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Thread: a memo from frontsight

  1. #1
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    Dr. Ignatius Piazza
    Founder and Director
    www.frontsight.com

    National Concealed Carry Possible with New Bill, But
    Needs Your Support... vote is imminent next week!


    Dear tom,

    There is so much misinformation circulating the
    Internet these days regarding proposed gun control
    that I do not get involved until I hear from my
    friend Larry Pratt and his "No Compromise" group
    of hard working patriots at Gun Owners of America.

    Here is the straight scoop on what you need to do
    RIGHT NOW to help a REAL National Concealed Carry Law
    get passed.

    Follow GOA's request to write your Senators TODAY.
    (sample letter written for you below)

    Please read this information from Gun Owners of America
    and act on it today...

    Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
    8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
    Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
    http://www.gunowners.org

    Friday, July 17, 2009

    A vote to protect your right to travel out-of-state with
    a firearm could come to a vote next week -- even as
    early as Monday!

    Senators John Thune and David Vitter are the sponsors of
    S. 845 -- a bill that will establish concealed carry
    reciprocity amongst the several states.

    Senators Thune and Vitter offered the bill as an
    amendment (#1618) to the Department of Defense
    authorization bill (H.R. 2647).

    This provision will use the constitutional authority
    allowing Congress to enforce "full faith and credit"
    across the country, so that each state respects the
    "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings" of
    every other state (Article IV).

    The benefit of the Thune/Vitter legislation is that --
    unlike other, competing measures -- it would protect the
    right of any U.S. citizen to carry out of state
    (regardless of whether he possesses a permit), as
    long as he is authorized to carry in his home state.
    This is important because of states like Vermont and
    Alaska, where residents can carry concealed without
    prior approval or permission from the state... in
    other words, without a permit!

    ACTION: Please urge your Senators to vote YES on the
    Thune/Vitter concealed carry reciprocity amendment that
    will be offered to the Department of Defense
    authorization bill and NO on any modifying amendments.
    This vote could come as early as Monday, so please act
    on this right away!

    You can use the Gun Owners Legislative Action Center at
    http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm to send your
    Senators the pre-written e-mail message below.

    ----- Pre-written letter -----

    Dear Senator:

    Please support the Thune/Vitter amendment to the
    Department of Defense authorization bill. This amendment
    will protect the right of citizens to carry firearms
    outside of their home state without violating the rights
    of the other states. Thus, the reciprocity language
    masterfully protects the principle of federalism while
    also promoting Second Amendment rights.

    A person's right to defend himself and his family should
    not end at the border of his state.

    I urge you to vote for the Thune/Vitter concealed carry
    amendment and to oppose any modifying actions that seek
    to weaken their amendment.

    Sincerely,

    (Place your Name, City, and State here)

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    And if you act fast you can receive 5 Days of
    Training and a 30 State Concealed Weapons Permit
    for pennies-on-the-dollar Plus a New Gun and
    Tactical Gear at no charge!

    See: http://www.frontsight.com/free-gun.asp

    I look forward to seeing you as a student at Front Sight!

    Sincerely,

    Dr. Ignatius Piazza
    Founder and Director
    Front Sight Firearms Training Institute
    P. O. Box 2619
    Aptos, CA 95001
    http://www.frontsight.com
    info@frontsight.com
    1.800.987.7719




    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot"
    -Joe Deters, Hamilton County Prosecutor


    Now I lay me down to sleep
    Beside my bed a Tuarus I keep
    If I awake to find you inside
    A coroner's van will be your next ride.

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    iceman71 wrote:
    ..... it would protect the
    right of any U.S. citizen to carry out of state
    (regardless of whether he possesses a permit), as
    long as he is authorized to carry in his home state.Â*
    Would this then make it illegal for me to CC in any other state because my state doesn't allow me to CC.

    Reciprocity works both ways.

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    I call BULLSCHITT on frontsight & GOA's description/interpretation of this bill! It still would leave the residents of WI & IL without the ability to carry in other states and their home state unless they are able to purchase a non-resident permit for each individual state they may visit and it still would not be allowable for us to carry concealed.

