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Thread: MCRGO OC info

  1. #1
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    I get a weekly FAQ sent to my inbox from MCRGO. This is the one that I received yesterday, it deals with OC in Michigan and is written by the author of "Common Sense Guide to Michigan Gun Laws" which is for sale on MCRGO's website.

    http://campaign.constantcontact.com/...eGQALIQRNcScij

    Open Carry of a Pistol
    by Daniel Bambery


    Open carry of a pistol is best described as what it isn't. It is not concealed. Some courts have described open carry as visible or open to observation. Carrying a pistol in a holster outside clothing uncovered by coat or shirt is clearly open carry. Certain people are forbidden to even own firearms, but that is an issue for another day.



    I


    There is no blanket prohibition on the carrying of a pistol by a person who can legally own a pistol. Therefore we have to look at what types of carrying of a pistol are forbidden. It is a crime to...

    1. carry a concealed pistol except in your own dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by you without a concealed pistol license (CPL).
    2. carry a pistol in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, whether or not concealed, without a CPL.
    3. carry a pistol in certain places without permission or CPL, unless you are a LEO (a depository financial institution, a church or other house of religious worship, a court, a theatre, a sports arena, a day care center, a hospital, an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act).
    4. carry a pistol with unlawful intent.
    5. carry a pistol while bow hunting without a CPL.
    6. carry a pistol while less than 18 years old unless hunting or at a shooting range.
    7. carry a pistol while intoxicated.
    8. carry a pistol in any area frequented by wild animals without a hunting license or CPL.
    9. carry a firearm while working as a volunteer conservation officer.



    II


    If a person has a CPL s/he is allowed to carry everywhere in Michigan without violating the criminal law. A person with a CPL does not forfeit their right to 'open carry' where appropriate. However there are certain places a person with a CPL cannot carry without violating the restrictions of the CPL and committing a civil infraction. (A second offense is a misdemeanor.) There are limited exceptions such as law enforcement officers (LEO's) and retired judges. These are the "Pistol Free Zones":

    1. A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school.
    2. A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    3. A sports arena or stadium.
    4. A bar or tavern that gets 50% of its income from the sale liquor by the glass unless an owner or employee of the business.
    5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a place of worship, without permission.
    6. An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.
    7. A hospital.
    8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    9. A casino.



    III


    Michigan State University, the University of Michigan and Wayne State University were all established by the Michigan Constitution and given some legislative powers. They have all forbidden the possession of firearms on their campuses. MSU allows CPL holders to carry in the open areas of the campus. Violations of these rules are punishable as violations of university rules and can result in heavy sanctions for students and employees and barring from the campus for others.



    IV


    All courts in Michigan are required by the Michigan Supreme Court to have a "Court Security Plan". Most courts forbid the carrying of weapons by anyone not a LEO. Violations of these prohibitions are neither crimes nor civil violations but are punishable as contempt of court.



    V


    A private person can set their own rules for people on their property. If a private property owner (not a government of public agency) forbids the possession of weapons on their property, violation of that rule is punished under the trespass statute. A person must be asked (told) to leave before any legal consequences can attach.

    Occasionally a state regulated business is required by the state to forbid the possession of firearms. Casinos must not allow anyone, even their own security personnel, other than LEO's and armored car guards to carry a firearm on their premises. A person attempting open carry at a casino would be ejected. It is the interplay between these rules that is often confusing. For example, a person without a CPL cannot open carry in a sports arena; and, commits a crime if he/she does so. While a person with a CPL is also forbidden to carry in a sports arena but only commits a civil infraction if s/he does so.



    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. ľ Thomas Paine

  2. #2
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    That beats the article I read in their magazine 5 or so years ago where a writer said something like "it's legal, and you can feel free to explain that to the cops as you're head is being slammed on the concrete, don't do it, tactical advantage, blah blah blah"
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    This part in red is wrong ...

    If a person has a CPL s/he is allowed to carry everywhere in Michigan without violating the criminal law. A person with a CPL does not forfeit their right to 'open carry' where appropriate. However there are certain places a person with a CPL cannot carry without violating the restrictions of the CPL and committing a civil infraction. (A second offense is a misdemeanor.) There are limited exceptions such as law enforcement officers (LEO's) and retired judges. These are the "Pistol Free Zones":

    1. A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school.
    2. A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    3. A sports arena or stadium.
    4. A bar or tavern that gets 50% of its income from the sale liquor by the glass unless an owner or employee of the business.
    5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a place of worship, without permission.
    6. An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.
    7. A hospital.
    8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    9. A casino.


    First of all many of these are void IF I OC with a CPL and this is only the CPL pistol free zone list!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  4. #4
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    This part in red is wrong ...

