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age requirements

virginiatuck

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Mike wrote:
nova wrote:
Thundar wrote:
armedcitizen90 wrote:
I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.
That depends on whether you care abot all firearms or just handguns.
meaning?

At age 18, I can open carry a handgun where legal, and for that matter I can CC a handgun at age 18 on my own property and business (if I owned one).
Um no - see 18.2-308 - you need permit to carry on your own property generally, excpet for home + curtilage & place of business - you yard, fields, rental proerpties, not way - need permit.
Just to be painfully technical: However limited, there is at least one way that a person of any age may lawfully conceal a firearm, whether such property (yard, fields) is his own or even if it is not his own (public hunting lands):

§ 18.2-308(B)[6]
[this section shall not apply to:]
Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;

That firearm may be a handgun, provided that hunting with a handgun is permitted at that time and place.
 

virginiatuck

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NavyLT wrote:
virginiatuck wrote:
MSC 45ACP wrote:
I went home after this exchange to look up the definition by Statute in Virginia law and found his understanding to be flawed. Midget is NOT a prohibited person AFTER she turned 18, but was, in fact, one before turning 18. He took the part of the law about "buying a gun for someone else" and ran with it, thereby assuming that EVERY purchase of a firearm MUST be FOR the use of the individual making the purchase.
I'm not a lawyer:

I would not call a person under the age of 18 a prohibited person. I would call them a restricted person. As long as the person under the age of 18 possesses or transports the handgun or assault firearm in compliance with the exceptions stated in § 18.2-308.7 then they are not prohibited. A handgun or assault firearm may be sold, bartered, given or furnished to a person under the age of 18 who is not otherwise prohibited under § 18.2-308.1:1, 18.2-308.2, or subsection B of § 18.2-308.2:01 because § 18.2-308.7 does not apply in four scenarios enumerated therein.

I would argue that persons under the age of 18 could, without any violation of Virginia law on the part of the seller or buyer, purchase the handgun or assault firearm directly from the seller with their own money, as long as they are accompanied by an adult and subsequently transport the firearm in accordance with § 18.2-308.7(2) or § 18.2-308.7(3) followed by § 18.2-308.7(1). This scenario is simplified greatly if the firearm is purchased at a lawful shooting range. Then the purchaser may proceed directly to § 18.2-308.7(1). This is complicated, with the requirement to involve a lawful shooting range or hunt in the purchase process, due to there being no "to or from" clause in § 18.2-308.7(1). The "to or from" clause exists in § 18.2-308.7(2) and § 18.2-308.7(3) so you need those to get home.

Clear as mud, right?

I have not considered or referenced any federal law here
; only Virginia law. What Mike says is right, though. Just keep your mouth shut around dealers because it's not easy or cheap to get and keep an FFL (I think) so dealers are very risk averse.


§ 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport a handgun or assault firearm anywhere in the Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section, "handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made and intended to fire single or multiple projectiles by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand and "assault firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic centerfire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered. A violation of this section shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor.
This section shall not apply to:
1. Any person (i) while in his home or on his property; (ii) while in the home or on the property of his parent, grandparent, or legal guardian; or (iii) while on the property of another who has provided prior permission, and with the prior permission of his parent or legal guardian if the person has the landowner's written permission on his person while on such property;
2. Any person who, while accompanied by an adult, is at, or going to and from, a lawful shooting range or firearms educational class, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported;
3. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or going to and from a hunting area or preserve, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported; and
4. Any person while carrying out his duties in the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard of this Commonwealth or any other state.
You are correct.... you have not considered nor referenced Federal Law, and, therefore, you should NOT state that an <18 person could purchase their own handgun. You might want to look up 18 USC 922(x) my friend.
I stand by what I said. I did not say that an <18 person could purchase their own handgun. I said "[...] persons under the age of 18 could, without any violation of Virginia law on the part of the seller or buyer, purchase the handgun or assault firearm directly from the seller with their own money" I clearly stated in my post that this only pertained to Virginia law and that Federal law was not considered.

