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Thread: Virginia open carrier self defense incident shows open carry can have tactical advantages

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    From today's VA-ALERT:

    --

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    VCDL's meeting schedule: http://www.vcdl.org/meetings.html
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: http://www.vcdl.org/help/abbr.html
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
    Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
    2. Abingdon working to fix ordinance banning guns on Virginia Creeper
    Trail
    3. Attorney General Bill Mims signs amicus brief supporting the
    incorporation of the Second Amendment
    4. Herndon now says that gun owners are welcome after ejecting an
    open carry from the Herndon Festival in June
    5. Loudoun playing games with self-defense rights
    6. Second Amendment March table at Salem gun show this weekend

    ************************************************** **************************
    1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
    Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
    ************************************************** **************************

    On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
    in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
    owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
    inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

    He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
    set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

    Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
    (Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
    place one week earlier.

    Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
    I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

    We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
    hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

    Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
    videos:

    The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
    when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
    coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
    everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
    walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
    twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
    more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
    shot the store owner.

    Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

    The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
    BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
    GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

    The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
    innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
    distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
    that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
    for that GO returning fire.

    The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
    various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
    cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

    What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
    owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
    aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
    to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

    Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
    open.

    Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
    floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

    But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
    arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
    twice.

    Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
    tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
    A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
    and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
    on his rather heavy gun.

    The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
    door, but collapsed at the door.

    The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
    bad guy, called 9-1-1.

    The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

    The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
    had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
    could figure out who was who.

    What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
    owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
    all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
    let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
    this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
    shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
    teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
    the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
    customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
    display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
    killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

    A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
    none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

    --

    The GO wanted me to share the following points:

    * Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
    life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
    trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

    * Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

    * More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
    they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
    if their crimes send them to jail.

    * He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

    --

    Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

    * Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
    without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
    important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

    * Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
    just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
    fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
    you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
    in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
    store owner.

    * I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
    THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
    grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
    hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
    place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
    position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
    prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
    of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
    shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
    takes to stop such an attack quickly.

    * If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
    which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

    * This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
    ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
    course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
    guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
    my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
    magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
    idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
    before he does, he will execute you. Period.


  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Wow, what a difference from the reports in the media. After reading the accurate account, while I'm sure the GO is not happy about the situation, I don't think he's going to be losing any sleep at night over the death of the BG. If anything I'd be losing sleep over how close it came to being me! What a totally crazy 2 minutes!

    TFred


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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Time to get a new trigger:celebrate

    It is interesting the difference in the story the media told versus what really happened..... Can I say intentional?
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Wow, what a story. Seems it was quite a fight, not just a simple shooting.

    My 2 cents: don't tell him to drop the gun or say anything at all. The guy already opened fire, the fight's already under way, just let him have it as soon as possible.

    It certainly sounds as if the customers laying on the floor were living out a nightmare. The antis, of course, would say this is horrible, it's the GO's fault, etc.

    But the fact is that the BG already shot one innocent and apparently liked it, he liked the power so much he was threatening people even as he being shot at! The GO saved those people's lives, plain and simple.

    A better story would have been if 3 or 4 of the customers were armed instead of just one.

    As for OC's advantages, it seems that it is faster, which we know from time at the range. But it doesn't quite end the argument. Had the BG spotted the revolver he might have shot the GO, or he might have begged off to come back some other time. That said, I wouldn't want to be the poor customer laying on the floor trying to draw my concealed pistol without drawing attention to my self, struggling with my shirt.

    Perhaps the best situation is one in which some people CC and some OC...

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be so sure that the guy was on drugs. When I got shot I never felt it, and I didn't even have an adrenalin rush going because I didn't see it coming. In the heat of the moment, pain can effect you even less.

    The key to stopping a fight with a gun is to disrupt the central nervous system, not get pain compliance.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Perhaps the best situation is one in which some people CC and some OC...
    It's funny how liberty does that.... Always coming up with the best possible result.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    That's one quick-thinking citizen there on firing the single action triggerless. Bravo!

    It's not paranoid behavior to open carry, nor is it paranoid behavior to carry a few spare magazines or a few speed-loaders. Practicing drawing from the holster and firing quickly is important. Practicing reloads and failure drills is also very important. If you can't practice like that at a range or on public land, use snap-caps in your home to do it. Having a backup gun (even if it's just a .22 Derringer) may be a very good idea.

    Reading how the perpetrator was strutting around after taking three center-of-mass hits has me thinking one thing; Mozambique drill - Practice it until it's reflexive. The pause between the double (or triple) tap at COM is just long enough to acquire a sight-picture on the head and then asses the status of the threat. If the threat isn't ended (ie. the perpetrator is still strutting around the store) then it's time to end the threat in a more permanent manner.

    I hate to Monday-morning Quarterback here, so I'll stop. The gun-owner did the right thing.

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    This just further backs my decision to go nowhere unarmed.
    Glad the good guys (OCer, store owner, customers) made it out alive and that there's one less bad guy in the world.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    This just further backs my decision to go nowhere unarmed.
    Glad the good guys (OCer, store owner, customers) made it out alive and that there's one less bad guy in the world.


