Mouse guns

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Nobody mentioned the Taurus 709 Slim?

It's 6.25" long, and a little less than an inch wide. Weighs 19 ounces unloaded.

9mm is it's caliber.

Seems like a good compromise between size and recoil.

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+1 to all Kel-Tecs. Cheap and ugly; but they do the job. The warranty and Customer Service is perfect, too. I bought a busted, beat up 1st gen P32. It had been nickel plated, badly.

I sent it in to kel-tec because it didn't work at all, main spring was mangled, and a few other problems. It looked like someone had skidded their F350 to a stop on top of it. 2 weeks later I had a brand new hard-chromed P32. New model, old serial number. Never missed a round. I really wish I hadn't sold it... All I asked them to do was make it work.

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ixtow wrote:

+1 to all Kel-Tecs. Cheap and ugly; but they do the job. The warranty and Customer Service is perfect, too. I bought a busted, beat up 1st gen P32. It had been nickel plated, badly.

I sent it in to kel-tec because it didn't work at all, main spring was mangled, and a few other problems. It looked like someone had skidded their F350 to a stop on top of it. 2 weeks later I had a brand new hard-chromed P32. New model, old serial number. Never missed a round. I really wish I hadn't sold it... All I asked them to do was make it work.

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I have an older9mm P 11. Had sometrouble over the years. Some of it was likely ammo and some was definitely mag problems, but plenty was the gun. To make a loooooooong story short. Sent it to Kel Tec and got back a brand new weapon, except for theslide and barrel. Like yours, Kel Tec put the old serial # on the new frame. It has functioned flawlessly since. The only problem I've had is I can't find any ammo for it or the brand new never shot 9mm CZ 75B I recently bought at the Chantilly, Va gun show.

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I have a Keltec PF9 as my more concealable option. It fits nicely in a front pocket and doesn't drag down my shorts when IWB.

My wife has a P32. It is noticeably smaller, I could easily conceal it entirely in the palm of my hand, but too me it is too small. Feel like I need tweezers and a magnifying glass to shoot it, but then my gun of preference is a Ruger P89.

I agree with Bravo_Sierra that you shouldn't worry too much about caliber. 6 or 7 rounds to the face of anything should definitely cause the bad guy to rethink his life choices long enough for you to get away. I'll go with a hail of .22's over pepper spray anytime.

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Daddyo wrote:

I have a Keltec PF9 as my more concealable option. It fits nicely in a front pocket and doesn't drag down my shorts when IWB.

My wife has a P32. It is noticeably smaller, I could easily conceal it entirely in the palm of my hand, but too me it is too small. Feel like I need tweezers and a magnifying glass to shoot it, but then my gun of preference is a Ruger P89.

I agree with Bravo_Sierra that you shouldn't worry too much about caliber. 6 or 7 rounds to the face of anything should definitely cause the bad guy to rethink his life choices long enough for you to get away. I'll go with a hail of .22's over pepper spray anytime.

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Heh, I used to carry a P89 as well.

I just got my PT1911AR back from hard chroming the slide. The two-tone reminds me of my stainless/aluminum P89.

As with every gun I ever sold; wish I still had that one... ;-)

Kel-tec seems to have problems proof-testing in-house. Their 1st and 2nd generations of a model tend to have issues, but 3rd time is usually the charm. They get a bad reputation, but the P-3AT and P-32 lines have matured enough that they can be trusted. Any older revisions, just send it in, and they'll send you back a 'latest version' with your old number on it. I don't know this to be their policy, but I have yet to see any deviation from the patern.

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smash29 wrote:

.40 Cal wrote:

I don't know, it would look nice with your skirt!

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Or as a keychain.

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Kahr has a link to this outfit which, at present , doesn't work. They have a nice picture of a P380 in a neckchain rig. The link bellow shows a P3AT and other pistols in some of the company's other neck chain 'holsters'.



http://www.stellarrigs.com/gun_neckchain_rigs.html



Muldoon

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The wife and i both own ruger lcps-have had no issues with either one.Their size makes a great back-up weapon,but not sure if it would be my main carry gun just because of the caliber.And yes 380 ammo is scarce and has gone way up in price when you can find it.

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Charter Arms makes the Patriot in .327Magnum. Ruger also has a .327Magnum revolver. Both have been through some initial production run problems and seem to have had the bugs worked out.

.327M has the ballistics of the .357M but less recoil. I like the .327M for both performance and recoil tolerance.

If you are going to pocket-carry either of these (quite doable) I recommend you consider bobbing the hammer.

stay safe.

skidmark

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I think open carry mini handguns are no joke . Its better than no gun at all . i would rather have a cobra 380 in a back alley than nothing.

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My first CC gun was a NAA .32ACP which is tiny and fairly inexpensive. I only use this gun for extreme CC like in my Jeans back pocket with a pocket-holster. It has a nasty recoil (nickname: Angry Crickett) and is only accurate out to about 3 yards. I would hate to see the recoil from its big brother the 380 version.

