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Thread: age requirements

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    Im currently in college studying to be in law enforcement. I just recently became interested in the oc laws in virginia and had a few questions. many have already been answered by this site . I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.

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    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    Im currently in college studying to be in law inforcement. I just recently became interested in the oc laws in virginia and had a few questions. many have already been answered by this site . I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
    I believe it is 18 to open-carryand 21 to purchase (so silly).

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    Its very silly when i go to a gunstore i have to take my father just to be able to view a handgun. ive seen so much negativity about young people and open carry im scared to death to exercise my right to do so. It really blisters my behind that im old enough to live on my own and go to college but im not old enought to purchase a handgun to protect my home.

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    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    Its very silly when i go to a gunstore i have to take my father just to be able to view a handgun. ive seen so much negativity about young people and open carry im scared to death to exercise my right to do so. It really blisters my behind that im old enough to live on my own and go to college but im not old enought to purchase a handgun to protect my home.
    Do so through a private sale. You might have a hard time finding someone willing to sell to you because they would still be nervous about it probably, but if you did manage to find someone that would sell you a handgun it would be perfectly legal if done through a private sale from one VA resident to another and not through a FFL.

    Look around on vaguntrader.com

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Your father (or other relative) may also buy a pistol and give it to you as a gift. My oldest daughter celebrated her 18th birthday (with an OCDO Dinner of course) and I gave her a Glock 21. She and I OC nearly everywhere we go. Its nice to have a "back up" OCer when you go out...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    Im currently in college studying to be in law inforcement. I just recently became interested in the oc laws in virginia and had a few questions. many have already been answered by this site . I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
    You may want to include spelling in your studies... I was in Law Enforcement for over 20 years. Spelling, capitalization and punctuation come in handy when writing reports and other professional papers.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    +1...

    I'm in the field too and good writing goes a long way. It helps others to understand what you've said or done clearly. It also goes a long way toward your intellectual reputation as others may (not neccesarily fair, but...) judge you on this as either not too bright or not taking your job seriously. Good luck!


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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    Your father (or other relative) may also buy a pistol and give it to you as a gift.
    or anybody can give you a handgun as a gift - frined, acquaintance, boss at work, etc. Does not have to be a relative - but does have to be a gift - if they go to the gun store because you gave them the money, or because you promised to pay them if they bought it, then the person doing the buying will be perjuring themselves by swearing they are the "actual purchaser."

    Sometime this gets incorrectly (in my view) called a "straw purchase." While the straw purchase term is not really defined in statute, the best use of the term in my view is for when the actual purchaser is a prohibited person and sends a straw to buy the gun.

    In the case of the non-prohibited person who is the actual purchaser who sends an agent to buy the gun as if the agent is the actual purchaser, the funny thing is that as a matter of proerpty law the actual purchaser is the true owner of the gun - it's not clear to me if the gun would even be subject to forfeiture by the true owner even of a criminal case is brought against the buyer.

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    Icetera wrote:
    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    Im currently in college studying to be in law inforcement. I just recently became interested in the oc laws in virginia and had a few questions. many have already been answered by this site . I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
    I believe it is 18 to open-carryand 21 to purchase (so silly).
    You can legally buy a handgun in Virginia at the age of 18 through a private seller. You need not be 21 years of age when dealing with private sales.

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    curtiswr wrote:
    Do so through a private sale. You might have a hard time finding someone willing to sell to you because they would still be nervous about it probably, but if you did manage to find someone that would sell you a handgun it would be perfectly legal if done through a private sale from one VA resident to another and not through a FFL.

    Look around on vaguntrader.com
    Or gunbroker.com. I'm sure there are tons of desirable VA guns there.

    Also, occasionally, someone posts a VA gun for salehere at OCDO. Someone was just selling a S&W 1911 in VA just last month. Those are very nice guns.

    But, as curtiswr points out, some gun sellers might want to discriminate and decline to sell a person under 21. With only two exceptions that I can think of, I would not. Way too many headaches...

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    There seems to be an illogical condition here when it comes to the legality of buying a gun for someone else.

