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  1. #1
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    Hi, I'm new here and I'm not 100% on everything yet, but I'm hoping that I'm learning everything well, so if I ask too many ignorant questions, please excuse me. I just wanted to introduce myself and maybe get a few tips for OC in El Paso county and also in Lakewood, Arvada, Westminster and all areas excluding Denver city and county really. Also, I am poor (college student) and was wondering what everyone thought of inexpensive pistols. I am would love to get a Beretta 92/96, but that's a bit too far outside of my price range (under $300). Thanks for reading this and I look forward to getting to know you all soon. Also, what are the legal issues if I associate with a felon while carrying or if I am in close proximity with a felon while carrying? I have a friend that went down and I want to make sure that I don't follow his mistakes.

    Z.

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    Welcome to the boards!

    I have been carrying in Northern El Paso County for several months now, and have yet to have an encounter.

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    Welcome ZackL.

    Don't hesitate to ask any questions you have....OCing in this day and age isn't something to be done without being FULLY prepared and knowing the laws.

    OCing in and around the Springs area is uneventful so you shouldn't run into many, if any, problems.

    You might look at the Bersa line of pistols for something inexpensive. They are a quality firearm, accurate and reliable.
    One day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make it worth watching.

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    I would like to know about the felon question as well. As long as your firearm is in your control, concealed or not, is it ok? Thanks!

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    Regular Member reefteach's Avatar
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    Welcome!

    1. I have OCed in the Co Springs area a few times without incedent.

    2. A long as you are in control of the weapon, there is nothing wrong with your buddy hanging out with you.

    3. Don't rule out getting a revolver in .38 or .357, used or even new. S&W and Taurus are good bets. I have no experience with Charter Arms, but they meet your price point. If you want a semi-auto, I second PikesPeakMtnMan's Bersa recomendation. The good thing about cheap firearms is that you don't have to feel guilty about experimenting with Duracoat projects:

    :











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    First thanks for the information from everyone and the welcome as well. Second, the duracoat thing was awesome and it looks pretty good too.

    Now, does anyone know where to find used Bersa's or relatively cheap used guns to begin with? I've been looking on Gunbroker but I don't know anyone into guns (really at all) so knowing where to start is hard for me.

    Thanks again.

    Z.

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    First off, welcome to the boards, guy.

    Next, I do most of my OCing on the opposite side of Denver, but I've had almost zero problems. I don't think you'd have many issues up there. Just be careful once you get near Denver, the county lines are a pain in the ass to keep track of. I have a PDF of Denver that has all the streets that you can download:

    http://www.noticeablyfat.com/Transfe...street_map.pdf

    As for finding a gun, it might not hurt to spend just a little money at a range and rent a couple to see what works for you. If you know what you're looking for, gun shows are not a bad place to look. It looks like there's one this weekend in CO Springs, and the Tanner Gun Show in Denver will be back the weekend of the first. I prefer gun shows to online, I like to be able to handle a gun before I buy it. If you're not sure what to look for in a used gun, I'm sure there's a few guys here willing to hang out at a show with you. I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but I do have free time if you want to go.

    Good luck out there!

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    That would be great, this weekend won't work well because I'm struggling to get all my homework done before finals week. However, the show in Denver the weekend of the first would be great to go to. I'm not real excited about looking online for a gun, but living in Calhan it's the easiest thing for me. Are there any ranges that rent out at a reasonable price?

    Z.

  9. #9
    scubabeme
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    Note that City of Westminster-owned buildings all have notices against open carry at the pubic entrances . Now they don't have permanent metal detectors at all public entrances except at the Municipal Court building, so I don't know just how enforceable it is, but unless you really want to be a test case I wouldn't do it. (Additionally, the code states that you can't do it on on city "premises" which would include parking lots and parks--for what it's worth)
    ( http://www.ci.westminster.co.us/code/884_1747.htm )

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    I'll second gun shows and Taurus. Taurus seems to be the knock-off of S&W, but I've been happy with mine. Haven't had the quality issues some have reported.

    Figure out what you're looking for and shop the gun shows. You don't have to buy the first time. Try out a few to see what suits your hand. There's always going to be more gun shows with more guns. Take a gun nut friend with you who knows what you're looking at and what it's worth. Know the price ranges yourself. Get something you'll be able to afford to shoot.

    It's much better to take your time finding a gun you can afford including ammo and range time that you're going to be happy with rather than buy the biggest, baddest, prettiest thing off the internet and find it doesn't feel good in your hand and it's too expensive to shoot and stay practiced with. In a self-defense situation, it's the difference between the tool you know like your own fingers and a big fancy car fresh off the lot trying to find the headlight switch.