    I do not know about the rest of you, but how would you feelif people residing in any of the other 48 states that have CCW can legally carry concealed in our state, But we still do not have the privilege?

    Am I being selfish? Maybe. But WTF, seriously folks.

    I discussedthis topic in a different thread by comparing this bill to thecurrent MI laws, If you'revisiting MI, and your home state issues you a permit to carry, you can then carry in MI open or concealed. But because WI does not require a permit or license system we cannot legally O-C in MI even though we can O-C here, and residents of other states can too, the only requirement is having some sort of permit from your home state be it for O-C or C-C in MI. Now they want a national reciprocity law to do the same thing? We will be doubly screwed IMO.

    Then we have some people stating this is the first step towards national gun registration, and this is a backhanded way to get people to agree to it. What do you think? crackpot theory? or does it have merit?

    EDIT: This subject has got me so tweaked that I sent a message to GOA voicing my concerns about WI & IL residents still being screwed with this bills intentions.I statedthat I vehemently oppose this bill until it allows WI (And IL residents) the option to carry concealed or to not need a permit to do so in our own and in other states.

    Lets look at FL's laws, we as WI residents are legally allowed to conceal a loaded firearm in our vehicle as long as it is encased in a glove compartment or other container, but still be at theready for immediate access. Having a loaded pistol in reach while traveling FL has it's benefits. That state seems to attract criminals from all area's. I just wish I did not need to leave it in the vehicle when I am outside of it. But they do not allow open-carry in FL, but they sure have a great castle doctrine!

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    Legislation enacted with the stroke of a pen is rescinded as easily. The several sovereign States' Rights is a fine tarpit (teergruben) for Federal meddling. The best government is the least government.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Yep, IL & WI still screwed for concealed carry.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Galt's Gulch? Can it be seen from the air?



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    Only when the beam is down.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Nutczak wrote:
    I call BULLSCHITT on frontsight & GOA's description/interpretation of this bill! It still would leave the residents of WI & IL without the ability to carry in other states and their home state unless they are able to purchase a non-resident permit for each individual state they may visit and it still would not be allowable for us to carry concealed.
    It does not negate current reciprocity recognized with non-resident permits. We can still get FL, UT, MN permits and enjoy carry in those states which recognize them (non-resident permits).

    Since the 2nd Amendment has not been incorporated to all of the states and the SCOTUS still recognizes States' rights to restrict firearms we will not be able to CCW in WIuntil Doyle gets dumped.

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:
    I call BULLSCHITT on frontsight & GOA's description/interpretation of this bill! It still would leave the residents of WI & IL without the ability to carry in other states and their home state unless they are able to purchase a non-resident permit for each individual state they may visit and it still would not be allowable for us to carry concealed.
    It does not negate current reciprocity recognized with non-resident permits. We can still get FL, UT, MN permits and enjoy carry in those states which recognize them (non-resident permits).

    Since the 2nd Amendment has not been incorporated to all of the states and the SCOTUS still recognizes States' rights to restrict firearms we will not be able to CCW in WIuntil Doyle gets dumped.
    So you do not see a problem with this bill? All other legal citizens of the USA except for WI & IL, only need to purchase theirpermission slip from one state, the one they reside in. But residents of WI & IL will still be required to purchase a permit to carry for each individual state they may visit! What is the average cost of obtaining a non-resident permit?
    Now multiply that costtimes 50 and also consider the time it would take to get all those permits and my complaints should be very easy to understand.

    Hey America, you'll all get to carry your firearm in WIso you canpoint and laugh at anyone with a WI license plate on their car becuase their are 2nd rate citizens and do not have the same rights as you! Oh, thanks for visiting!

  10. #10
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    I say pass it and then litigate it under the equal protection or privilege & immunities clause of the 14th. If you lose on that it would probably not be sustainable under those provisions anyway. All could change under 2A incorporation. At least until litigated it would help millions and leave IL & WI no worse than we are now.

