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Thread: bluegrass fair

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    i went to the bluegrass fair last night.. i was wondering why they post no CW?

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    The fair in my county posts "no firearms" signs. I spoke to a fair board member about it, and pointed out that the sign was illegal. She said "I really don't care what the law says, if you have the money for the lawyers, take us to court".

    Well, I guess I'm going to have to take donations!

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    KY_CCDW wrote:
    The fair in my county posts "no firearms" signs. I spoke to a fair board member about it, and pointed out that the sign was illegal. She said "I really don't care what the law says, if you have the money for the lawyers, take us to court".

    Well, I guess I'm going to have to take donations!
    Ask her if she has heard of 42USC1983. That would be what you would file the lawsuit under if you are arrested for legally carrying. The AG of the Commonwealth has a posted opinion on county governments not being able to regulate any carry except into building owned or leased by the county.
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    mnick426 wrote:
    i went to the bluegrass fair last night.. i was wondering why they post no CW?
    When I've asked about those kinds of things, was told "we're afraid a gun will fall out of someone's pocket while on a ride".



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    hotrod wrote:
    KY_CCDW wrote:
    The fair in my county posts "no firearms" signs. I spoke to a fair board member about it, and pointed out that the sign was illegal. She said "I really don't care what the law says, if you have the money for the lawyers, take us to court".

    Well, I guess I'm going to have to take donations!
    Ask her if she has heard of 42USC1983. That would be what you would file the lawsuit under if you are arrested for legally carrying. The AG of the Commonwealth has a posted opinion on county governments not being able to regulate any carry except into building owned or leased by the county.
    I was told by a local cop the charge would be something like "disorderly conduct".:X

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    KY_CCDW wrote:
    hotrod wrote:
    KY_CCDW wrote:
    The fair in my county posts "no firearms" signs. I spoke to a fair board member about it, and pointed out that the sign was illegal. She said "I really don't care what the law says, if you have the money for the lawyers, take us to court".

    Well, I guess I'm going to have to take donations!
    Ask her if she has heard of 42USC1983. That would be what you would file the lawsuit under if you are arrested for legally carrying. The AG of the Commonwealth has a posted opinion on county governments not being able to regulate any carry except into building owned or leased by the county.
    I was told by a local cop the charge would be something like "disorderly conduct".:X
    KRS 525.060 would not apply to anything you were doing in legally carrying a firearm.
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    Disorderly Conduct or DC is when the antis or a LEO make a scene when a lawfully armed citizen is carrying a weapon. Plain and simple. Carrying a weapon isn't disorderly. Screaming HES GOT A GUN!!!!, calling 911, or a LEO pointing a weapon at a lawfully armed citizen and ordering him to the ground and then arresting him because he has a holstered weapon. THAT IS DISORDERLY CONDUCT!

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    Are these county fairs actually put on by the counties or is the property rented by the fair promoters? If it is rented by a private company they may have the right to ask you not to carry while on the property they have rented. Just wondering.

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    I think usually its on county property, but put on by the "Fair Board". I'm not sure of their status, governmental or 501.3C

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    A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the first degree when he or she:
    (a) In a public place and with INTENT to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly creating a risk thereof:
    1. Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    2. Makes unreasonable noise; or
    3. Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose; and

    I believe that a person is guilty of DC only when the intent is there. And, of course, peaceably exercising one's rights is no where near DC.

    Another note: this particular fair is put on by the Lion's Club. They can probably ask someone to leave.

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    KY_CCDW wrote:
    The fair in my county posts "no firearms" signs. I spoke to a fair board member about it, and pointed out that the sign was illegal. She said "I really don't care what the law says, if you have the money for the lawyers, take us to court".

    Well, I guess I'm going to have to take donations!
    Any idea how much an effort like this would cost? I'd be willing to donate to get the signs taken down to deal with the boards arrogance.

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    I think it would be expensive. Of course at the local court, we're probably going to lose the first go round. There would have to be at least one appeal.

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    So what would happen if you just OC at the fair? They call the police, and they come and find no law is being broken?

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    Statesman wrote:
    So what would happen if you just OC at the fair? They call the police, and they come and find no law is being broken?
    Disorderly Conduct charge.

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    KY_CCDW wrote:
    Statesman wrote:
    So what would happen if you just OC at the fair? They call the police, and they come and find no law is being broken?
    Disorderly Conduct charge.
    Disorderly Conduct would not be a charge available to the police. If arrested, or detained without RAS the police would be open to a lawsuit under 42USC1983. Local, County and State property can not be posted as no carry. It is outside their scope.
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    KY_CCDW wrote:
    Statesman wrote:
    So what would happen if you just OC at the fair? They call the police, and they come and find no law is being broken?
    Disorderly Conduct charge.
    We both know that doesn't apply, so it will get thrown out in court. I've heard this can be done with a court assigned defense attorney (or something). I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

    This is where a video camera would become handy, showing no disorderly conduct of the OCer.

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    I really do think we're missing the point here. Even though this is a public location, I'm sure the Lion's Club Fair gig is a private event and would have the authority to ask you to leave their event.

    Now this is assuming the anti-gun signs are theirs--not the parks. Are the signs in the park year round?

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    langzaiguy wrote:
    I really do think we're missing the point here. Even though this is a public location, I'm sure the Lion's Club Fair gig is a private event and would have the authority to ask you to leave their event.