My second attempt at a CC gun was the Kahr MK40. It isa very nice gun and I outfitted it with a Crimson Trace. Fairly accurate (for me) to 7 yards. I get 6-8" groupings at 15 yards but that just may be me & my bad vision. The MK40 is solid stainless and heavy so you may need a belt to keep your pants up if you put it in your pocket holster. It is thin andgreat sizewise to carry. Both this and the NAA are too small for my hands and I find my trigger finger sometimes hitting my thumb. The PM9 is lightweight and the same size but the PM40 had some issues that I read about online so I went with the MK40. One drawback of this gun is the 5-6 in the magazine.

My third attempt at a CC gun is the one I use 95% of the time. It isn't a mouse gun but you might consider it since it fits in a pocket. The Taurus PT145 millenium pro is 45acp so no small caliber to worry about. It fits in my pocket with a Don Hume pocket-holster and holds 10+1. It also has a thumb safety. It is obviously thicker than the NAA and Kahr but the added benefits of capacity and firepower and to some extent accuracy over the Kahr, I like it!

My OC gun is a Sig P220 so the CC/backup gun uses the same ammo.

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For a BUG, I'm thinking that not much beats a revolver with a 2" or less barrel in either .32 or .38 and loaded with defense loads. It's a BUG, not your primary. If your definition of a BUG is to be a full replacement for your primary in the event you lose it or it malfunctions then you're not really wanting a backup, you want a second primary.

The few times I have felt like carrying asecond gun (notice I didn't say BUG)I use a .380 Bersa or Sig in either a weak-side holster or in a coat pocket.Five or sixshots into the gut or face with either should remove the immediate threat and allow you to either disengage or retrieve your primary.

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ecocks wrote:

...It's a BUG, not your primary. If your definition of a BUG is to be a full replacement for your primary in the event you lose it or it malfunctions then you're not really wanting a backup, you want a second primary.

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Ideally everyone wants a "secondary primary" since function, power and familiarity would be a plus. The reason that a BUG is usually smaller or less powerful is a tradeoff of size, costand concealability.

My full size P220 is reliable and accurate but not easy to conceal other than behind a coat. My Taurus PT145 backup gun is smaller, cheaper, less accurate, and based on the name Taurus less reliable that a Sig. The great thing about it is that it fits in my pocket with a pocket holster. It also uses the same ammo so that if I run out in my primary but have time to transfer from the BUG I keep the primary's accuracy and reliability.

So my recommendation for a BUG is to get as close to a primary as your constraints will allow. I do own different size guns from mouse-full size. Each has their use. Until you can afford to get "one of each" I suggest a BUG as big (caliber, capacity, physical dimensions) as you can conceal and afford.

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We can agree to disagree, no problem.

The OP says, "...I was thinking about getting a very compact, light and concealable last resort back up gun "

Last resort doesn't say a second primary to me. Maybe it does to you.

A number of comments here do not address the OP's original question. Especially since he apparently bought a Raven .25 cal if I understood that link to the auction site.

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I recommend the Kel Tec P-3AT. Again.

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I have had and regularly carried a P3AT for about a year. I finally decided to replace it, for the following reasons:

• Uncomfortable finger/trigger positioning: the placement of my finger on the trigger never feels quite "natural"
• Painful firing: after firing, my trigger finger hurts.
• Mushy trigger action: the trigger pull is long and imprecise
• Jams/reliability: I typically have some sort of jam at least once per every 20 rounds or so

The net result is a gun I don't enjoy taking to the range for practice, which isn't all that accurate even at fairly close range, and which does not inspire me with confidence with its reliability.

I got a Magnum Micro Desert Eagle to replace it. It's considerably heavier, which helps a lot with recoil and handling in general. I find I am much more accurate with it. Any micro .380 is going to transfer a lot of energy to the hand upon firing, so there's still a bit of discomfort with the Eagle but it's in the web of my hand and not in my trigger finger, and in any case is less than I had with the P3AT.

It's also even smaller than the P3AT and disappears that much better into a pocket.

The P3AT is great for what it is, and it's certainly possible that some of the issues I experienced with it were due to my own issues (improper handling etc) but I finally decided that it's not suited for me as my primary deep CC piece.

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Interesting info on the Micro DE.

I looked at one, along withtheMini DE,a bit ago and liked the feel but decided to stay with my CZ's.

On the .380 issue, it is always fun to surprise someone with how much more comfortable (and accurate) it is to fire the larger 9. My wife followed the stereotypical pattern when she looked over my assortment. First choice (after she fired a few magazines through my .22)was the .380 Bersa which she quickly discarded and went to a S&W Sigma 9. Then she asked to fire my .40 CZ and now she really wants to know why she can't have the same gun I do. Difficult since the CZ-40 was discontinued, maybe she'll like the P06.

While I regard the .380 as the minimum carry defense gun, Icertainly agree with the old saw, "better to hit with a .25 than miss with a .40". My ex carried a snub-nosed .32 revolver in her purse which I loaded with hollowpoints for her. She hated practice so my compromise was to just be sure she knew how to handle it safely and then told her if anone ever grabbed her in a parking lot to just shove it low against themand start pulling the trigger

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Felid`Maximus wrote:

In my opinion a .22lr could be adequate if placed in the right spot.

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I totally agree.