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    I honestly couldn't tell you the best place to go to rent, I've never actually done it. My suggestion there would be to look up a few local ones and call them about prices. As for actually shooting, I wouldn't think you'd have to shoot every single model you are interested. Find a few different models at the range that you think represent a decent cross section of what you think you are looking for and see if you can shoot them. Then you can go to a shop or show and handle a bunch of different ones to see how they fit without needing to shoot them before you buy.

    As for finding a gun online, it's not a bad place to start looking. You may not want to buy online, but it's great for research.

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    scubabeme wrote:
    Note that City of Westminster-owned buildings all have notices against open carry at the pubic entrances . Now they don't have permanent metal detectors at all public entrances except at the Municipal Court building, so I don't know just how enforceable it is, but unless you really want to be a test case I wouldn't do it. (Additionally, the code states that you can't do it on on city "premises" which would include parking lots and parks--for what it's worth)
    ( http://www.ci.westminster.co.us/code/884_1747.htm )
    CO law lets cities ban open carry if they wish, so long as it's properly posted, which it sounds like Westminster does (Colo Spgs, Pueblo and Cripple Creek all ban OC in city buildings as I've seen from personal experience [Cripple Creek actually has it coded that the signs must be a certain size, and contain specific wording])
    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.

    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.

    The part about permanent metal detectors is about CCing, or rather not being able to. Now it stands to reason that if they won't allow a concealed firearm even with a permit it's highly unlikely they'll allow an OC'd gun, especially without a CHP.
    18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.
    (b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.
    (2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
    (3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:
    (a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked.
    (b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty.
    (c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.
    (4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
    (a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
    (b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and
    (c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.
    (5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
    (6) The provisions of this section apply to temporary emergency permits issued pursuant to section 18-12-209.
    One day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make it worth watching.

  13. #13
    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    scubabeme wrote:
    Note that City of Westminster-owned buildings all have notices against open carry at the pubic entrances . Now they don't have permanent metal detectors at all public entrances except at the Municipal Court building, so I don't know just how enforceable it is, but unless you really want to be a test case I wouldn't do it. (Additionally, the code states that you can't do it on on city "premises" which would include parking lots and parks--for what it's worth)
    ( http://www.ci.westminster.co.us/code/884_1747.htm )
    I just read the Westminster code regarding carrying on city premises and it is completely unenforceable unless they post signs in accordance with state law at EVERY entrance to city owned property which they dont do. Their signs on the municipal buildings are legal, but not a general ban on OCing on city premises without adequate signage.

    That being said, I'm sure they would arrest any violators and it would be a pain to have to fight it, though I think the courts would have to side the defendant based on state law.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    Hey guys, thanks, as always, for the plethora of valuable information. I've been looking into getting a hi-point (they have them at a store nearby) and wanted to know what you've all thought of them. My buddy has one and has never had any issues, but I've read a few places that they sometimes jam. Also, I recently shot a Jennings Bryco(?) 9mm and I liked the size and weight of it, but it was a little more than a little unreliable. My next question is what would you all recommend for a caliber in a defense pistol?

    Thanks again,
    Z.

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    ZackL wrote:
    Hey guys, thanks, as always, for the plethora of valuable information. I've been looking into getting a hi-point (they have them at a store nearby) and wanted to know what you've all thought of them. My buddy has one and has never had any issues, but I've read a few places that they sometimes jam. Also, I recently shot a Jennings Bryco(?) 9mm and I liked the size and weight of it, but it was a little more than a little unreliable. My next question is what would you all recommend for a caliber in a defense pistol?

    Thanks again,
    Z.
    I wouldn't buy a Hi-Point if I were you. I had gotten one years ago, and while it didn't jam, I couldn't hit anything with it. Not even at close distance. Also it wasn't overly heavy, but the weight wasn't distributed very well. It was very top heavy.

    In my opinion, one of the best values on the gun market are Ruger pistols. They are pretty cheap, extremely reliable, and, if you buy a P85/89/90 you could throw the thing at someone and kill them if you ran out of ammo

    The P85/89/90 series are fairly heavy, the newer ones (P95/97) have a polymer frame, and are lighter, as well as cheaper.

    If you're patient, you'll probably find a Ruger for under $300.


    I'd carry at least a 9mm, preferably a .45 or 10mm (my personal OPINION), but any caliber is better than none. My friends dad killed a charging black bear with a .22MAG revolver. Good shot? maybe.... Lucky that it worked? Extremely. But the point is a .22 is better than nothing.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Check this sites out:
    http://www.cologunmarket.com/mkt/
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Ok, so now I'm really confused. I have talked to a few people on here and a lot of people in person and it seems that the verdict is still out on Hi-point guns. My friend has one and has never had a jam of any sort, never had any issues, and swears by their accuracy. I have read many a raging review and it seems that about a third to half of them say they are inaccurate junk.