    For some reason many in the 2A community are much more confident this might pass than I.

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    Not to mention this is also a ploy by the owners of Front Sight to target people who are very eager to obtain a CCW permit. There is something screwy going on here. It is definitely all about the money with these guys. They are preying on law abiding citizens and trying to mislead them into thinking they need a permit, registration or license to exercise their Constitutional Right to bear arms.

    I for one will not support any legislation for permitted CCW or any legislation which trades CCW for OCW.

    Also, as far as OCing in Michigan goes, it is my understanding that OC is legal in Michigan and I have open carried before in Michigan with out an issue. You can not carry concealed unless you have a permit from your home state or the state of Michigan. But you can OC is does not state that you can not OC.

    Now unless something has changed I believe you still can even if you are a non resident as this is a right under the constitution. Provided you are legally able to carry. (Not a Felon)

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Not to mention this is also a ploy by the owners of Front Sight to target people who are very eager to obtain a CCW permit. There is something screwy going on here. It is definitely all about the money with these guys. They are preying on law abiding citizens and trying to mislead them into thinking they need a permit, registration or license to exercise their Constitutional Right to bear arms.

    I for one will not support any legislation for permitted CCW or any legislation which trades CCW for OCW.

    Also, as far as OCing in Michigan goes, it is my understanding that OC is legal in Michigan and I have open carried before in Michigan with out an issue. You can not carry concealed unless you have a permit from your home state or the state of Michigan. But you can OC is does not state that you can not OC.

    Now unless something has changed I believe you still can even if you are a non resident as this is a right under the constitution. Provided you are legally able to carry. (Not a Felon)
    I researched MI's laws pretty thouroughly, Although I cannot find a specific statute that states "Non-residents cannot open-carry" it always goes back to them honoring all resident C-C permits from other states.
    So I spokewith the "gun law specialist" with the MI state police, I was told that I will be arrested and charged if I do not have a permit of some sort from WI. When i countered with 'Wisconsin does not have a permit system" I was then told I cannot possess a irearm in MI unless I was hunting with a valid MI license or at a certified shooting range.
    All this even though there is no statute prohibiting O-C for no residents. I would love to challenge it, but I cannot afford incarceration or legal fees at the monent.

    I even brought this up in the MI specific thread, and they cannot find any way to get around MI's current laws.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    I even brought this up in the MI specific thread, and they cannot find any way to get around MI's current laws.
    I agree it is a sticky situation. While the law does not specifically say you can not OC it also does not specifically say you can. Although I can not guarantee it, I do believe you would win that one in court.

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:
    I even brought this up in the MI specific thread, and they cannot find any way to get around MI's current laws.
    I agree it is a sticky situation. While the law does not specifically say you can not OC it also does not specifically say you can. Although I can not guarantee it, I do believe you would win that one in court.
    Not sticky at all. Wisconsin law doesn't state that we can open carry. The only reason we can is that state law doesn't say we can't. Would be the same there.

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    Woodchuck wrote:
    Not sticky at all. Wisconsin law doesn't state that we can open carry. The only reason we can is that state law doesn't say we can't. Would be the same there.
    Hmmm, isn't the State Constitution the supreme law of the state?

    In which is clearly stated our Right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes.
    Therefore, the law says we can bear arms.

    It is much the same as the legislation on the table to promote nationalized CCW.
    Meaning, if what you say is true then no one would be able to carry CCW in Wisconsin whether they had a permit or not from another state as Wisconsin does not issue permits.
    However the 2nd Amendment clearly states that our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. This applies to all Americans not just residents of Michigan.
    While I agree you absolutely could not carry concealed in Michigan. I can not find any MCL or statute stating you can not OC if you are from out of state.

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Woodchuck wrote:
    Not sticky at all. Wisconsin law doesn't state that we can open carry. The only reason we can is that state law doesn't say we can't. Would be the same there.
    Hmmm, isn't the State Constitution the supreme law of the state?

