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Thread: Explain to me HOW to open carry in Utah

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    Can you please explain to me how to legally open carry a fire arm.

    I have a .357 five shot revolver. I am to remove one round and set my spin as to where the first click will not fire. Is that correct.

    Also, can someone explain to me the term "loaded". That is referring to the chamber and not the magazine correct?

    The holster that I use, does it have to LOCK the gun in? My holster slips into my pants allowing the gun to hand on the outside. Also the gun is kept in the holster by friction. I can pull it out of the holster but it wont fall out of the holster.

    Any information will be greatly appreciated. I'd love to start carrying TODAY.

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    If you do not have a permit, you can't have a round in line with the barrel, nor the next chamber that is going to come in line with the barrel. "Loaded" in Utah means 1 action to fire. So with a revolver (modern revolver) if you pull the trigger it is going to turn the cylinder and fire that round. Hence not being able to carry with one in the next chamber. For a pistol (semi auto) you cannot have one in the chamber, but you can have a full magazine to be "unloaded". So if you pull the trigger, it's not going to fire. --Semi auto.... 1. rack the slide, 2. pull the trigger (that is your two actions). Revolver-- Pull the trigger twice to fire.
    If you have a permit id doesn't matter, you can carry loaded or unloaded. I hope this helps.

    edit- here is the law:

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.


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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are going the Non-Permit way to openly carry a firearm. Make sure to Observe Schools Federal areas post office. And Trax and Uta Busses. All not carry areas without a valid CFP

    They can land you in a world of trouble if not well versed in Utah law. Know the law and don't expect law enforcement to be experts in Utah law.
    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    So with my five shot 357 revolver, I can only carry three rounds? If I carry four, one is going to be lined up with the barrel, but when i pull the trigger, its not going to shot because of the empty space.

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Correct
    Zach
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    Actually, it depends on whether it is a single or double action revolver. If it is single action, only the chamber under the hammer has to be empty. If it is a double action revolver, both the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber have to be empty.

    Now, this is assuming that the revolver always has a chamber under the hammer. I own a single action revolver that has "safety" hammer resting positions between chambers. In this case, I don't have to have any empty chambers as long as I have the hammer resting between chambers.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Now wait a second here, the law says there can't be one in the firing position.

    Now, I would have to say that the firing position would be any position in which the round would be fired by a trigger pull.

    Now, in every weapon mentioned in this law, with the exception of double action revolvers, the firing position is in line with the barrel.

    But in double action revolvers, it is impossible to fire the round in line with the barrel, unless the hammer is already back, or the weapon malfunctions.

    As this is the case, I contend that it would satisfy the first and second sections of the law to have one under the hammer, but not in the next position.

    Of course, IANAL, and it is definitely a safer bet to do it the widely accepted method, you know down two rounds.

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    that would suck. if i get robbed by four thugs with guns i can only shoot three lol. looks like i need to get a real pistol. but my 357 is awesome. i love the look of it. i think revolvers are hott. dunno why.

    anybody wanna trade for a .357 lol

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Use it as a back up. It would do well being loaded in your car. With a Semi on the hip you would be covered and legal.
    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    thx997303 wrote:
    Now, I would have to say that the firing position would be any position in which the round would be fired by a trigger pull.
    That's the problem with this silly law, "firing position" is not clearly defined. Your interpretation might be different than that of an LEO or judge.

    thx997303 wrote:
    Now, in every weapon mentioned in this law, with the exception of double action revolvers, the firing position is in line with the barrel.
    No, the law does not mention anything about the firing positionbeing in line with the barrel.

    bnmyers82wrote:
    I have a .357 five shot revolver.
    Can you tell us what kind of revolver it is? I am assuming that it is capable of firing both single and double action.

    I agree withrpynethat if you have a single action only revolver, then only the round under the hammer needs to be missing.

    HOWEVER, it seems that the majority though is always two rounds removed from all revolvers, so it's safe to assume that most cops probably think the same way.

