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Thread: Open Holster Carry

  1. #1
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    I can't edit the title of my previous post, Flap Holster Carry, so I have to start a new thread.

    The point of the Second Amendment is not for personal protection, duck hunting or target shooting. The point is to show the government that the people have the power to alter or abolish the government, to remind the government just where sovereignty lies. See Thomas Jefferson's little memo on the subject known as the Declaration of Independence.

    Nothing is quite as clear a reminder of power and sovereignty as an armed populace. In Florida, we are somewhat limited in our ability to show this reminder of force to power, as we cannot openly display our guns:

    790.053 Open carrying of weapons.
    --

    (1)Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.

    Our weapons must be concealed:

    790.001 Definitions.--As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires: (2)"Concealed firearm" means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

    Since I can't openly carry the gun, the next best course is to openly carry a holster, but the holster must "conceal
    the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person." With Florida cops being what they are, you are well advised to ensure that not a single atom from the gun is visible to the ordinary sight of another person.

    To this end, I've purchased this holster:



    It's a hard-shell holster for a Walther P38, but I'll see what else fits in it. It completely conceals and encases the gun, and it could as easily contain a cell phone and a hairbrush as it would a gun.

    I'm planning on wearing it on a nylon duty belt, completely openly. If we can't have open carry, open holster carry might be the next best thing.

    Now, I'm not going to stuff a gun down it, right away. I'm going to wear it a while and document the interactions with police here. I want to create a database of police interaction that evidences that police made a fuss about these holsters and found nothing in them but cell phones so that when we decide to switch over to carrying, there will be abundant documentation that a holster worn openly is not proof that the gun is not concealed from the ordinary view of another.



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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Hmm, interesting idea. I may even try it at the diner where I eat about 16 meals a day, along with 3/4 of the local police establishment from meal to meal.

    As I usually wear my concealed Walther on a belt holster under a vest, I rarely take the holster off the belt so many times I'm wearing a small, black holster with no weapon visible.

    On Friday, one of the local coppers jokingly asked me "Where my gun was?" after seeing the holster. I told him it was in my pocket, where the law says it's supposed to be.

    He just said "Ah! Good idea" and left it at that. As I see these guys almost every day and they know I used to be in law enforcement (city copper and later on a Fed) they give me a small ration of grief from time to time. Nothing serious, just good natured ribbing I guess.

    So, let's us know how the new holster works out. Sounds like a good plan to test out.

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    Ibelieve I heard somewhere that 'concealed' in Florida meant 'concealed from knowledge' but I could be wrong...if that is the case law then you might have difficulty with the covered holster idea.

    I may have heard that tidbit from my concealed carry instructor, for what that's worth, may not be reliable.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    smoking357 wrote:
    Nothing is quite as clear a reminder of power and sovereignty as an armed populace. In Florida, we are somewhat limited in our ability to show this reminder of force to power, as we cannot openly display our guns:

    790.053 Open carrying of weapons.
    --

    (1)Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.

    Our weapons must be concealed:

    790.001 Definitions.--As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires: (2)"Concealed firearm" means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

    Since I can't openly carry the gun, the next best course is to openly carry a holster, but the holster must "conceal
    the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person." With Florida cops being what they are, you are well advised to ensure that not a single atom from the gun is visible to the ordinary sight of another person.

    I'm planning on wearing it on a nylon duty belt, completely openly. If we can't have open carry, open holster carry might be the next best thing.

    Now, I'm not going to stuff a gun down it, right away. I'm going to wear it a while and document the interactions with police here. I want to create a database of police interaction that evidences that police made a fuss about these holsters and found nothing in them but cell phones so that when we decide to switch over to carrying, there will be abundant documentation that a holster worn openly is not proof that the gun is not concealed from the ordinary view of another.