My later post about the door-to-door salesman was not accurate; and will be deleted.
 

KBCraig

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MSC 45ACP wrote:
TF: That, Sir, is the BEST question: When I went to Bass Pro to look at Glocks for Midget's 18th Birthday present, I told the clerk why I was looking. He got really indignant and asked me to leave the store because he wanted no part of a criminal act! I was floored! After a few minutes, he calmed down enough to tell me he felt I was committing a Felony and trying to involve him in it by making a "Straw Purchase".

If you ever run into this situation again, you should ask the clerk to show you the ATF Form 4473, so that you can go over it together. The first question is, "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?", with a footnote that explains you should answer "yes" if you are purchasing a bona-fide gift.
 

nova

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Concealed means concealed, and I define curtilage as the land my home is on, which includes my yard.

If someone can show me where VA code defines curtilage it'd be much appreciated.

I don't advocate breaking laws btw.

EDIT: defintion from Webster's Dictionary...

curtilage
One entry found.
Main Entry: cur·ti·lage Listen to the pronunciation of curtilage
Pronunciation: \ˈkər-tə-lij\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French curtillage, from curtil garden, curtilage, from curt court
Date: 14th century
: a piece of ground (as a yard or courtyard) within the fence surrounding a house
 

TFred

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nova wrote:
Concealed means concealed, and I define curtilage as the land my home is on, which includes my yard.

If someone can show me where VA code defines curtilage it'd be much appreciated.

I don't advocate breaking laws btw.

EDIT: defintion from Webster's Dictionary...

curtilage
One entry found.
Main Entry: cur·ti·lage Listen to the pronunciation of curtilage
Pronunciation: ˈkər-tə-lij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French curtillage, from curtil garden, curtilage, from curt court
Date: 14th century
: a piece of ground (as a yard or courtyard) within the fence surrounding a house
There are lots of definitions, and unfortunately the only one that will matter is the one that the judge gives to the jury at your trial... sadly, we don't have any way to know this before hand... We can probably determine from prior cases what definition would hold up on appeal, however, which is probably what Mike has been referring to in his occasional posts on the matter.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+curtilage

Many, although not all, seem to key on a fence around the yard, so it leaves the question what if your yard has no fence.

TFred
 

nova

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TFred wrote:
nova wrote:
Concealed means concealed, and I define curtilage as the land my home is on, which includes my yard.

If someone can show me where VA code defines curtilage it'd be much appreciated.

I don't advocate breaking laws btw.

EDIT: defintion from Webster's Dictionary...

curtilage
One entry found.
Main Entry: cur·ti·lage Listen to the pronunciation of curtilage
Pronunciation: ˈkər-tə-lij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French curtillage, from curtil garden, curtilage, from curt court
Date: 14th century
: a piece of ground (as a yard or courtyard) within the fence surrounding a house
There are lots of definitions, and unfortunately the only one that will matter is the one that the judge gives to the jury at your trial... sadly, we don't have any way to know this before hand... We can probably determine from prior cases what definition would hold up on appeal, however, which is probably what Mike has been referring to in his occasional posts on the matter.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+curtilage

Many, although not all, seem to key on a fence around the yard, so it leaves the question what if your yard has no fence.

TFred
from your link it could be anything from the whole property with no mention of a fence to a small portion of land around the house.

hmmm. when can laws be easy to interpret? :?
 

GWRedDragon

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I suspect that the definition used would be similar to the definition in other areas of law (eg. reasonable warrantless search): curtilage is a fenced-in area surrounding a dwelling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Dunn

Here is the quote on that wiki page, from the case:


[C]urtilage questions should be resolved with particular reference to four factors: the proximity of the area claimed to be curtilage to the home, whether the area is included within an enclosure surrounding the home, the nature of the uses to which the area is put, and the steps taken by the resident to protect the area from observation by people passing by. We do not suggest that combining these factors produces a finely tuned formula that, when mechanically applied, yields a "correct" answer to all extent-of-curtilage questions. Rather, these factors are useful analytical tools only to the degree that, in any given case, they bear upon the centrally relevant consideration — whether the area in question is so intimately tied to the home itself that it should be placed under the home's "umbrella" of Fourth Amendment protection. Applying these factors to respondent's barn and to the area immediately surrounding it, we have little difficulty in concluding that this area lay outside the curtilage of the ranch house."
 