    Try open carrying into your local courthouse and see if you are "infringed" upon.

    In which is clearly stated our Right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes.
    Therefore, the law says we can bear arms.

    It is much the same as the legislation on the table to promote nationalized CCW.
    Meaning, if what you say is true then no one would be able to carry CCW in Wisconsin whether they had a permit or not from another state as Wisconsin does not issue permits.
    However the 2nd Amendment clearly states that our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. This applies to all Americans not just residents of Michigan.
    While I agree you absolutely could not carry concealed in Michigan. I can not find any MCL or statute stating you can not OC if you are from out of state.
    My point exactly. The law doesn't state that you can't, therefore you can.

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    Woodchuck wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    Woodchuck wrote:
    Not sticky at all. Wisconsin law doesn't state that we can open carry. The only reason we can is that state law doesn't say we can't. Would be the same there.
    Hmmm, isn't the State Constitution the supreme law of the state?

    Try open carrying into your local courthouse and see if you are "infringed" upon.

    In which is clearly stated our Right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes.
    Therefore, the law says we can bear arms.

    It is much the same as the legislation on the table to promote nationalized CCW.
    Meaning, if what you say is true then no one would be able to carry CCW in Wisconsin whether they had a permit or not from another state as Wisconsin does not issue permits.
    However the 2nd Amendment clearly states that our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. This applies to all Americans not just residents of Michigan.
    While I agree you absolutely could not carry concealed in Michigan. I can not find any MCL or statute stating you can not OC if you are from out of state.
    My point exactly. The law doesn't state that you can't, therefore you can.
    I jumped on the Michigan site before a trip last weekend. I was told that I needed to have a card of any sort, that showed that I had registered myself as a gun owner to be able to carry open. I was told that a person from Ill. (with the Ill. gun owners card) could carry in Michigan, even though there own state wont let them. I was told the sole reason was that even in Ill. they are finger-printed, and back-ground checked. Soooo, I did not open carry() in Mich.

    Now tell me I was all wrong... Guess I might carry open next trip up...???

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    Nutczak wrote:
    So you do not see a problem with this bill? All other legal citizens of the USA except for WI & IL, only need to purchase theirpermission slip from one state, the one they reside in. But residents of WI & IL will still be required to purchase a permit to carry for each individual state they may visit! What is the average cost of obtaining a non-resident permit?
    Now multiply that costtimes 50 and also consider the time it would take to get all those permits and my complaints should be very easy to understand.
    The bill is a compromise between the national government forcing its way onto the states and the states retaining its rights. If they are going to force the states to do something, I agree that they should force IL and WI to recognize ANY CCW permit issued by another state. Also,the bill should force states to recognize non-resident permits as well as resident permits issued by any state.

    What I pointed out is that this bill does not negate the current reciprocity for non-resident permits. If you have a FL, MN, UT non resident permit, you can carry in the majority of the states with or without this bill passing. What this bill does not give us is nation wide carry especially in our home state.

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    We are talking aboutS 845 right?
    S 845 IS
    To amend chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, to allow citizens who have concealed carry permits from the State in which they reside to carry concealed firearms in another State that grants concealed carry permits, if the individual complies with the laws of the State.IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

    April 21, 2009

    Mr. THUNE (for himself, Mr. BARRASSO, Mr. BEGICH, Mr. BENNETT, Mr. BROWNBACK, Mr. BURR, Mr. CHAMBLISS, Mr. COBURN, Mr. COCHRAN, Mr. CRAPO, Mr. DEMINT, Mr. ENSIGN, Mr. ENZI, Mr. GRAHAM, Mr. GRASSLEY, Mr. HATCH, Mr. INHOFE, Mr. ISAKSON, Mr. MARTINEZ, Mr. RISCH, Mr. ROBERTS, Mr. VITTER, and Mr. WICKER) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    To amend chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, to allow citizens who have concealed carry permits from the State in which they reside to carry concealed firearms in another State that grants concealed carry permits, if the individual complies with the laws of the State.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    This Act may be cited as the ‘Respecting States Rights and Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2009’.