    While certainly completely concealed (there have been instances in other states where a flapped holster put some in the jackpot for carrying concealed w/o a permit... altho the holster was completely visible) it still displays the outline of a handgun. Now... I'm thinkin' they can't have it both ways... If people are gettin' jacked for carryin' concealed when the holster was visible... then it ought'a be considered 'concealed' when you DO have a CCW/CWP. I'm watchin' this thread closely...

    'Tell ya what i do sometimes (here)I drop my Makarov in a 'possibles bag' from Dixie Gunworks. It's just a small one with a beaver tail flap butI've used it for stuff when I've run outta pockets. (That's what they were for)'Wouldn't take too much to craft a holster pocket inside the thing. I OC normally. 'Wish you guys could.


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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    While certainly completely concealed (there have been instances in other states where a flapped holster put some in the jackpot for carrying concealed w/o a permit... altho the holster was completely visible) it still displays the outline of a handgun. Now... I'm thinkin' they can't have it both ways... If people are gettin' jacked for carryin' concealed when the holster was visible... then it ought'a be considered 'concealed' when you DO have a CCW/CWP. I'm watchin' this thread closely...
    I do have a CWP, so the gun would be "concealed from the ordinary view of another," per my permit.

    This nonsense about outlines and "printing" that the cop instructors at the CCW classes spout is nowhere supported by caselaw. Anyway, caselaw is not the criminal law. A person can only be convited for language clearly expressed in statute.

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    I've also considered looking intogettingaflap-type holstercustom made that did not follow the triangular gun outline (i.e. square shaped).

    Don't know what to put into the empty space but perhaps extra ammo would fit nicely. Once the 'print' of the gun is destroyed, you should be concealed under any legal definition.

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    OC4me wrote:
    I've also considered looking intogettingaflap-type holstercustom made that did not follow the triangular gun outline (i.e. square shaped).

    Don't know what to put into the empty space but perhaps extra ammo would fit nicely. Once the 'print' of the gun is destroyed, you should be concealed under any legal definition.
    But the entire point is to show a gun openly in such a fashion that the cops can't do anything about it.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    smoking357 wrote:
    OC4me wrote:
    I've also considered looking intogettingaflap-type holstercustom made that did not follow the triangular gun outline (i.e. square shaped).

    Don't know what to put into the empty space but perhaps extra ammo would fit nicely. Once the 'print' of the gun is destroyed, you should be concealed under any legal definition.
    But the entire point is to show a gun openly in such a fashion that the cops can't do anything about it.

    No... the 'point' is to be able to access the gun rapidly w/o digging it out from under layers of clothing... or your boots. It's just a holster of a different shape. Tweaking the cops noses is juvenile.

    Take a look at obtaining a holster (a regular holster) and crafting a 'pouch' shape around it. (Or find a pouch that a holster will fit into and secure it within' the pouch.)

    19th century cartridge boxes are too big... but possibles bags (or similar) will work. OK... so some weenie will accuse you of carrying a 'purse'. Ditch the strap 'n sew on some belt loops that won't let it sag... and cob up some stiffener for the inside. I doesn't have to be any wider that the geometry of the gun when viewed as a rectangle from butt to barrel.

    It's a wonder some holster mfg hasn't thought of this and marketed such an animal?


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    I've had the same idea, myself. However, it was prompted by seeing a particular holster.

    Check out the military issue holster for the czech cz-82 pistols. It is an ambidextrous holster that completely encases the pistol and spare magazine. It is a "keystone" shaped leather pouch that could easily pass for a pda or camera case, but is, in fact, a purpose designed holster. It should easily fit any similar sized pistol, and the idea could easily be copied for larger handguns.

    I'm off to the gun shop at the moment, but i'll try to find a pic of one and post it later today

    Grimstar

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    grimstar wrote:
    I've had the same idea, myself. However, it was prompted by seeing a particular holster.

    Check out the military issue holster for the czech cz-82 pistols. It is an ambidextrous holster that completely encases the pistol and spare magazine. It is a "keystone" shaped leather pouch that could easily pass for a pda or camera case, but is, in fact, a purpose designed holster. It should easily fit any similar sized pistol, and the idea could easily be copied for larger handguns.

