Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: BATFE - An Open Letter To All Montana Federal Firearms Licensees

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Meriden, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/071709-m...openletter.pdf

    An Open Letter To All Montana Federal Firearms Licensees
    U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Assistant Director
    The purpose of this letter is to provide guidance on your obligations as a Federal firearms licensee (FFL). The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is dedicated to your success in meeting requirements as a Federal Firearms licensee.
    The passage of the Montana Firearms Freedom Act, House Bill 246 (Act), effective, October 1, 2009, has generated questions from industry members as to how this State law may affect them while engaged in firearms business activity. The Act purports to exempt personal firearms, firearms accessories and ammunition manufactured in the State, from most Federal Firearms laws and regulations. However, because the Act conflicts with Federal firearms laws and regulations, Federal law supercedes the Act, and all provisions of the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act, and their corresponding regulations, continue to apply.
    As you may know, Federal law requires a license to engage in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition, or to deal in firearms, even if the firearms or ammunition remain in the state. All firearms manufactured by a licensee must be properly marked. Additionally, each licensee must record the type, model, caliber or gauge and serial number of each firearm manufactured or otherwise, and the date such manufacture or other acquistion was made. Firearms transaction records and NICS background checks must be conducted prior to disposition of firearms to unlicensed persons. These, as well as other Federal requirements and prohibitions, apply whether or not the firearms or ammunitions have crossed state lines.
    If you have any questions regarding the Federal firearms laws and regulations, please contact your local ATF office. ATF works closely with the firearms industry and appreciates the important role the industry plays in combating violent crime. A listing of phone numbers can be found at : http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm
    It is signed by Carson W. Carroll Assistant Director (Enforcement Programs and Services)

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Kalispell, Montana, USA
    Posts
    260

    Post imported post

    Obviously our governor has yet to reply on the matter.



    This is gonna get nasty before it is over, but I can actually see Montana succeding from the USofObama.

  3. #3
    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    The 'Dena, Mаяуlaпd
    Posts
    2,147

    Post imported post

    Interesting letter, can't wait to see how this plays out.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

  4. #4
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Post imported post

    JBinMontana wrote:
    Obviously our governor has yet to reply on the matter.



    This is gonna get nasty before it is over, but I can actually see Montana succeding from the USofObama.


    Actually the best reply of the Governor would be to:

    1)Sign an executive order making a drivers license or state ID a Montana Militia card.

    2) Encourage law abiding citizens of Montana to arm themselves without engaging in interstate commerce by buying Montana Guns.

    3) Order the Chief Law enforcement officer to arrest any agent interfering with the arming of the State Militia with Montana Guns.

    4) Encourage Jury Nullification by Montana Citizens for any bogus BATF arrest of Montana Militia members for arming themselves.

    Difficulties for the Feds:

    A. State Militias are constitutionally authorized for the states and their regulation is an internal state matter, except when called by the president during an emergency.

    B. Trial for any federal arrest in Montana would have to happen in Montana


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  5. #5
    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lake County, Montana, USA
    Posts
    490

    Post imported post

    I gotta agree, this whole thing is gonna get worse before it gets better. I can't wait to hear what the Governor says about this whole thing. I don't think he'd sign the bill and have it pass for it to fall flat on its face right out of the gate!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    The south land
    Posts
    1,230

    Post imported post

    It is the same letter sent to Tennessee after the state legislature passed the Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act recently....the governor however is not one who is interested in fighting the feds on the issue--he has already said his opinion on the bill--and in his opinion from what I read on it--he thinks the Act was a waste of time to pass.....



  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    The south land
    Posts
    1,230

    Post imported post

    Thundar wrote:
    JBinMontana wrote:
    Obviously our governor has yet to reply on the matter.



    This is gonna get nasty before it is over, but I can actually see Montana succeding from the USofObama.


    Actually the best reply of the Governor would be to:

    1)Sign an executive order making a drivers license or state ID a Montana Militia card.

    2) Encourage law abiding citizens of Montana to arm themselves without engaging in interstate commerce by buying Montana Guns.

    3) Order the Chief Law enforcement officer to arrest any agent interfering with the arming of the State Militia with Montana Guns.

    4) Encourage Jury Nullification by Montana Citizens for any bogus BATF arrest of Montana Militia members for arming themselves.

    Difficulties for the Feds:

    A. State Militias are constitutionally authorized for the states and their regulation is an internal state matter, except when called by the president during an emergency.

    B. Trial for any federal arrest in Montana would have to happen in Montana

    Federal troops would be on the streets....and then 1 of 2 things would happen--people would either simply take it or things would get nasty in a hurry...

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Milford Colony, Montana, USA
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    That would be hard for the Governor to do. Militia's, and paramilitary training, are illegal in the state of Montana.



  9. #9
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Post imported post

    MontanaCZ wrote:
    That would be hard for the Governor to do. Militia's, and paramilitary training, are illegal in the state of Montana.