    The best way to avoid this confusion is to get an auto-loading pistol or a permit from any state.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    bnmyers82 wrote:
    Can you please explain to me how to legally open carry a fire arm.

    I have a .357 five shot revolver. I am to remove one round and set my spin as to where the first click will not fire. Is that correct.

    Also, can someone explain to me the term "loaded". That is referring to the chamber and not the magazine correct?

    The holster that I use, does it have to LOCK the gun in? My holster slips into my pants allowing the gun to hand on the outside. Also the gun is kept in the holster by friction. I can pull it out of the holster but it wont fall out of the holster.

    Any information will be greatly appreciated. I'd love to start carrying TODAY.
    Here is some helpful information:

    http://freeutah.org/docs/UtahGunLaw2009b2.pdf

    http://freeutah.org/docs/UtahGunLaw2009b3.pdf

    http://freeutah.org/docs/UtahGunLaw2009st.pdf


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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    SGT Jensen, you are right, it doesn't say firing position is inline with the barrel, but in most rifles, shotguns, autoloaders etc, the firing position is in line with the barrel. According to my understanding of their operational mechanics.

    But I don't see it this way with double action revolvers.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    SGT Jensen, you are right, it doesn't say firing position is inline with the barrel, but in most rifles, shotguns, autoloaders etc, the firing position is in line with the barrel. According to my understanding of their operational mechanics.

    But I don't see it this way with double action revolvers.
    I will respectfully disagree. A round in line with the barrel is clearly "in firing position." That is the position from which a round is typically fired and so that is "firing position."

    Now, whether or not it could be fired might depend on whether or not the hammer is currently back. But it might also be possible to have that round fire due to a malfunction such as the cylinder not rotating or dropping a gun that is not drop safe, etc. But the language in the law does not contemplate whether or not the round "in firing position" can be fired, only the position.

    The law is not ideal. I'd love to see the whole loaded vs unloaded distinction go away as we allow full up OC and CC Alaska Carry (but without all of their off limits locations). But it is a darn sight better for those who carry--or even transport long guns in cars without benefit of a permit--than would be the typical definition of "loaded" and "unloaded."

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Charles.

    Except the part of it being better than cali unloaded, I agree there, and yes seeing this law repealled would be excellent.

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    thx997303 wrote:

    Except the part of it being better than cali unloaded, I agree there, and yes seeing this law repealled would be excellent.
    As long as it is repealed in the direction of not making loaded a crime without a permit.

    For all the confusion the current language may cause, I'd hate to have to use the standard definition of "loaded" so long as it remains a crime to carry a "loaded" gun in public without a permit.

    On a related issue, it would be great to get rid the "contains any ammunition" language that increases the penalty for concealing a gun without a permit and instead go with the definition of "loaded" used elsewhere....at least until we can just get full blown Alaska Carry.

    As far as disagreeing about what does or does not constitute a round being "in firing position" and thus causing a gun to be "loaded," I'd hope anyone who cares to the adopt your more liberal (NOT intended as any reference to political leanings) reading of that language will carefully weigh to potential risks and costs of being wrong. I might go so far as to suggest that such resources might be better devoted to simply working to get the law against "loaded" guns repealed outright.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    I agree that anyone who wants to view the loaded issue for double action revolvers similar to the way I view it, they should be aware that my view is not widely accepted. And therefore it is a lot more risky.

    And I actually would prefer the loaded prohibition and the definition laws to be repealed.

    Hence unlicensed loaded open carry.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    I agree that anyone who wants to view the loaded issue for double action revolvers similar to the way I view it, they should be aware that my view is not widely accepted. And therefore it is a lot more risky.

    And I actually would prefer the loaded prohibition and the definition laws to be repealed.

    Hence unlicensed loaded open carry.
    I agree with repealing the loaded ban, but I would leave the loaded definition in place, otherwise we are likely to end up with a definition like Kalifornia.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    What other laws need the definition of loaded? It seems that when it comes to concealed carry, the definition of loaded doesn't matter.

    Hmmm, I guess it might be easier to repeal the loaded prohibition while leaving the definition in place as a safeguard to future legislation.