    If a person has a CPL s/he is allowed to carry everywhere in Michigan without violating the criminal law. A person with a CPL does not forfeit their right to 'open carry' where appropriate. However there are certain places a person with a CPL cannot carry without violating the restrictions of the CPL and committing a civil infraction. (A second offense is a misdemeanor.) There are limited exceptions such as law enforcement officers (LEO's) and retired judges. These are the "Pistol Free Zones":

    1. A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school.
    2. A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    3. A sports arena or stadium.
    4. A bar or tavern that gets 50% of its income from the sale liquor by the glass unless an owner or employee of the business.
    5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a place of worship, without permission.
    6. An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.
    7. A hospital.
    8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    9. A casino.


    First of all many of these are void IF I OC with a CPL and this is only the CPL pistol free zone list!
    I don't understand why the author included "9. A casino" to the list of CPZ's when casinos are not included in Section 5o, Subsection (1).In addition,casino parking lots are not exempt for CPL holders per Section 5o. They are a whole different animal. Other than the possibility of Soaring Eagle, etc (Tribal), if the parking lot is not posted then the parking lot may be okay.

  5. #5
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I imagine that it's because no Casino allows them, but I've often wondered that too. My buddy with his CPL said 'yeah, casino's are on the list', and I insisted they weren't, and after we both looked at the back of our CPL's, sure enough, they weren't listed, but neither of us could figure out why we both 'knew' that we couldn't carry there.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  6. #6
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    malignity wrote:
    I imagine that it's because no Casino allows them, but I've often wondered that too. My buddy with his CPL said 'yeah, casino's are on the list', and I insisted they weren't, and after we both looked at the back of our CPL's, sure enough, they weren't listed, but neither of us could figure out why we both 'knew' that we couldn't carry there.
    http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admin...gHigh=48702110

    R 432.1212 Weapons in casino.
    Rule 212. (1) An individual may not carry a firearm or other weapon in a
    casino, except for the following entities:
    (a) State, county, city, township, or village law enforcement officers, as
    defined in section 2(e) of Act No. 203 of the Public Acts of 1965, as
    amended, being ┬ž 28.601 et seq. of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (b) Federal law enforcement officers, as defined in 5 U.S.C. ┬ž 8331.
    (c) Armored car personnel picking up or delivering currency at secured
    areas.
    (2) Law enforcement officers conducting official duties within a casino
    shall, to the extent practicable, advise the Michigan state police gaming
    section of their presence.
    (3) Private casino security personnel may carry handcuffs while on duty in
    a casino.

    History: 1998-2000 AACS.

    Section 5o (28.425o), Subsection (2):

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).




  7. #7
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    I imagine that it's because no Casino allows them, but I've often wondered that too. My buddy with his CPL said 'yeah, casino's are on the list', and I insisted they weren't, and after we both looked at the back of our CPL's, sure enough, they weren't listed, but neither of us could figure out why we both 'knew' that we couldn't carry there.
    Hmmm, the back of my CPLdefinitely lists casino as a CC PFZ.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. ľ Thomas Paine

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Yep, mine says no CC too.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  9. #9
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Ha! You're right. My bad, I guess mine does say that too. (Oops.)

    I remember now what the conversation was about. It was about banks, my bad. Note to self, don't post stuff when just waking up. (Good ole midnights.)
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    malignity wrote:
    Ha! You're right. My bad, I guess mine does say that too. (Oops.)

    I remember now what the conversation was about. It was about banks, my bad. Note to self, don't post stuff when just waking up. (Good ole midnights.)
    For the record, with a CPL, you can legally carry openly or concealed in a bank.

    Without a CPL, you cannot carry openly or concealed in a bank.

  11. #11
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    I imagine that it's because no Casino allows them, but I've often wondered that too. My buddy with his CPL said 'yeah, casino's are on the list', and I insisted they weren't, and after we both looked at the back of our CPL's, sure enough, they weren't listed, but neither of us could figure out why we both 'knew' that we couldn't carry there.
    http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admin...gHigh=48702110

    R 432.1212┬* Weapons in casino.
    ┬* Rule 212.┬* (1)┬* An individual may not carry a firearm or other weapon in┬* a
    casino, except for the following entities:
    ┬* (a) State, county, city, township, or village law enforcement officers,┬* as
    defined in section 2(e) of Act No.┬* 203┬* of┬* the┬* Public┬* Acts┬* of┬* 1965,┬* as
    amended, being ┬ž 28.601 et seq. of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    ┬* (b) Federal law enforcement officers, as defined in 5 U.S.C. ┬ž 8331.
    ┬* (c) Armored car personnel picking up┬* or┬* delivering┬* currency┬* at┬* secured
    areas.
    ┬* (2) Law enforcement officers conducting official┬* duties┬* within┬* a┬* casino
    shall, to the extent practicable, advise the┬* Michigan┬* state┬* police┬* gaming
    section of their presence.
    ┬* (3) Private casino security personnel may carry handcuffs while on duty┬* in
    a casino.