    SEC. 2. RECIPROCITY FOR THE CARRYING OF CERTAIN CONCEALED FIREARMS.

    (a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926C the following:

    ‘Sec. 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms

    ‘Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof:

    ‘(1) A person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of any State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm, may carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the terms of the license or permit in any State that allows its residents to carry concealed firearms, subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried.

    ‘(2) A person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and is otherwise than as described in paragraph (1) entitled to carry a concealed firearm in and pursuant to the law of the State in which the person resides, may carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the laws of the State in which the person resides in any State that allows its residents to carry concealed firearms, subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried.’.

    (b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for chapter 44 of title 18 is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926C the following:

    ‘926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms.’.

    How does this NOT apply to WI residents? It seems to me that (1) allows us to get a permit from another state like MN so that we can carry in any other state. It doesn't allow us to carry in Wisconsin but allows us to carry in most of the other states. (2) reads to me as if it is talking about people from Alaska or Vermont so that they may be allowed to carry in other states without getting a permit.

    Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Also, as far as OCing in Michigan goes, it is my understanding that OC is legal in Michigan and I have open carried before in Michigan with out an issue.
    Edit: Question on relevant statute withdrawn. I see someone's checked into it pretty thoroughly above.

    Disregard


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    WIG19 wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    Also, as far as OCing in Michigan goes, it is my understanding that OC is legal in Michigan and I have open carried before in Michigan with out an issue.
    Do you happen to have a statute on that, or is MI law also mute on the subject?
    Yes I do:



    FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

    123.1103 Permissible prohibitions or regulation.
    Sec. 3.
    This act does not prohibit a local unit of government from doing either of the following:
    (a) Prohibiting or regulating conduct with a pistol or other firearm that is a criminal offense under state law.
    (b) Prohibiting or regulating the transportation, carrying, or possession of pistols and other firearms by employees of that local unit of government in the course of their employment with that local unit of government.

    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

    123.1104 Prohibiting discharge of pistol or other firearm.
    Sec. 4.
    This act does not prohibit a city or a charter township from prohibiting the discharge of a pistol or other firearm within the jurisdiction of that city or charter township.

    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

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    Getting back on topic, Front Sight's course also seems a little pricey. Essentially you are paying for the hand gun, they are giving you nothing.

    It would be cheaper to take a State approved fire arms course at a technical college.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    How does this NOT apply to WI residents? It seems to me that (1) allows us to get a permit from another state like MN so that we can carry in any other state. It doesn't allow us to carry in Wisconsin but allows us to carry in most of the other states. (2) reads to me as if it is talking about people from Alaska or Vermont so that they may be allowed to carry in other states without getting a permit.

    Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
    I believe you are reading it right. I missed that part in 1. It appears as though Non-resident permits are part of this after all.....

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    ‘(2) A person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and is otherwise than as described in paragraph (1) entitled to carry a concealed firearm in and pursuant to the law of the State in which the person resides, may carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the laws of the State in which the person resides in any State that allows its residents to carry concealed firearms, subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried.’.

    Am I reading this wrong or does this disqualify Wisconsin Residents?

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    ‘(2) A person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and is otherwise than as described in paragraph (1) entitled to carry a concealed firearm in and pursuant to the law of the State in which the person resides, may carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the laws of the State in which the person resides in any State that allows its residents to carry concealed firearms, subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried.’.

    Am I reading this wrong or does this disqualify Wisconsin Residents?
    The part I highlighted and underlined will still keep wisconsinites from carrying in other states, unless you hold a non-resident permit from that state, or you have a non-resident permit from another state and the state you are visiting accepts non-resident permits (slim pickens there)

    So basically this bill does nothing for WI or IL residents, and it still does not allow anyone else to legally carry concealed in WI or IL.
    The description of the bill providedby GOA is very misleading becuase it states a"50 State reciprocity" situation.

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