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    Leaving the definition in place might make it easier to repeal the prohibition, but my major reasoning was that it leaves a legal definition in place for future possible court or legislative interpretation. Utah has the best definition of "unloaded" anywhere.


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    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... As long as you aren't on a public street, or a posted prohibited area it doesn't matter anyway... Load 'er up. For instance I'm going into bear country this weekend with a bunch of guys in the Boulder Mountains. We're gonna be open carrying (for bear and other protection). We'll be carrying fully loaded revolvers regardless if we have a permit or not.

    Here is the link to the applicable law: http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getC...code=76-10-505

    Btw.. I agree with Charles. Firing position includes under the hammer on a revolver.


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    combatcarry wrote:
    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... As long as you aren't on a public street, or a posted prohibited area it doesn't matter anyway... Load 'er up. For instance I'm going into bear country this weekend with a bunch of guys in the Boulder Mountains. We're gonna be open carrying (for bear and other protection). We'll be carrying fully loaded revolvers regardless if we have a permit or not.

    Here is the link to the applicable law: http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getC...code=76-10-505

    Btw.. I agree with Charles. Firing position includes under the hammer on a revolver.
    That's how I look at it- load 'er up!(as long as the place isnt a National Park)... This was all i could find:

    76-10-511. Possession of loaded firearm at residence or on real property authorized.
    Except for persons described in Section 76-10-503 and 18 U.S.C. Sec. 922(g) and as otherwise prescribed in this part, a person may have a loaded firearm:
    (1) at the person's place of residence, including any temporary residence or camp; or
    (2) on the person's real property.


    76-10-504.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section
    41-6a-102.



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    combatcarry wrote:
    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... As long as you aren't on a public street, or a posted prohibited area it doesn't matter anyway... Load 'er up. For instance I'm going into bear country this weekend with a bunch of guys in the Boulder Mountains. We're gonna be open carrying (for bear and other protection). We'll be carrying fully loaded revolvers regardless if we have a permit or not.

    Here is the link to the applicable law: http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getC...code=76-10-505

    Btw.. I agree with Charles. Firing position includes under the hammer on a revolver.
    You are correct. The prohibition against carrying a loaded firearm only applies to public streets and prohibited locations.

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    Ok, a 5-shot revolver (SA or DA) does not matter fro what I am thinking to legally have 4 rounds in that gun and still be legal.

    Carry with the hammer back on an empty cylinder, the first pull of the trigger will drop it on the empty cylinder, the second pull will rotate the cylinder to a live chamber,

    You then have your "2" action covered to fire, right? First trigger pulls goes "click" 2nd pull goes "bang" you do not have a round inline with the barrel if it os done this way, and you still get 4 shots without needing a reload.

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    I have been unable to find any legal opinion or case law on the subject other than what is in the Utah Code:

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
    Every instructor, LEO or attorney I have ever talked to about it has explained it as a single action revolver requiring the chamber under the hammer to be empty and a double action revolver requiring the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber to be empty.

    So, you are left with your own interpretation. It may be technically accurate but you could end up having to get a court to rule on it.

  25. #25
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    rpyne wrote:
    But be careful with that definition.

    As written, public street is defined as:

    10-9a-103
    . Definitions.

    As used in this chapter:


    (49) "Street" means a public right-of-way, including a highway, avenue, boulevard, parkway, road, lane, walk, alley, viaduct, subway, tunnel, bridge, public easement, or other way.

    Unless a different definition is given elsewhere in code, this is likely to be the definition used in any gun case where "public street" is in question. In practical application, "public street" is very likely to include ALL public property other than obvious uninhabited/unincorporated type areas. It might also be read to include private property that constitutes places of public accommodation such as stores and their parking lots and the like unless a person has obtained specific permission from the property owner to carry a gun loaded there.

    Those who wish to carry a loaded gun in compliance with State law really should give very serious consideration to obtaining a concealed weapons permit and being exempt from all such silliness and concerns.

    Charles



    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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