    ┬* History:┬* 1998-2000 AACS.

    Section 5o (28.425o), Subsection (2):

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).┬*
    Since Casino's aren't included in subsection (1), but instead in subsection (2), you cannot rely on subsection (3) to allow you to keep a gun in your vehicle when visiting a casino.

    Fortunately, you can look at the administrative rules word definitions to get your answer for that question. A Casino is defined as "A building in which gambling takes place." A "Casino Enterprise" is the entire premises owned and operated by the casino. The Administrative Rule only bans guns in the Casino, not the Casino Enterprise. Thus, carry is allowed everywhere except the building where gambling takes place.

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    I read that article today too, Thanks to all you guys that cleared up this misinformation. Did anyone happen to do the same with the MCRGO website?

  13. #13
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Why does MCRGO have Sponsors that endorse Obama?

  14. #14
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    What does politics have to do with anything? People should know by now, that unless you want to start an argument, you don't talk about politics or religion. I'm not saying I'm an Obama fan, but you don't have to be republican to be pro-gun.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  15. #15
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Really?

    Maybe OCDO should get a banner add for the Brady bunch too then?

  16. #16
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    If this is going to become a political bashing session, I'm removing my account to this site. I'm not going to be a part of any sort of this crap. Just a forewarning. I'm for pro gun rights, OC, CC, etc. However, I'm not going to play a part in any sort of political bashing. We're trying to make friends here, and on more than one occasion, I've seen this kind of crap on the site. I'm sure that's attractive to the newcomers of the site, having this at the top.

    Addendum: I understand democrats are notoriously anti-gun, etc, but it's like classifying all apples as being red. It simply isn't the case. If we want to attract people to this community and make it stronger, we need to keep this kind of garbage off the site, so that we can attract everyone, not just the republicans.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  17. #17
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Easy Guys! Lets drop the politics unless it directly pertains to the 2A or Michigan law!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  18. #18
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    If this is going to become a political bashing session, I'm removing my account to this site.
    PLEASE don't do that.

    I agree with you totally, politics need to be a non issue to this forum, especially the Michigan section.

    I'm a left leaning libertarian, many here are conservative, I'm sure we even have 1 or 2 Marxists lurking around here. In practical terms, this means NOTHING. As a group, we can accomplish precisely nothing arguing about politics. It can only serve to divide us uselessly and scare off potential new members.

    As I've said in the past, we are united ONLY in that we all approve of gun rights and open and concealed carrying. It serves no purpose to think deeper into it than that, especially now. Maybe one day MOC will be a group that is listened to in Lansing like the NRA in DC, but we're a far cry from there right now. So PLEASE everyone, keep your non gun related political views to yourself, or at least be polite and non argumentative if it has to come up.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  19. #19
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    If this is going to become a political bashing session, I'm removing my account to this site.
    As I've said in the past, we are united ONLY in that we all approve of gun rights and open and concealed carrying. It serves no purpose to think deeper into it than that, especially now. Maybe one day MOC will be a group that is listened to in Lansing like the NRA in DC, but we're a far cry from there right now. So PLEASE everyone, keep your non gun related political views to yourself, or at least be polite and non argumentative if it has to come up.
    You have a better way with words than I do. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. Doug, politics aside, I'm still glad to have you as a fellow pro-gun advocate.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  20. #20
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    Michigander wrote:
    PLEASE don't do that.

    I agree with you totally, politics need to be a non issue to this forum, especially the Michigan section.

    I'm a left leaning libertarian, many here are conservative, I'm sure we even have 1 or 2 Marxists lurking around here. In practical terms, this means NOTHING. As a group, we can accomplish precisely nothing arguing about politics. It can only serve to divide us uselessly and scare off potential new members.

    As I've said in the past, we are united ONLY in that we all approve of gun rights and open and concealed carrying. It serves no purpose to think deeper into it than that, especially now. Maybe one day MOC will be a group that is listened to in Lansing like the NRA in DC, but we're a far cry from there right now. So PLEASE everyone, keep your non gun related political views to yourself, or at least be polite and non argumentative if it has to come up.
    +1000

  21. #21
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    It's NOT politics.

    Do you think Obama approves of Open Carry?

    Do you think Obama approves of people shooting bad guys to protect themselves?

    Do you think Obama approves of CPL's?

    Do you think Obama approves of private gun ownership?

    It's likethe NRA having a banner ad on their website advertising the Brady Campaign.

  22. #22
    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    If this is going to become a political bashing session, I'm removing my account to this site.
    Why go to the extreme? If there is something on TV you don't like do you get rid of the TV or just change the channel?

  23. #23
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    You can peel the skin off the apple,Malignity,and if you bite it, it's going to taste like an apple!springerdave.

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