ACLU of Colorado takes on Loveland, CO police for harassing open carrier at North Lake Park

TFred · Jul 18, 2009

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opencarrybilly wrote:

I wonder if he read the lettersent to him bythe ACLU.

hecker.aclu.7.16.09[1].pdf

Hmm, I wonder if they are having a collective "oh shoot" moment... Unlikely. These lessons only seem to be learned at the end of a 5 figure check.

BTW, the letter has a typo, next to last paragraph, they ask for records of the incident which took place in October 2009! Oops.

TFred

opencarrybilly · Jul 18, 2009

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Yes. I noticed the typo and told the ACLU.

As I said before, I am very favorably impressed with the ACLU of Colorado.

BB62 · Jul 18, 2009

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Theseus wrote:

OCDO is not a helping organization. They seek only to get the information out and sway public opinion by writing articles, advertising on radio stations and putting up billboard signs.

They have no interest in actually helping the activist, only capitalizing on the publicity when and if you do actually win.

I recommend, like Mike, that you look elsewhere for assistance, you will not really find it here.

That's harsh, man. And I think it's inaccurate.

No, OCDO won't raise money for a person's defense, but there is nothingstopping a state-level organization, or trusted in-state representative from doing the same.

Additionally,the publicity, the letter(s) / contact (s) that John or Mike might make are very valuable.

This OCDO, this forum and the members who populate it are quite powerful - strong enough to get on the radar of a number of LE agencies.

I'm forever glad for the creation and nurturing that John and Mike have done and continue to do.

Theseus · Jul 18, 2009

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BB62 wrote:

Theseus wrote:

OCDO is not a helping organization. They seek only to get the information out and sway public opinion by writing articles, advertising on radio stations and putting up billboard signs.

They have no interest in actually helping the activist, only capitalizing on the publicity when and if you do actually win.

I recommend, like Mike, that you look elsewhere for assistance, you will not really find it here.

Click to expand...

That's harsh, man. And I think it's inaccurate.

No, OCDO won't raise money for a person's defense, but there is nothingstopping a state-level organization, or trusted in-state representative from doing the same.

Additionally,the publicity, the letter(s) / contact (s) that John or Mike might make are very valuable.

This OCDO, this forum and the members who populate it are quite powerful - strong enough to get on the radar of a number of LE agencies.

I'm forever glad for the creation and nurturing that John and Mike have done and continue to do.

Don't get me wrong, OCDO does serve its purpose, and I am not saying otherwise. What I am saying is that the help that the poster was seeking is not to be found here.

They can barely raise money enough for billboard signs, let alone the personal defense of one of us when we get persecuted. OCDO is not in a capacity to assist us in matters of true defense against charges.

opencarrybilly · Jul 18, 2009

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The organization itself or its members, it makes no difference to me who might want to come together in support of this effort.

And, please note that I am not defending myself against any charges. There were none. I am trying to bring action againmst the Loveland police. Although the matter has thus far come to be the violation of my personal 4A right, I do not intend to forget that the real issue is the 2A right of the People. There is also a 1A issue here that I intend to pursue, not claiming that theOC is speach. Courts have found that it is not. However, I claim that the conversation that many people want to have with me upon seeing me OCing is speech and that, to the extent that officers get away with discouraging me from OCing, they have a chilling effect on that speech.

mark edward marchiafava · Jul 18, 2009

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For years, I have been preaching we need just ONE serious gun-rights attorney to handle this exact type of case nationwide.
It really wouldn't take much $$$ from each of us to fund this. Once up and running, maybe half of any proceeds could then feed the kitty, making dues/contributions unnecessary.
Unlike the NRA (negotiate rights away) we don't need to build a multi-million dollar palace stuffed with tons of highly overpaid suits.

Mike · Jul 18, 2009

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opencarrybilly wrote:

Although the matter has thus far come to be the violation of my personal 4A right, I do not intend to forget that the real issue is the 2A right of the People. There is also a 1A issue here that I intend to pursue, not claiming that theOC is speach. Courts have found that it is not.

Expressive conduct is protected speech - what case holds that open carry cannot be expressive conduct?

opencarrybilly · Jul 18, 2009

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Mike wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

Although the matter has thus far come to be the violation of my personal 4A right, I do not intend to forget that the real issue is the 2A right of the People. There is also a 1A issue here that I intend to pursue, not claiming that theOC is speach. Courts have found that it is not.

Click to expand...

Expressive conduct is protected speech - what case holds that open carry cannot be expressive conduct?

Sorry. I am not astute in this kind of dialogue and so am not in the habbit of noting the case references (Is that the correct terminology?)when I read these things. I am prettysure, though, that I read it some time ago on this forum. Perhaps a search of some kind would find it.

BTW - In the interest of full disclosure, I used to be holsterbill. A while back I made some changes in my email system and then could not log on. Then, I didn't know how to do it as holsterbill, so just got my present name.

Hope that helps.

Mike · Jul 18, 2009

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opencarrybilly wrote:

Mike wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

Although the matter has thus far come to be the violation of my personal 4A right, I do not intend to forget that the real issue is the 2A right of the People. There is also a 1A issue here that I intend to pursue, not claiming that theOC is speach. Courts have found that it is not.

Click to expand...

Expressive conduct is protected speech - what case holds that open carry cannot be expressive conduct?