    What are you talking about? Article 6 section 13 of the Montana Constitution explicitly states that all able bodied are the militia in Montana and that the Govenor is in charge of it.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
    Posts
    800

    Post imported post

    Wow. I didn't think BAFTE would piss on the 10th amendment so hard or so fast. This should be interesting! No interstate commerce = no federal power to restrict firearms, simple as that!

    Keep fighting the good fight Montana! I am continuing to pressure my State representation to follow in your footsteps and pass our own version of your brilliant law. We have some good support behind it, but we will have to wait and see how it goes next session.



  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Milford Colony, Montana, USA
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    45-8-109. Civil disorder -- prohibited activities -- penalties --

    So, yes you can have a Militia, but you cannot train (with or without firearms).



  12. #12
    Regular Member LeMat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalispell, Montana, USA
    Posts
    162

    Post imported post

    Here's the whole thing. Items in bold are interesting.............

    45-8-109. Civil disorder -- prohibited activities -- penalties -- exceptions. (1) A person is guilty of a crime if, with one or more other persons, the person purposely or knowingly assembles for the purpose of training in, instructing in the use of, or practicing with any technique or means capable of causing property damage, bodily injury, or death, with the purpose of employing the training, instruction, or practice in a civil disorder.
    (2) A person convicted of violating the provisions of subsection (1) is guilty of a felony and shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a period not to exceed 10 years or be fined not to exceed $50,000, or both.
    (3) Subsection (1) does not prohibit:
    (a) an act protected pursuant to Article II of the Montana constitution;
    (b) an act of a governmental military force;
    (c) an act of a peace officer performed in the lawful performance of the officer's duties;
    (d) an authorized activity of the department of fish, wildlife, and parks; the department of corrections; a law enforcement agency; or the law enforcement academy;
    (e) training in nonviolent civil disobedience techniques;
    (f) lawful self-defense or defense of others or an activity intended to teach or practice self-defense or self-defense techniques; or
    (g) a facility, program, or lawful activity related to firearms instruction or training intended to teach the safe handling and use of firearms or activities or sports related to recreational use or possession of firearms.





    Civil disorder are the key words here. I would think an intelligent fellow would not be involved in something such as preparing for civil disorder. Self defense and proper gun handling skills, yes - preparing for TEOTWAWKI, no.
    "Never belittle someone for carrying a small firearm. Commend them for carrying a firearm."
    -OpenCarry.org member MAC702

  13. #13
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Post imported post

    MontanaCZ wrote:
    45-8-109. Civil disorder -- prohibited activities -- penalties --

    So, yes you can have a Militia, but you cannot train (with or without firearms).


    O.K. this is the law you cited. How does this in any way impact the Governor's ability to arm the state militia in the manner that he sees fit? We have not mentioned training, but militia training would be for the constitutionally mandated functions, not civil disorder.

    45-8-109. Civil disorder -- prohibited activities -- penalties -- exceptions. (1) A person is guilty of a crime if, with one or more other persons, the person purposely or knowingly assembles for the purpose of training in, instructing in the use of, or practicing with any technique or means capable of causing property damage, bodily injury, or death, with the purpose of employing the training, instruction, or practice in a civil disorder.
    (2) A person convicted of violating the provisions of subsection (1) is guilty of a felony and shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a period not to exceed 10 years or be fined not to exceed $50,000, or both.
    (3) Subsection (1) does not prohibit:
    (a) an act protected pursuant to Article II of the Montana constitution;
    (b) an act of a governmental military force;
    (c) an act of a peace officer performed in the lawful performance of the officer's duties;
    (d) an authorized activity of the department of fish, wildlife, and parks; the department of corrections; a law enforcement agency; or the law enforcement academy;
    (e) training in nonviolent civil disobedience techniques;
    (f) lawful self-defense or defense of others or an activity intended to teach or practice self-defense or self-defense techniques; or
    (g) a facility, program, or lawful activity related to firearms instruction or training intended to teach the safe handling and use of firearms or activities or sports related to recreational use or possession of firearms.
    (4) Sections 45-8-107 through 45-8-109 do not apply to an employer or employees involved in a labor dispute.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Milford Colony, Montana, USA
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    I really do not have an answer for you. I can make some assumptions based on history in this state. IF the governor decided to institute the unorganized Militia, I am sure he would have few people show up. With prosecution in the 90's up here for the M's and training, the thought would be too radical, even if coming from the Governor. It would not surprise me that some would even think it a trap.

    While this makes for good debate, I don't see it happening. They will find someone to manufacture a rifle first, without an FFL, and then wait. After that I would guess that they would be sold through non FFL dealers and see what happens there. It is going to be interesting.

    -MCZ

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    344

    Post imported post

    Thundar wrote:
    Actually the best reply of the Governor would be to:

    1)Sign an executive order making a drivers license or state ID a Montana Militia card.
    That is probably the coolest idea I've ever heard of in my entire life !!!

    Unlike in every other state, the Montana DMV is actually a good agency. They have NO biometric scanners. I was able to get a MT driver's license as a homeless person, and accordingly the address on my DL is a private mail box. This greatly helps secure my personal privacy and is perfectly legal.