    Now this is assuming the anti-gun signs are theirs--not the parks. Are the signs in the park year round?
    No they wouldn't have the authority. The property is owned by either a local, county, or state governments. They can not infringe on your rights by assigning the property to someone else. The Commonwealth AG opined on this with Louisville in 1998 when Louisville established a park through a trust and tried to claim the trust was a privately owned corporation. It didn't fly.
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    This is why I am an advocate of taking donations for an "OC defense fund", whereby if you become a member and donate, a selected board of members would decide if the funds would be used for another members defense, in case our rights are violated. Then, there wouldn't be as much of a hit on a persons finances to defend oneself in court against a bogus D.O. charge, or something else.

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    Statesman wrote:
    This is why I am an advocate of taking donations for an "OC defense fund", whereby if you become a member and donate, a selected board of members would decide if the funds would be used for another members defense, in case our rights are violated. Then, there wouldn't be as much of a hit on a persons finances to defend oneself in court against a bogus D.O. charge, or something else.
    Not a bad idea. You would need to establish a committee to determine what cases to provide funds to and a lawyer to help at an amount affordable.
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    hotrod wrote:
    langzaiguy wrote:
    I really do think we're missing the point here. Even though this is a public location, I'm sure the Lion's Club Fair gig is a private event and would have the authority to ask you to leave their event.

    Now this is assuming the anti-gun signs are theirs--not the parks. Are the signs in the park year round?
    No they wouldn't have the authority. The property is owned by either a local, county, or state governments. They can not infringe on your rights by assigning the property to someone else. The Commonwealth AG opined on this with Louisville in 1998 when Louisville established a park through a trust and tried to claim the trust was a privately owned corporation. It didn't fly.
    I would still be inclined to believe that if you rent a property it essentially becomes your private property for the amount of time you are renting it. The example I'm thinking of is government owned housing. They have tried to tell residents in some areas that they cannot have guns in their apartments. Usually the government can tell you not to have a firearm in a buildingthey own but it was struck down due to them renting the apartment. Just some thoughts of mine here,I could be wrong.



    Edited to change the word "property" to "buildings they own"

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    mellio wrote:
    hotrod wrote:
    langzaiguy wrote:
    I really do think we're missing the point here. Even though this is a public location, I'm sure the Lion's Club Fair gig is a private event and would have the authority to ask you to leave their event.

    Now this is assuming the anti-gun signs are theirs--not the parks. Are the signs in the park year round?
    No they wouldn't have the authority. The property is owned by either a local, county, or state governments. They can not infringe on your rights by assigning the property to someone else. The Commonwealth AG opined on this with Louisville in 1998 when Louisville established a park through a trust and tried to claim the trust was a privately owned corporation. It didn't fly.
    I would still be inclined to believe that if you rent a property it essentially becomes your private property for the amount of time you are renting it. The example I'm thinking of is government owned housing. They have tried to tell residents in some areas that they cannot have guns in their apartments. Usually the government can tell you not to have a firearm in a buildingthey own but it was struck down due to them renting the apartment. Just some thoughts of mine here,I could be wrong.



    Edited to change the word "property" to "buildings they own"
    CheckOpinion of Attorney General 99-10. Property can not be regulated if owned by city, county or state government. You can find all OAG opinions at www.handgunlaw.us and click on Kentucky
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    Masterson Station Park is owned by the Lexington Fayette Urban County Government. I'm not sure about the legal status if the Lions Club is renting the space, but it would seem to be an obvious dodge for any local government to bypass the Kentucky preemption law, KRS 65.870, by simply renting the property to an anti-gunner for a bogus event. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the owner of the property should control the property, and the LFUCG has no authority to regulate open carry in the parks in any way, and they can only prohibit concealed carry in buildings after passing an ordinance and posting the appropriate signs. The Lions Club complicates the issue, at least in my mind. I'd like to know the legalities, though.

    In the current Open Carry Picnic thread, I describe visiting the LFUCG Parks And Recreation website a couple of nights ago when trying to rent a shelter at Jacobson Park for our upcoming open carry picnic, and being presented with a page of rules, and sure enough, rule 9 said that firearms are prohibited in all parks. I did my research yesterday to bolster my understanding of the relevant laws, and this morning I called Jerry Hancock, the director of the LFUCG Division of Parks & Recreation. I explained that their rule was completely illegal, with a good explanation of the laws and what LFUCG could and could not regulate (it's not much!) and even though he was an anti, he agreed to remove the rule that prohibits firearms in Lexington parks, and as of this afternoon, it's gone!

    If you'd like legal assistance in fighting these illegal gun buster signs, particularly when you encounter arrogant anti-gunners abusing their public positions and essentially taking the position that they don't care about the law and the government wins because they have an unlimited source of tax dollars to fight you in court and you don't, there is a better solution. Join a gun rights organization and make use of their legal counsel. I'm a member of the Kentucky Concealed Carry Coalition, KC3.org. When I was researching my options about the gun ban in the parks, I was told that the KC3 has a pro bono legal defense counsel that will fight these blatant abuses of our right to keep and bear arms.

    Wouldn't you love to have a recording of some bureaucrat blatantly disregarding the law, infringing on your unalienable rights, and using the force of government to bully and intimidate citizens in the process? That wouldn't take much of a legal defense counsel. My legal defense? Press play. Petty bureaucrat gets early retirement. Buh bye! Buh bye!

    I frequently carry a matchbook sized MP3 player because it's a good, discrete audio recorder. You never know when someone else's words will come back to haunt them. Similarly, be careful what you say. You never know when you're being recorded. An armed society is a polite society. A society where citizens are recording government officials is a lawful and just society.

    Buy rice. Buy beans. Buy guns. Buy ammo.
    This is your final SHTF warning.

  24. #24
    Regular Member mellio's Avatar
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    Good job liberty. I'll look into Kc3.

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