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*sigh*:banghead:

"If you have to debate whether or not drawing your firearm is a reasonable thing maybe you should rethink why you carry. To me, carry is for my personal protection only. Don't get me wrong, if someone is shooting up a place and they get in my line of sight I would have no problem taking them. Going out of your way to fulfill the hero complex is what gives gun owners a black eye and makes us look like vigilantes.

We are not judge, jury, and executioners. We are simply humans who want nothing more than to protect our most important natural right: The right to live. If people refuse to take their own lives into their own hands or are simply just careless, then they must rely on societies' form of protection which is the police."


I do not need to rethink why I carry, I know why I do.

I am not saying I was the Judge, Jury and Executioner. I dont know where you got that idea. The use of deadly force is obviously a last resort when a life is in danger.I dont understand why you think I have a "hero complex". I was not trying to be a hero, I didnt want to be there and I was not going to do ANYTHING unless Ineeded to.

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Welcome to the forum Dart. They were spread down Warren Ave for about a mile. Probably 8 of em. And there signs were pretty gross. They deffinatly got the shock-value they were going for. :shock:

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I would have just driven by and left the two morons to do their own thing. When dealing with protesters they will talk a big game, on both sides, but rarely ever actually fight. It takes away from their "cause". I have dealt with a lot of protestors in college and I try to get them to swing at me. They never do, just keep spewing rhetoric.

You actually stopped and wasted your time to watch two a$$holes argue about abortion, then tried to decide whether or not to get involved? I wish I had that kind of spare time on my hands. I talked to a cop who is a friend of mine and if he rolled up on 3 dudes fighting he told me that once back up arrived all would be taken down at gun point, cuffed, separated then most likely you would all go to jail. If you had a gun on you at the time you can plan on losing it.

Never jump into a fight until you know for a fact the innocence of one of the parties or life is at risk. There was a guy here in Boise who got in the middle of a bar fight and was shot and killed by one of the suspects. There is being a good samaritan, and being stupid. Jumping into a fight you have no part of is stupid. Call the cops, be a good witness and do the paperwork when they show up. Its not your job to save the world from itself.

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Quilbilly wrote:

Thank you Funktrooper and Hank T.

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Anytime, bro.

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Lemme see if I get this straight.

You overhear one guy yelling at another guy over a sign? And you are suddenly taking inventory of the weapons you have at hand in case you need to intervene?

That's how I read your post.

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G27 wrote:

If you have to debate whether or not drawing your firearm is a reasonable thing maybe you should rethink why you carry.

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I disagree the debate is what allows us to understand what to do in certain situations. If I hadn't questioned myself on what I would do then I would have probably had problems with how I handled certain situations in the past. Debating on drawing is different its less about why you carry and more about how to handle situations.

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Dave Workman wrote:

Lemme see if I get this straight.

You overhear one guy yelling at another guy over a sign? And you are suddenly taking inventory of the weapons you have at hand in case you need to intervene?

That's how I read your post.

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That's how I read the post. Sorry if I offended anyone but what I wrote is what I believe. I believe everyone should have the right to carry for protection; it's a natural right. Unfortunately the neglect and immaturity some owners have concerns me greatly. If you're a responsible gun owner, I'm sure you're aware of the kinds of people I'm referring to.

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I think pulling a gun on two people arguing is not only a bad idea, it's asking for a 9.41.270.

They both got their 1st Amendment rights. If you've ever been to a protest of any kind, you know how that is. Just let it be. Political arguments usually don't turn violent, unless Seattle PD is involved.

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G27 wrote:

Dave Workman wrote:

Lemme see if I get this straight.

You overhear one guy yelling at another guy over a sign? And you are suddenly taking inventory of the weapons you have at hand in case you need to intervene?

That's how I read your post.

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That's how I read the post. Sorry if I offended anyone but what I wrote is what I believe.

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You certainly didn't offend me!
Indeed, my next followup question to the original post would have been:
"Are you f--kin' crazy?"

G27 seems to have it pegged when he speaks about "neglect and immaturity."
I wrote about this in a recent Gun Digest column in which I alluded to "mall ninjas."
Now, Quilbilly, don't misunderstand. This is nothing personal, even though it seems that way.

Nobody driving down a street overhearing an argument between two fools over a damn sign (especially when the subject is as incendiary as abortion!) should do anything. Except keep your eyes on the road and hands on the wheel.

