Open Holster Carry

smoking357 · Jul 20, 2009

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I am posting this here, because Arkansas is a state in which only concealed carry is allowed. Please discuss the idea for its feasibility in Arkansas. If your laws concerning what is "concealed" are similar to Florida's, this manner of carry might be a middle ground between concealed and full open.

In Florida, we are somewhat limited in our ability to show this reminder of force to power, as we cannot openly display our guns:

790.053 Open carrying of weapons.--
(1)Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.

Our weapons must be concealed:

790.001 Definitions.--As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires: (2)"Concealed firearm" means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

Since I can't openly carry the gun, the next best course is to openly carry a holster, but the holster must "conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person." With cops being what they are, you are well advised to ensure that not a single atom from the gun is visible to the ordinary sight of another person.

To this end, I've purchased this holster:

It's a hard-shell holster for a Walther P38, but I'll see what else fits in it. It completely conceals and encases the gun, and it could as easily contain a cell phone and a hairbrush as it would a gun.

I'm planning on wearing it on a nylon duty belt, completely openly. If we can't have open carry, open holster carry might be the next best thing.

Now, I'm not going to stuff a gun down it, right away. I'm going to wear it a while and document the interactions with police here. I want to create a database of police interaction that evidences that police made a fuss about these holsters and found nothing in them but cell phones so that when we decide to switch over to carrying, there will be abundant documentation that a holster worn openly is not proof that the gun is not concealed from the ordinary view of another.

Michigander · Jul 21, 2009

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That's a really great idea.I hope it works well for you, and maybe catches on in other rights restricted states.

smoking357 · Jul 22, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

That's a really great idea.I hope it works well for you, and maybe catches on in other rights restricted states.

There are five states that allow concealed carry but not open carry.

Arkansas
Florida
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Texas

So much for the South being pro gun.

We need to bring this to a point.

Michigander · Jul 22, 2009

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It would also have a place in states such as New York, New Jersey, Hawaii, and Maryland.

Chickenwang · Jul 22, 2009

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SPEAKING OF THE SOUTH HAVE YOU HEARD OF SLAVE CODES?

ccwinstructor · Aug 1, 2009

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I like this idea. I did it for a day back in the early 1980s in Madison, Wisconsin. If "flag burning" is protected speech, I do not see how open holster carrying can be anything but protected speech.

aadvark · Aug 28, 2009

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Arkansas Law is based off of Jim Crow Law when it comes to Firearms.

Arkansas Law, concerning Firearms, is complex, and ultimately very hostile towards any type of carry.

Even with a Arkansas Permit, you can only carry your Firearm concealed, and you would probably even get arrested for imprinting.

For some reason, Arkansas's neighbors Oklahoma and Texas both have this problem. South Carolina has this problem as well. These four States may change soon, however.

Florida... the only other Southern State... which I consider more Northern in mind state... will probaly never come off of their open carry restrictions.

There is hope left for Arkansas... but Arkansas will have to get over Jim Crow.

Gordon Shumway · Nov 1, 2009

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I think that people generally in these types of discussions are missing the point.

Concealed means concealed= undetectable as a gun.

That in itself removes the over-reaction of the general public and police officers if they see a weapon, and keeps everybody calm. Many people will never like open carry because they have seen too much gun violence in movies.

I have one of the lowest CC permit numbers. This summer I became acquainted with a local officer and after a discussion about concealed carry, I finally showed him that I had a full sized government 1911 under my t-shirt, and he was amazed that it was non-detectable.

Nobody needs to know you have a weapon. And YOU don't need them to know that you do (why so macho?). The whole deal is not about macho, it is about personal protection.

As far as I am concerned the only time I like open carry is in the woods or in anboat on the river: Snake shot.

AEubanks · Nov 1, 2009

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aadvark wrote:

Even with a Arkansas Permit, you can only carry your Firearm concealed, and you would probably even get arrested for imprinting.

Gordon Shumway wrote:

Concealed means concealed= undetectable as a gun.

Not quite--

Arkansas Code Annotated
§5-73-301. Definitions.
As used in this sub chapter:

(1) “Concealed” means to cover from observation so as to prevent public
view.

To say you would probably get arrested form imprinting I would say is a bit of an exaggeration. I seriously seriously doubt that. As long as I have it covered, I feel in the clear. Even if lets say I have a IWB and my shirt covers it, but there is a bulge, and I got arrested, I wouldn't worry because I don't believe that would hold water in court.
You might say that a bulge is a view for the public so if there is one that it is not concealed according to the definition, but I would argue that it would be the same as saying that every woman should be arrested for indecent exposure because you can see two bulges in their shirts in public. They are covered, as is my gun and thus they are concealed.
Not a lawyer by any means, just my opinion.
I agree that if you are CC it would defeat the purpose to have a bulge to some degree (depending on the situation), but causing your CC to basically be an OC, I think not.

Gordon Shumway · Nov 2, 2009

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Consider this:

I CAN cost you $2000 (or more) to go to court in North Little Rock for the judge to say "not guilty, case dismissed" and then he chews the arresting officer out for wasting the court's time........