Click to expand...

Sorry. I am not astute in this kind of dialogue and so am not in the habbit of noting the case references (Is that the correct terminology?)when I read these things.

Check our rules - we ask everybody to cite to authority when proffering rules of law - just do the best you can.

opencarrybilly · Jul 18, 2009

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:

For years, I have been preaching we need just ONE serious gun-rights attorney to handle this exact type of case nationwide.
It really wouldn't take much $$$ from each of us to fund this. Once up and running, maybe half of any proceeds could then feed the kitty, making dues/contributions unnecessary.
Unlike the NRA (negotiate rights away) we don't need to build a multi-million dollar palace stuffed with tons of highly overpaid suits.

Great thinking!

Let us get going on it. My plate is kind of full right now, but, together, we might at least get things started.

Can you think of others who might know sombody who might know somebody . . ." I am thinking of two people I know who might help us find someone.

Would it be a good idea for usget in touch independently from this forum to chat? How might we do that?

mark edward marchiafava · Jul 18, 2009

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You would think just ONE attorney who may have visited/heard of this site would have come forward by now, but that hasn't happened.
LOTS of people claim to support this or that, but when it comes down to actually DOING something that requires time and/or money, they run.
Good luck on finding that rare person, let us all know when you do.

Pace · Jul 18, 2009

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The ACLU is obviously addressing gun rights, because by default they are assuming that carrying a gun is itself a legal action, period.

They are saying, like many legal actions, a guy was minding his own business, conducting a legal action and that the police approached him to search him for no reason whatsoever, except that he was carrying a gun (a legal action).

They have no right to "protect themselves" because there is no reason to believe that they were in any more danger than they knew. Ie, they knew he had a gun, and they could see it. The idea of a search is to ascertain unseen threats...

The police were just harassing him

TFred · Jul 18, 2009

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I wonder if the "ACLU of Colorado" is going to get themselves kicked out of their little club? Anybody have any scoop on how this is going over with the "daddy boys" on the National level? I bet they have indigestion at the very least.

TFred

DanM · Jul 18, 2009

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TFred wrote:

I wonder if the "ACLU of Colorado" is going to get themselves kicked out of their little club? Anybody have any scoop on how this is going over with the "daddy boys" on the National level?

There is definitely something going on internally at the ACLU. The Arizona chapter has come out in support of the 2A being an individual right, which they'll defend.

I suspect many ACLU members recognize the plain hypocrisy that the national organization displays with respect to the 2Aversus 1A through 10A in the BOR. And, I suspect, those members are being very internally vocal about it. They recognize, as would any clear thinking person, that you can't claim to defend individual liberties if you don't defend ALL individual liberties.

entartet17 · Jul 19, 2009

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Looks like it's time for another Colorado OC get-together and now we have the perfect location.

Huck · Jul 19, 2009

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Phelps said residents have a right to possess and carry firearms, but
that "there is a fine line between the protection of a individual's rights and the protection of a law enforcement officer."

The usual LEOexcuse for trampling on people's rights, officer safety!:cuss:

Anyone's unreasoning fears, no matter who they are, donotoverridea individual's rights!

I can understand LEOs being concerned for their safety but anyone with a iota of plain old common sense would realize that crooks dont walk around OCing.

opencarrybilly · Jul 19, 2009

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entartet17 wrote:

Looks like it's time for another Colorado OC get-together and now we have the perfect location.

Careful about the location, though. The newspaper article of 7/17/09 had it at North Lake Park. This is incorrect. It occured at the south shore of the lake. There is a school near North Lake Park. I don't know how close. Never been there.

Mike · Jul 19, 2009

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opencarrybilly wrote:

entartet17 wrote:

Looks like it's time for another Colorado OC get-together and now we have the perfect location.

Click to expand...

Careful about the location, though. The newspaper article of 7/17/09 had it at North Lake Park. This is incorrect. It occured at the south shore of the lake. There is a school near North Lake Park. I don't know how close. Never been there.

OK, what is the name of the lake where you at when detained?

opencarrybilly · Jul 19, 2009

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Lake Loveland. US 34 (Eiesenhower Blvd)runs past the south shore. There is a small green area there with some sculptures and a small parking lot. There is a sidewalk all along the south shore.

The exact spot can be seen by going to Google -Maps and searching 531 W Eisenhower Blvd, Loveland, CO. The offenses of the three AGAEOs (Anti GunAgenda Enforcement Officers

)occurred between the two treesjust a few steps toward the lake from the square trash container shown just off the right rear corner of the trailer.

Buckskinner15 · Jul 19, 2009

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Hello opencarrybilly as well as everyone else on the forum. I live in the Loveland area and was very upset when I read about this incident in the paper. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know. Unfortunately, I am a college student and unable to offer any significant monetary aid. Also, I still have six months to go before I turn 21, so I can't sterile carry as was suggested (unless I carried a rifle or shotgun... hmm, wonder what they'd say about that? Thoughts?). However, if you want me to call/write/email anyone, I'd be glad to. I'd also be happy to attend any open carry event that gets scheduled as a result of this. Or any open carry event in the area at all, for that matter. Thanks opencarrybilly for sticking up for all of our constitutional rights.

ACLU of Colorado takes on Loveland, CO police for harassing open carrier at North Lake Park

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