    If it is (1) perfectly legal for one person to privately sell a gun to another (non-prohibited) person, and it is (2) perfectly legal for a non-prohibited person to buy a gun from any FFL dealer, how can the foreknowledge that you intend to sell said gun to the second (again, non-prohibited) person then become an illegal straw purchase?

    TFred


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    TFred wrote:
    There seems to be an illogical condition here when it comes to the legality of buying a gun for someone else.

    If it is (1) perfectly legal for one person to privately sell a gun to another (non-prohibited) person, and it is (2) perfectly legal for a non-prohibited person to buy a gun from any FFL dealer, how can the foreknowledge that you intend to sell said gun to the second (again, non-prohibited) person then become an illegal straw purchase?
    That's why I say it is not - it is merely perjury on the 4473!

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    TF: That, Sir, is the BEST question: When I went to Bass Pro to look at Glocks for Midget's 18th Birthday present, I told the clerk why I was looking. He got really indignant and asked me to leave the store because he wanted no part of a criminal act! I was floored! After a few minutes, he calmed down enough to tell me he felt I was committing a Felony and trying to involve him in it by making a "Straw Purchase".

    I went home after this exchange to look up the definition by Statute in Virginia law and found his understanding to be flawed. Midget is NOT a prohibited person AFTER she turned 18, but was, in fact, one before turning 18. He took the part of the law about "buying a gun for someone else" and ran with it, thereby assuming that EVERY purchase of a firearm MUST be FOR the use of the individual making the purchase.

    I found this statute to be similar and parallel to one the Coast Guard enforces (or did while I was in): A vessel taking 6 (or more) passengers for hire out on the water must be inspected by the Coast Guard AND the Master of said vessel must have a commercial "6-Pack Captain's license" while a boat owner (Joe Boater) may take 6 of his best friends out towatch fireworks or go fishing, but he darn sure better not charge them for the trip!

    Of course, his friends can bring food and beverages (but the master of said vessel must not be under the influence of alcohol) on the trip, no money can change hands (legally).

    Neither statute seems very well-written and is interpreted in different ways by different people. I guess a paper trail is necessary to prove it isn't a "straw-purchase". Do you have to go so far as to make a sworn affadavit attesting to the "gifting" of the weapon?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    Do you have to go so far as to make a sworn affadavit attesting to the "gifting" of the weapon?
    No.

    But as a practical matter, you need to keep your mouth shut when talking to many or mostgun store employees - you can't really blame them for being risk averse to customers talking about "gifts" and "guns for others," can you??

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    I went home after this exchange to look up the definition by Statute in Virginia law and found his understanding to be flawed. Midget is NOT a prohibited person AFTER she turned 18, but was, in fact, one before turning 18. He took the part of the law about "buying a gun for someone else" and ran with it, thereby assuming that EVERY purchase of a firearm MUST be FOR the use of the individual making the purchase.
    I'm not a lawyer:

    I would not call a person under the age of 18 a prohibited person. I would call them a restricted person. As long as the person under the age of 18 possesses or transports the handgun or assault firearm in compliance with the exceptions stated in § 18.2-308.7 then they are not prohibited. A handgun or assault firearm may be sold, bartered, given or furnished to a person under the age of 18 who is not otherwise prohibited under § 18.2-308.1:1, 18.2-308.2, or subsection B of § 18.2-308.2:01 because § 18.2-308.7 does not apply in four scenarios enumerated therein.

    I would argue that persons under the age of 18 could, without any violation of Virginia law on the part of the seller or buyer, purchase the handgun or assault firearm directly from the seller with their own money, as long as they are accompanied by an adult and subsequently transport the firearm in accordance with § 18.2-308.7(2) or § 18.2-308.7(3) followed by § 18.2-308.7(1). This scenario is simplified greatly if the firearm is purchased at a lawful shooting range. Then the purchaser may proceed directly to § 18.2-308.7(1). This is complicated, with the requirement to involve a lawful shooting range or hunt in the purchase process, due to there being no "to or from" clause in § 18.2-308.7(1). The "to or from" clause exists in § 18.2-308.7(2) and § 18.2-308.7(3) so you need those to get home.

    Clear as mud, right?

    I have not considered or referenced any federal law here; only Virginia law. What Mike says is right, though. Just keep your mouth shut around dealers because it's not easy or cheap to get and keep an FFL (I think) so dealers are very risk averse.