Chuckles

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Sterling, Virginia, USA
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Icetera wrote:
armedcitizen90 wrote:
Im currently in college studying to be in law inforcement. I just recently became interested in the oc laws in virginia and had a few questions. many have already been answered by this site . I know you have to be 21 to carry concealed how old do you have to be to open carry in virginia.

I believe it is 18 to open-carryand 21 to purchase (so silly).
Before you are 21 you can also vote to decide the future of our country, you can joined the armed forces to defend our freedom, and you can, on your current path, serve and protect your community, butyou are not allowed to buy yourself a handgun or consume alcohol. Makes perfect sense to me...
 

TexasNative

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GWRedDragon wrote:
I suspect that the definition used would be similar to the definition in other areas of law (eg. reasonable warrantless search): curtilage is a fenced-in area surrounding a dwelling.
The problem with using Fourth Amendment cases to expound on permit-less concealed carry in one's curtilage is that the reasoning necessarily follows a different path.

In Fourth Amendment cases, whether or not there's a fence or some other means of making your "curtilage" unobservable to the common passerby is very important. For this reason, there's much discussion of sight lines and visibility and masking and so forth. For concealed carry, all of that is very much a non sequitur.

And as Fred said, the most important factor is something you can't predict: how the trial judge (and appellate judges, if it goes to them) defines the term.

~ Boyd
 

Mike

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TexasNative wrote:
GWRedDragon wrote:
I suspect that the definition used would be similar to the definition in other areas of law (eg. reasonable warrantless search): curtilage is a fenced-in area surrounding a dwelling.
The problem with using Fourth Amendment cases to expound on permit-less concealed carry in one's curtilage is that the reasoning necessarily follows a different path.

In Fourth Amendment cases, whether or not there's a fence or some other means of making your "curtilage" unobservable to the common passerby is very important. For this reason, there's much discussion of sight lines and visibility and masking and so forth. For concealed carry, all of that is very much a non sequitur.

And as Fred said, the most important factor is something you can't predict: how the trial judge (and appellate judges, if it goes to them) defines the term.

~ Boyd
Curtilage is a very vague term - that's why you should not rely on it as a defense. Not only must the area be very close to the home, it must be integral to the home, where family life occurs and where a reasonable expectation of privacy can be asserted with a straight face - a fence is probably not enough - a very high fence, or hedge, that you cannot see thru, and very very close to the home, and better yet - LOCKED and not many yards away - very very close. This is not a term to play with.

If you do not have apermit to conceal in Virginia, then don;t carry concealed outside your home - the police may enter open fields (your yard)) and investigate anything they want; with reasonable suspicion they may seize you; with a view toward officer saftey if they can articulate that you might be "armed and presently dangerous" they can pat you down for and seize weapons; if you have a concealed weapon without permit, you are guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor the first time, FELONY the 2d time.
 

TexasNative

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Again, you're applying Fourth Amendment concerns and reasoning to something that has nothing to do with the Fourth Amendment, Mike, but I'll agree that the safer course is to have the permit if you're going to CC anywhere outside the home (meaning the structure, not the entire property). This is one of the reasons why I'm glad I have my CHP.

~ Boyd
 

Mike

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TexasNative wrote:
Again, you're applying Fourth Amendment concerns and reasoning to something that has nothing to do with the Fourth Amendment
Does not matter - the meaning of term curtilage is bound up in your right to privacy in your home - that's where the legislature allows you to conceal - you home and curtilage - without permit. The Fourth Amendment merely shows great respect for home/curtilage.
 
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