    You know what's funny? Talk to an anti about carrying and they will tell you all manner of things and reasons why it's ridiculous and "why would you want to do that, anyway?". They will imply, either directly or indirectly, that there is something wrong with you for wanting to do this.

    But then when something happens like the incident in this thread, they tend to be speechless or dismiss it entirely. It's almost as though they are willing to accept the inevitable in such an event rather than to submit to carrying something that could save their life.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    I had one type-o in the alert - I went to the Golden Market to view the surveillance video on Friday, not Saturday. I'll correct that in a future update. :X

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    Just a few questions I'd like to know--was the GOa true unicorn? Was he a VCDL member?

    I'm also currious if the trigger guard broke off which allowed the trigger to break? Did it not have a trigger guard?

    Unbelievable account. Did he experience tunnel vision? Auditory exclusion? It sounds like he got 1 hit in before the trigger broke and two more after, missing only one time. Wow.

    How is he emotionally?

    Whoever you are GO, you did good. Real good.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    nova wrote:
    This just further backs my decision to go nowhere unarmed.
    Glad the good guys (OCer, store owner, customers) made it out alive and that there's one less bad guy in the world.


    You know what's funny? Talk to an anti about carrying and they will tell you all manner of things and reasons why it's ridiculous and "why would you want to do that, anyway?". They will imply, either directly or indirectly, that there is something wrong with you for wanting to do this.

    But then when something happens like the incident in this thread, they tend to be speechless or dismiss it entirely. It's almost as though they are willing to accept the inevitable in such an event rather than to submit to carrying something that could save their life.
    "Nothing generates so much silence as confronting a person with an undeniable truth which is contrary to that person's beliefs."

    I don't know who first said it, but it definitely applies here!

    TFred


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    On the other hand, what if the criminal came in and told everyone to just stay put and nobody gets hurt - steals some stuff, an leaves - concealed carry might be an advantage by allowing you NOT engage the criminal until and unless you wanted to and not risk the criminal spotting you as carrying.

    But then again if a criminal is concealing as he enters a store to rob it, and sees somebody open carrying, they might be deterred from carrying out the crime.

    In the end there is no way to say OC is generally "tactically" better than CC or vice versa. But open carry does have its general political advantage of education and normalization.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    nova wrote:
    This just further backs my decision to go nowhere unarmed.
    Glad the good guys (OCer, store owner, customers) made it out alive and that there's one less bad guy in the world.


    You know what's funny? Talk to an anti about carrying and they will tell you all manner of things and reasons why it's ridiculous and "why would you want to do that, anyway?". They will imply, either directly or indirectly, that there is something wrong with you for wanting to do this.

    But then when something happens like the incident in this thread, they tend to be speechless or dismiss it entirely. It's almost as though they are willing to accept the inevitable in such an event rather than to submit to carrying something that could save their life.
    "Nothing generates so much silence as confronting a person with an undeniable truth which is contrary to that person's beliefs."

    I don't know who first said it, but it definitely applies here!

    TFred
    Yes sir, that would seem to fall under the heading of "universal truth". Thank you.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I am also curious.

    How exactly did the trigger break? A picture would be nice.

    What was the mechanism of the break? Strike on floor?

    What was the make and model of the weapon?

    Is the manufacturer going to comp the repair?

    What was the caliber? I read 45, but I read elsewhere it was 45 Long Colt.

    What ammo?

    Love to see a pic of the holster too.

    Does he always carry this way?

    Was the shooter experienced/trained/practiced, or did he wing it?

    This one is purely speculative. Inner city people that carry old west rigs can easily be typecast as a bit 'eccentric'. Not trying to disparage the man at all, just saying...

    And bravo to the RPD (and possibly the media)for keeping his name and face out of the news.

    Lastly, I'd like to buy that guy a nice dinner. God bless him for saving those people's lives. I hope he internalizes that he did everything right and nothing wrong. Some people have trouble with even rightious shoots.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Not bad shooting, high pressure situation, two shots done single action with a broken trigger, yet three hits out of four ! Not only must he have practiced physically, he must have prepared mentally too.

    I would really like to hear the story of how he came to OC a weapon like that on his own, without first becoming a member of an open carry group like this? Or was he a part of some open carry group?

    One more question I have, not to make light of the situation, is that I wonder if he was shooting using black powder :^).

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    This does kind of make me want to move back to Virginia, but there is such an important fight here in California. . .

    If I have not already said it. . . good job!

    Guns are as easy or as complicated as they need to be. . . his quick thinking in light of a broken trigger is the kind of thing you should hopefully never have happen, but he solved the problem.

    Why do I carry? Not to be a hero or cowboy, but to be the defender of life, limb and family, and cercumstances willing the public as well.

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    Reverend73 wrote:
    Just a few questions I'd like to know--was the GOa true unicorn? Was he a VCDL member?

    I'm also currious if the trigger guard broke off which allowed the trigger to break? Did it not have a trigger guard?

    Unbelievable account. Did he experience tunnel vision? Auditory exclusion? It sounds like he got 1 hit in before the trigger broke and two more after, missing only one time. Wow.