    § 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty.

    It shall be unlawful for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport a handgun or assault firearm anywhere in the Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section, "handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made and intended to fire single or multiple projectiles by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand and "assault firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic centerfire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered. A violation of this section shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    This section shall not apply to:
    1. Any person (i) while in his home or on his property; (ii) while in the home or on the property of his parent, grandparent, or legal guardian; or (iii) while on the property of another who has provided prior permission, and with the prior permission of his parent or legal guardian if the person has the landowner's written permission on his person while on such property;
    2. Any person who, while accompanied by an adult, is at, or going to and from, a lawful shooting range or firearms educational class, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported;
    3. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or going to and from a hunting area or preserve, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported; and
    4. Any person while carrying out his duties in the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard of this Commonwealth or any other state.


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    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
    That depends on whether you care abot all firearms or just handguns.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Thundar wrote:
    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
    That depends on whether you care abot all firearms or just handguns.
    meaning?

    At age 18, I can open carry a handgun where legal, and for that matter I can CC a handgun at age 18 on my own property and business (if I owned one).

    I'm not 18 anymore but that's when I bought my first handgun and began to OC.

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    nova wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
    That depends on whether you care abot all firearms or just handguns.
    meaning?

    At age 18, I can open carry a handgun where legal, and for that matter I can CC a handgun at age 18 on my own property and business (if I owned one).
    Um no - see 18.2-308 - you need permit to carry on your own property generally, excpet for home + curtilage & place of business - you yard, fields, rental proerpties, not way - need permit.

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    nova wrote:
    ...and for that matter I can CC a handgun at age 18 on my own property and business (if I owned one).
    Make that "in my own home" rather than "on my own property" and you're good to go. We've discussed the definition of curtilage without resolution. Mike believes it extends about a foot (roughly) from the house along with various other limiting factors, to the point that it might as well not exist. I've found an unending number of citations where "yard" is effectively synonymous with "curtilage," but Mike doesn't buy that.

    Better safe than sorry, go with what Mike says. If you're willing to risk depending on common sense and repeated citations of judicial rulings, feel free to CC in your yard.

    ~ Boyd

    PS: And of course, IANAL.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    armedcitizen90 wrote:
    I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
    That depends on whether you care abot all firearms or just handguns.
    meaning?

    At age 18, I can open carry a handgun where legal, and for that matter I can CC a handgun at age 18 on my own property and business (if I owned one).
    Um no - see 18.2-308 - you need permit to carry on your own property generally, excpet for home + curtilage & place of business - you yard, fields, rental proerpties, not way - need permit.
    Just to be painfully technical: However limited, there is at least one way that a person of any age may lawfully conceal a firearm, whether such property (yard, fields) is his own or even if it is not his own (public hunting lands):

    § 18.2-308(B)[6]
    [this section shall not apply to:]
    Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
    That firearm may be a handgun, provided that hunting with a handgun is permitted at that time and place.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    virginiatuck wrote:
    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    I went home after this exchange to look up the definition by Statute in Virginia law and found his understanding to be flawed. Midget is NOT a prohibited person AFTER she turned 18, but was, in fact, one before turning 18. He took the part of the law about "buying a gun for someone else" and ran with it, thereby assuming that EVERY purchase of a firearm MUST be FOR the use of the individual making the purchase.
    I'm not a lawyer:

    I would not call a person under the age of 18 a prohibited person. I would call them a restricted person. As long as the person under the age of 18 possesses or transports the handgun or assault firearm in compliance with the exceptions stated in § 18.2-308.7 then they are not prohibited. A handgun or assault firearm may be sold, bartered, given or furnished to a person under the age of 18 who is not otherwise prohibited under § 18.2-308.1:1, 18.2-308.2, or subsection B of § 18.2-308.2:01 because § 18.2-308.7 does not apply in four scenarios enumerated therein.