But it still costme $2000, for lawyer, two days off work, vehicle impound fee, towing fee, and car damaged by towing company.

So just do whatever you think you can get away with. Maybe you won't find a prick city cop and state troopers.

Gordon Shumway · Nov 8, 2009

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Oh, I forgot to mention.

....Being told by a AR State Trooper (I quote) "Anyone withmore than $40 is a drug dealer. You're doing something wrong and we're gonna prove it." ((at which point Iwas surethey were going to plant drugs in my car..... they didn't.))

It is a longer story, but I won in court.

You should try the handcuffed and sitting in jail 5 hours, it might be a good experience.

I have been carrying concealed for 30 years and this was the only incident.

I don't think that legal open carry solves anything or puts people at ease with the gun situation.

mark edward marchiafava · Nov 18, 2009

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It appears ya'll are missing smoking's point: a visible reminder to the "powers that be."

CCW can't possibly convey that message, quite the opposite.

Grapeshot · Nov 26, 2009

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:

It appears ya'll are missing smoking's point: a visible reminder to the "powers that be."

CCW can't possibly convey that message, quite the opposite.

Nor does CC educate the public that guns are not any more evil than cars are.

OC is more convenient, quicker to deploy, educational, just as safe as CC and should be legal in every state.

Yata hey

Gordon Shumway · Nov 28, 2009

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Open carryjust as safe?

A criminal knows you have one.......

A criminal canseize your gun orshoot out as the initial action.....

Safer for whom?

Of course, he might also be detered from acting in your prescense.

Packer fan · Nov 28, 2009

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Gordon Shumway wrote:

Open carryjust as safe?

A criminal knows you have one.......

A criminal canseize your gun orshoot out as the initial action.....

Safer for whom?

Of course, he might also be detered from acting in your prescense.

the premise that a criminal will shoot you first I hear all the time from the anti who do not like seeing guns.

If a criminal is going to shoot you he will do it if he sees a gun or not at that point his intent is murder everything else is an excuse for him to murder.

A criminal will not take his chances with you if he thinks that he will get shot unless he has his "peeps" with him but then again see above.

I would rather OC and deter than CC and have to fight to get my gun out. Will open carry stop all crimes? No, but CC doesn't stop them either.

The only real advantage I see for CC is forother peoples comfort.

mark edward marchiafava · Nov 28, 2009

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But the 2nd amendment is not about protecting ourselves from the proverbial boogeyman, but ensuring the security of a free state.

Grapeshot · Nov 28, 2009

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Gordon Shumway wrote:

Open carryjust as safe?

A criminal knows you have one.......

A criminal canseize your gun orshoot out as the initial action.....

Safer for whom?

Of course, he might also be detered from acting in your prescense.

Oh sigh, repeat performance required.

Standard challenge: Show us one (1) verifiable, documented/cite anywhere in the 50 states in modern times where an OCer (non-military or LEO) has ever been preemptively taken out/shot. I've also said that no doubt some day such will likely occur, but the resultant per centage compared to non-events will yield something like .0001% or less.

If accosted by a BG, a CCer will look like anybody else and not until the CCer shows his gun will the BG be aware of it. This you consider an advantage?

I've heard the "element of surprise" argument - I'd rather avoid the incident than surprise someone, but that is just me.

Yata hey

Packer fan · Nov 29, 2009

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:

But the 2nd amendment is not about protecting ourselves from the proverbial boogeyman, but ensuring the security of a free state.

I agree. We no longer live in a free society. Yes, we may have more freedoms than others but when we live in fear of breaking some law while exercising our God given rights than we are no longer free.

I lived outside the States and a person form that country told me that when they get up out of bed in the morning they are breaking some sort of law. I think we are there here in the States.

God in His guide book deals with reality; man in his philosophies deals in ideology.
I wish I could OC in Ar but I must obey the laws. I can still CC.

Gordon Shumway · Dec 9, 2009

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Unfortunately, it is all about attitude.
Never having shot or been shot at, either in war or on the streets,YOUR attitude is showing.

Pleaseunderstand that since only a very smallpercentage of people do OC in the legal states, that LEOmight call for backup, even draw a weapon on you first, and run your stats to see if you are a felon.

I have had seven (7) armed officers surround me with hands on unsnapped weapons while I was checked and found totally legal. It is stressful since you don't know what some newby might get excited and do.

These things make the surrounding viewers extremely apprehensive. And NO, 98% will never get over seeing a "detain and ID check" REQUEST.

Concealed carry is more appropriate in 99% of the time.

Packer fan · Dec 9, 2009

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I have had an LEO draw down on me and three friends and we weren't even armed or breaking the law. He took our id's and we had to prove we were legal to be where we were at. After he checked our id's he said he never drew down on us and that we were just scared. It wasn't that scary as long as you remain calm and do as the officer tells you to do.

As more and more people OC the police will start to see it more often.

I would think that an LOE would want more people to open carry so they know that they are armed. How often do criminals OC?

As far as CC being better 99% of the time; that is just one man's opinion. You are entitled to it, just like OC.

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