    How is he emotionally?

    Whoever you are GO, you did good. Real good.
    Wow - lots of questions. I'll do my best:

    It was a Uburti replica of an 1875 Remington Army in .45 Long Colt - 7 1/2 inch barrel.

    He did say anything about the trigger guard. My guess is it was the trigger spring.

    **Keep in mind the police confiscated his gun and he probably won't get it back for months**

    He said his heart rate went through the roof, but didn't mention auditory or visual exclusion. Probably a safe guess to say he had some of that.

    I asked him if this were triggering nightmares. He said, no, because there was no doubt that he did what had to be done.

    He said he was a pretty accomplished shooter.


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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    I am also curious.

    How exactly did the trigger break? A picture would be nice.

    What was the mechanism of the break? Strike on floor?

    What was the make and model of the weapon?

    Is the manufacturer going to comp the repair?

    What was the caliber? I read 45, but I read elsewhere it was 45 Long Colt.

    What ammo?

    Love to see a pic of the holster too.

    Does he always carry this way?

    Was the shooter experienced/trained/practiced, or did he wing it?

    This one is purely speculative. Inner city people that carry old west rigs can easily be typecast as a bit 'eccentric'. Not trying to disparage the man at all, just saying...

    And bravo to the RPD (and possibly the media)for keeping his name and face out of the news.

    Lastly, I'd like to buy that guy a nice dinner. God bless him for saving those people's lives. I hope he internalizes that he did everything right and nothing wrong. Some people have trouble with even rightious shoots.
    He does not have the gun, the police do and will for months. I am guessing the trigger spring broke. Unknown how it broke, but happened when he belly-flopped onto the floor.

    Uburti replica of an 1875 Remington Army in .45 Long Colt w/ 7 1/2 inch barrel.

    Don't know about mfgr doing any comps.

    Ball ammo(!) Of course, that was what won the West.

    Western Style holster with leg tie.

    Always carries that way when he carries.

    Claims to be a skilled shooter. I would say that is correct.

    Not a VCDL member or OCDO member. He now monitors VA-ALERT.


  20. #20
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Wow, what a story. Seems it was quite a fight, not just a simple shooting.

    My 2 cents: don't tell him to drop the gun or say anything at all. The guy already opened fire, the fight's already under way, just let him have it as soon as possible.
    Yep, first two shots didn't kill the shop owner, the third might have. No time to waste giving him an opportunity to do so. And as mentioned in the alert three (two critical) shots didn't stop the BG.

    This is one reason when I practice draw and fire I do double taps. You've got to learn how to get your gun back on target as quickly as possible. The gun will naturally come back to point of aim but you have to learn to "wait" for it to do so. Once you learn this "cadence" of your particular gun and grip you can fire quite quickly and accurately. I am typically doing 4" groups at 21 feet. I don't use sights for that type of shooting, just point and shoot, which is aimed, kind of like pointing with your finger, just not using the sights.

    I may start practicing triple taps. This biggest inaccuracy of the news story to me is the impression the BG was stopped with one shot. How Hollywood.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    One other thing. I don't think a "Wrongful Death" suit has a snowball's chance in hell in this case but we really do need to push for that legislation next year. We have a great case to help us push for it now too :^).

  22. #22
    Regular Member Lord_Kalen's Avatar
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    Uberti's one of the best makers of true to the original Cowboy guns, many are parts interchangable with the 19th century originals.

    If he was carrying it properly he had "5 beans in the wheel" hammer down on an empty chamber ,and almost ran dry. Reloading is single cartridges , being loaded/unloaded via loading gate/ejector rod . Woulda been a pain in a gunfight ..... However Im a fan of packing historical arms myself aswell ..

    A photo is extremely easy to find of these guns use google, they look like a Colt SAA with a protrusion under the barreland are similar mechanicaly , Remington beat colt to the solid frame revolver with a topstrap design so it'd be fair to say the SAA looks like a Rem in that regard .

    Single actions fry internal parts , Ive got a few ... especially when there actions are worked hard


    .45 LC is ballisticly comparable to .45 acp if loaded "modern" with smokeless , and a little less if loaded "cowboy"

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    Lord_Kalen wrote:
    Uberti's one of the best makers of true to the original Cowboy guns, many are parts interchangable with the 19th century originals.

    If he was carrying it properly he had "5 beans in the wheel" hammer down on an empty chamber ,and almost ran dry. Reloading is single cartridges , being loaded/unloaded via loading gate/ejector rod . Woulda been a pain in a gunfight ..... However Im a fan of packing historical arms myself aswell ..

    A photo is extremely easy to find of these guns use google, they look like a Colt SAA with a protrusion under the barreland are similar mechanicaly , Remington beat colt to the solid frame revolver with a topstrap design so it'd be fair to say the SAA looks like a Rem in that regard .

    Single actions fry internal parts , Ive got a few ... especially when there actions are worked hard


    .45 LC is ballisticly comparable to .45 acp if loaded "modern" with smokeless , and a little less if loaded "cowboy"
    Good info, thanks.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    link to the news story? my google fu is weak

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    Thanks for the updates Phil.

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