    Here are my reasons for considering a hi-point:
    They are cheap
    I am an out of work college student (need proofreading? I'm pretty cheap!)
    I am getting out of my reptile hobby to collect guns (I love reptiles and trust me you don't want to question it as the love of my life)
    I plan on using FMJ rounds for personal protection as well as target shots
    I plan on carrying a lot and, call me crazy, but I like the weight and feel of Hi-points
    I have only found a few guns that I like more and they are all more in the $550 range
    Finally, because I'm on a budget, I have decided on a .40 because of the stopping power that they have and 9's do not. I have handled a few .40's and thought that some, even though they have a steep price tag, feel somewhat cheap and flimsy when I handled them (maybe the lack of ammo and actually firing...?)
    Also, I like the idea of a lifetime warranty, can anyone else name a manufacturer that warranties like hi-point (first or hundredth owner) aside from Taurus? It's not that I don't like Taurus, it's just that I cannot afford the 24/7 I like right now.

    And besides, it seems that Jennings/Bryco/Jimenez, Cobra, and a few others are around the same price but much less reliable and more dangerous (to the carrier) than Hi-points.

    Also, if someone knows where I can find a Taurus 24/7 .40 cal., a Ruger KP-95 or a Beretta 96D for around the price of a Hi-point (maybe even a hundred more) I would most definitely look at those guns first.

    Again, thank you all. Yooper, the RMGO site was a great help and as soon as I can afford it I'm going to become a participating member so that I can help keep firearms available and legal.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    I should have mentioned, that they might not be a bad gun if you can hit with it, I was giving you MY impression of the one I owned. Like I said, my Hi-Point never jammed, or failed to fire, but I couldn't hit anything with it, and it felt really akward in my hand, but that could be just me.

    If you can hit with it and if feels good to you, then they're not that bad of a gun.
    Those other cheap guns you mentioned, the dealer I go through won't stock them, and just about refuses to special order any, but he does have some Hi-Points in stock so I'm assuming he feels they're a half way decent gun.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    After a little tweaking 2 of the 6 mags, the C9 is reliable, accurate, and a hoot to shoot. The wifey loves it and 'stole' it from me...

    They're cheap enough so you could put one in every nook and cranny of your house, and they're heavy enough for blunt force trauma if'n ya run outta bang pills...

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    I cannot believe anyone is even dabating the accuracy (or lack of)of a semi-auto pistol that cost's less than $200.00! Geez guys, where else ya gonna get a .45 ACP for $179.00 or a 9mm for $139.00. Hi-Point!

    Are they a high-quality fiream? I do not think so, but something is waybetter than nothing ina time of need.

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    Well thank you guys for all of the help thus far, I feel like a little kid running through the mall for the first time asking about everything and I'm sorry if I come across that way; I'm not intending to be a pest about anything. I've handled a few guns now and, while I can't find any to shoot, I have found my "next goal" guns and have completely decided on two Hi-Points, the 9mm (does anyone know if they sell them in a full size or is it all compact?) and the .40. I have found a business on Gunbroker that can work a deal for the two of them that's cheaper than buying them individually here and I want two so that I won't have to share when a friend and I go shooting. (How would I contact an FFL holder to have them shipped?)

    The next gun I hope to have inside of a year is the Taurus 24/7 .40 or the Ruger KP95. I've been watching the pawnshops and a few online sources (including the one included here) and can't come across them inexpensively enough as of right now. Of course all of this is assuming that I will be able to afford the gun(s) in question and that I don't find a better deal on a pistol I can live with or like before I actually purchase the Hi-Points or Taurus or Ruger.

    Again, you guys have helped me out a lot already and I thank you. Also, what kind of belt would I need to support a hi-point?

    Z.

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    I have one from http://www.thebeltman.net/, and I really like it. You can probably get one cheaper elsewhere though. I would recommend against a cheap Walmart belt. You'll want something that is stiff vertically. Mine has two layers and a plastic insert on the right side. It flexes around me, but not vertically.

  23. #23
    Regular Member reefteach's Avatar
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    Why not a revolver? My revolver is my primary. I have never had a feeding issue or a stovepipe with it.

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    I'm just not a fan of revolvers. Don't get me wrong, I think they're brilliantly designed and some are down-right gorgeous, but while they may be all those things and more, I still find them somewhat archaic. On top of that, I can only hope that, if anything does go wrong and I need to use a firearm to protect myself, I can still aim the gun accurately enough to hit what I'm aiming for. Stress and adrenaline are both things that you cannot prepare for in a controlled environment. I do like the judge though, it's definitely nifty lol. I'll look more into revolvers, but I cannot guarantee anything about buying one in the next year.

    Also, I was raised around bb guns and I knew that we had guns in the house, but until three months ago I'd never fired any firearm. Then it was just a few weeks ago that I fired my first pistol.

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    Re: stress and adrenaline -Anyone else train by getting your heart rate up as well as defensive course shooting? I'm in the "muscle memory until you can do it with your eyes closed" camp, personally.

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