I wouldn't even stop if the guy had a sign about gun rights.



People arm themselves to defend themselves, their families, anyone in their immediate presence who may be an innocent third party victim.

NOBODY involved in an argument over a political sign is "innocent."
The only way you can ever come out ahead by intervening in a deal like that is to put five bucks on who you think will win the fist fight, and hope for the best.

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May I also point out how it looks to other armed people. Two guys get into a argument, another man jumps in with a gun. Who is right here? If I draw and shoot the guy with the gun, am I just defending or helping a robbery. Did I hear clearly what the argument was about?

If you are breaking up two guys and the smaller guy draws and shoots you, was there disparity of force? He will claim to your grieving family that he was in a fight when what he thought was a friend of the assailant jumped in tried to work him over.


Cops have command presence or tazers or nightsticks armor and legal defense for just these reasons.

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RCW 9A.16.050

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

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While I would never go out of my way to get involved (i.e. if I saw it start getting more heated I'd call the police), I would not hesitate if one guy (don't care who) began beating the other guy where it was evident the guy getting the beating could not defend himself... I could not sit by and watch a person get beat to death in front of me. But a good rule of thumb is always call the police before the situation gets that bad. Felony assault is covered by the above RCW and if you had called the police and they were stuck in traffic and the beating started getting bad... it might be up to you to save the person getting the beat down. Of course, always tell the felon to stop or you'll shoot (unless he's got a gun and is shooting at people, never give him a chance to shoot you too... you can't save anyone if you're dead). You might be different... you might just drive on by and let the chips fall where they may. But if the guy who was getting the beat down later died... could you live with that decision?

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So when pepper spray costs all of $20-$30 why are you limiting yourself to only lethal options in your vehicle?

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FE427TP wrote:

So when pepper spray costs all of $20-$30 why are you limiting yourself to only lethal options in your vehicle?

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Um, this is a firearms forums... you must have us confused with the pointy sticks and bear seasonings forums.

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Quilbilly wrote:

Whenwould you draw?When you feel a life is in danger, no doubt. But when should you feel that way? Whensomeone has a gun? When they have a knife? When they are beating someone and there is nothingmore can do about it? When they come after you?

I always assumed a SD situation would be straight forward, that there would be no question when to draw. When the adrenaline is pumping I could see where it would be easy to make a mistake. Tell me your thoughts so I can be prepared.

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In a situation of that general nature (outside your home/business, you are uninvolved 3rd party), you draw only in these circumstances:

1.) One party has a deadly weapon and is clearly about to use it, or is using it, to attack the other party. (Note, don't draw on someone walking away after an attack. That is not self-defense or defense of another unless you can later prove they were going to attack someone else immediately as well.)

2.) A fist fight has begun and one individual is clearly capable of, and likely to, very seriously injure or kill the other. The chance of injury can be determined by size and skill or circumstance (examples):
a)One person is much larger and stronger AND is attacking viciously (no drawing on a big man who is not fighting back while being attacked by a small woman).
b)Although apparently evenly matched one has gained the advantage and is viciously kicking or stomping on the other.

That is pretty much it. Although you might technically be legally able to draw in a certain other slightly lesser circumstances it is not a good idea to do so most of the time, and is usually unnecessary. Only introduce a gun into a weapon-free situation if you ABSOLUTELY have to.


HOWEVER, there is one other important issue to discuss. You should never have pulled over in ANTICIPATION of the fight. If you ended up shooting (or possibly just even drawing), that is going to be seen by the police, courts, and the victims familie's lawyer, as vigilantism, and you will get nailed to the wall in criminal and civil court.

What you need to realize is that because you have a gun you should be AVOIDING situations where you might need to draw your firearm, not looking for them. If you are the potential victim and you can WALK away then you should do so (If you would have to RUN away then go ahead and draw). If the victim is someone else and a serious and VIOLENT criminal act is in progress, and you feel you can save a life then draw. If a serious and violent criminal act is likely to happen, and you are ALREADY present, then stay out of the situation as much as possible, call the police, but also be prepared to draw and intervene if you need to. But, don't ever go looking for trouble while armed. Introducing a gun into a gun-free situation when you shouldn't have been there in the first place is likely to cause far more harm than good, and will possibly land you in prison and the poor house too.