    I would argue that persons under the age of 18 could, without any violation of Virginia law on the part of the seller or buyer, purchase the handgun or assault firearm directly from the seller with their own money, as long as they are accompanied by an adult and subsequently transport the firearm in accordance with § 18.2-308.7(2) or § 18.2-308.7(3) followed by § 18.2-308.7(1). This scenario is simplified greatly if the firearm is purchased at a lawful shooting range. Then the purchaser may proceed directly to § 18.2-308.7(1). This is complicated, with the requirement to involve a lawful shooting range or hunt in the purchase process, due to there being no "to or from" clause in § 18.2-308.7(1). The "to or from" clause exists in § 18.2-308.7(2) and § 18.2-308.7(3) so you need those to get home.

    Clear as mud, right?

    I have not considered or referenced any federal law here
    ; only Virginia law. What Mike says is right, though. Just keep your mouth shut around dealers because it's not easy or cheap to get and keep an FFL (I think) so dealers are very risk averse.


    § 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty.

    It shall be unlawful for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport a handgun or assault firearm anywhere in the Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section, "handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made and intended to fire single or multiple projectiles by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand and "assault firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic centerfire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered. A violation of this section shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    This section shall not apply to:
    1. Any person (i) while in his home or on his property; (ii) while in the home or on the property of his parent, grandparent, or legal guardian; or (iii) while on the property of another who has provided prior permission, and with the prior permission of his parent or legal guardian if the person has the landowner's written permission on his person while on such property;
    2. Any person who, while accompanied by an adult, is at, or going to and from, a lawful shooting range or firearms educational class, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported;
    3. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or going to and from a hunting area or preserve, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported; and
    4. Any person while carrying out his duties in the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard of this Commonwealth or any other state.
    You are correct.... you have not considered nor referenced Federal Law, and, therefore, you should NOT state that an <18 person could purchase their own handgun. You might want to look up 18 USC 922(x) my friend.
    I stand by what I said. I did not say that an <18 person could purchase their own handgun. I said "[...] persons under the age of 18 could, without any violation of Virginia law on the part of the seller or buyer, purchase the handgun or assault firearm directly from the seller with their own money"I clearly stated in my post that this only pertained to Virginia law and that Federal law was not considered.

    My later post about the door-to-door salesman was not accurate; and will be deleted.

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    TF: That, Sir, is the BEST question: When I went to Bass Pro to look at Glocks for Midget's 18th Birthday present, I told the clerk why I was looking. He got really indignant and asked me to leave the store because he wanted no part of a criminal act! I was floored! After a few minutes, he calmed down enough to tell me he felt I was committing a Felony and trying to involve him in it by making a "Straw Purchase".
    If you ever run into this situation again, you should ask the clerk to show you the ATF Form 4473, so that you can go over it together. The first question is, "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?", with a footnote that explains you should answer "yes" if you are purchasing a bona-fide gift.



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    Concealed means concealed, and I define curtilage as the land my home is on, which includes my yard.

    If someone can show me where VA code defines curtilage it'd be much appreciated.

    I don't advocate breaking laws btw.

    EDIT: defintion from Webster's Dictionary...

    curtilage
    One entry found.
    Main Entry: cur·ti·lage Listen to the pronunciation of curtilage
    Pronunciation: \ˈkər-tə-lij\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French curtillage, from curtil garden, curtilage, from curt court
    Date: 14th century
    : a piece of ground (as a yard or courtyard) within the fence surrounding a house

  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    Concealed means concealed, and I define curtilage as the land my home is on, which includes my yard.

    If someone can show me where VA code defines curtilage it'd be much appreciated.

    I don't advocate breaking laws btw.

    EDIT: defintion from Webster's Dictionary...

    curtilage
    One entry found.
    Main Entry: cur·ti·lage Listen to the pronunciation of curtilage
    Pronunciation: ˈkər-tə-lij
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French curtillage, from curtil garden, curtilage, from curt court
    Date: 14th century
    : a piece of ground (as a yard or courtyard) within the fence surrounding a house
    There are lots of definitions, and unfortunately the only one that will matter is the one that the judge gives to the jury at your trial... sadly, we don't have any way to know this before hand... We can probably determine from prior cases what definition would hold up on appeal, however, which is probably what Mike has been referring to in his occasional posts on the matter.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+curtilage

    Many, although not all, seem to key on a fence around the yard, so it leaves the question what if your yard has no fence.

    TFred


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