    I'm off to the gun shop at the moment, but i'll try to find a pic of one and post it later today

    Grimstar
    Here's the holster you mention. Not a bad idea, but since there's a gap between the flap and the gun, a cop could and would claim that he looked inside the flap and clearly saw the butt of the gun.

    The Walther, Luger and Nambu holsters are the only ones I've seen that expose no part of the gun to external view.



  11. #11
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    grimstar wrote:
    I've had the same idea, myself. However, it was prompted by seeing a particular holster.

    Check out the military issue holster for the czech cz-82 pistols. It is an ambidextrous holster that completely encases the pistol and spare magazine. It is a "keystone" shaped leather pouch that could easily pass for a pda or camera case, but is, in fact, a purpose designed holster. It should easily fit any similar sized pistol, and the idea could easily be copied for larger handguns.

    I'm off to the gun shop at the moment, but i'll try to find a pic of one and post it later today

    Grimstar
    This is the same holster (and gun) that got some guy jacked up in Minnesota or Michigan not all that long ago for carrying 'concealed'.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    grimstar wrote:
    I've had the same idea, myself. However, it was prompted by seeing a particular holster.

    Check out the military issue holster for the czech cz-82 pistols. It is an ambidextrous holster that completely encases the pistol and spare magazine. It is a "keystone" shaped leather pouch that could easily pass for a pda or camera case, but is, in fact, a purpose designed holster. It should easily fit any similar sized pistol, and the idea could easily be copied for larger handguns.

    I'm off to the gun shop at the moment, but i'll try to find a pic of one and post it later today

    Grimstar
    This is the same holster (and gun) that got some guy jacked up in Minnesota or Michigan not all that long ago for carrying 'concealed'.
    This is why we have to be absolutely careful.

    The police will try to twist the law, any way they can, to generate the maximum amount of arrests.

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    It pays to research. Under a strict construction, a handgun completely concealed would seem to be a concealed handgun. So much for this "intent" nonsense.

    Chapter 775
    DEFINITIONS; GENERAL PENALTIES; REGISTRATION OF CRIMINALS

    775.021 Rules of construction.--
    (1)The provisions of this code and offenses defined by other statutes shall be strictly construed; when the language is susceptible of differing constructions, it shall be construed most favorably to the accused.
    (2)The provisions of this chapter are applicable to offenses defined by other statutes, unless the code otherwise provides.
    (3)This section does not affect the power of a court to punish for contempt or to employ any sanction authorized by law for the enforcement of an order or a civil judgment or decree.
    (4)(a)Whoever, in the course of one criminal transaction or episode, commits an act or acts which constitute one or more separate criminal offenses, upon conviction and adjudication of guilt, shall be sentenced separately for each criminal offense; and the sentencing judge may order the sentences to be served concurrently or consecutively. For the purposes of this subsection, offenses are separate if each offense requires proof of an element that the other does not, without regard to the accusatory pleading or the proof adduced at trial.
    (b)The intent of the Legislature is to convict and sentence for each criminal offense committed in the course of one criminal episode or transaction and not to allow the principle of lenity as set forth in subsection (1) to determine legislative intent. Exceptions to this rule of construction are:
    1.Offenses which require identical elements of proof.
    2.Offenses which are degrees of the same offense as provided by statute.
    3.Offenses which are lesser offenses the statutory elements of which are subsumed by the greater offense.

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    The intent, I believe, of the original poster is to meet the legal definition of concealed in Florida, yet still have the gun 'in the open'.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Here is another idea for those of you who do not want to have a custom leather holster made.

    I carry my FN FiveSeven with extra mag and laser/light in one of these when I go hiking and biking and camping. I use it as a drop down or just zip-tie it to my backpack or bike, and it protects and restrains the weapon very well while still allowing an easy pull.

    http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=51

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