    As you all know, Montana is one of several states that have balked atthe FederalReal ID Act, which would have turned statedrivers licenses into National ID Cards.

    Never forget that Montana won the Real ID standoff. Montanans can use their driver's licenses for identification when they board commercial airplanes.

    They might also win the Made in Montana standoff as well, if they stand their ground.

    Remember that Montana Attorney General Mike McGrath wrote a letter to Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff stating that they would notimplement the act nor ask for an extension to do so. I expect similar correspondence again soon.

    And of course, the Montana Legislature unanimously passed a state law saying the state would not comply with the REAL ID Act, denouncing its requirements as costly, unnecessary, potentially violating privacy rights and a violation of state's rights. This law

    April 22nd, 2007 was a great day for freedom when Schweitzer signed the bill defying the Federal ID law.

    Stay tuned for the next great day of infamy.

    AUGustin


  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Kalispell, Montana, USA
    Posts
    260

    Post imported post

    An Open Letter To All Montana Federal Firearms Licensees


    Now ATF's letter only applies to those that have a signed contract with the ATF regarding the sale of firearms, and yes all FFL dealers will still need to fill out the Fed Form 4473

    But Montana's new law may not pertain to those who are contracted with the FFL industry, since under Montana Law, Montana made firearms are exempt from federal control.

    Like I said before, its gonna get nasty, but I believe Montana will win and Montana State Sovereignty just may be a reality :celebrate




  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Kalispell, Montana, USA
    Posts
    260

    Post imported post

    Screw the Feds anyway....



    Anyone ever here of Sheriff Richard Mack? He told the Feds to F Off and won in court, and the Federal Judge ruled in his lawsuite that the federal government has no authority to rule over states.

    http://www.sheriffmack.com/

  18. #18
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Post imported post

    An 80% gun is one that you buy unfinished and then finish yourself. No serial numbers or markings on the gun.

    Imagine what would happen if some of these guns stamped "Montana" were to show up :P
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
    Posts
    56

    Post imported post

    Well, it will certainly "get Interesting". Here in Wyoming, we will most likely see the same law passed next year. Our legislature only meets every two years, except for budget sessions. If we do pass legislation like this then we will definitely see some movement from F-troop. One thing I can assure you of is MANY of us in the Cowboy state will not tolerate an invasion of our sister state to the north. I can only hope the Washington idiots will come to their collective senses before things go too far. Not likely I know.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oregon, USA
    Posts
    281

    Post imported post

    Wyocowboy wrote:
    Well, it will certainly "get Interesting". Here in Wyoming, we will most likely see the same law passed next year. Our legislature only meets every two years, except for budget sessions. If we do pass legislation like this then we will definitely see some movement from F-troop. One thing I can assure you of is MANY of us in the Cowboy state will not tolerate an invasion of our sister state to the north. I can only hope the Washington idiots will come to their collective senses before things go too far. Not likely I know.
    I am going to encourage some in my state to try and get legislation like this passed as well. I also sincerely doubt that Idahoans will allow Montanans to stand alone in an invasion.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    296

    Post imported post

    It would be good if we in ID WY MT could all coordinate and work together through State Associations to share ideas and tactics along with vocal and e-mail support to each of our elected representatives when both in and out of session:

    Idaho State Rifle and Pistol Association

    Wyoming Shooting Sports Association

    Montana Shooting Sports Association

    We could support each other on:

    ID WY MT still needs to pass the no permit concealed carry with the permit still as an option for those that want a permit for travel and gun buying.

    WY still needs to pass the church concealed carry (w/o having to ask permission to carry in church). MT is good to go on this.

    ID WY MTstill needs to pass "bar" concealed carry.

    ID WY MTstill needs to pass open and concealed carry in city, county, and state buildings and grounds - like in the state capitol, county courthouse, peace officer offices, etc- where Citizens normally conduct business everyday

    ID WY MTstill needs to work with the NRA, GOA, SAF, CCRKBA, SAS, and JPFO to get Congress to allow State law carry in federal buildings where Citizens normally conduct business everyday - Post Office, Social Security, Medicare, Forest Service, BLM, etc -- just like starting in FEB 2010 conceal carry to start in National Parks !

    Any other things that need fixing ?




  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    296

    Post imported post

    http://firearmsfreedomact.com/

    Originally introduced and passed in Montana, the FFA declares that any firearms made and retained in-state are beyond the authority of Congress under its constitutional power to regulate commerce among the states.

    Since its passage in Montana, a clone of the Firearms Freedom Act has been enacted in Tennessee, and has been introduced in the legislatures of Alaska, Texas, South Carolina, Minnesota and Florida. Legislators in many other states have announced that they will introduce FFA clones when their legislatures next convene.

    The FFA is primarily a Tenth Amendment challenge to the powers of Congress under the “commerce clause,” with firearms as the object – it is a state’s rights exercise

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    296

    Post imported post

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/17716266/M...to-ATF-Letters

    Montana Shooting Sports Association reply to the ATF.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oregon, USA
    Posts
    281

    Post imported post

    IDAHO COWBOY wrote:
    ID WY MT still needs to pass the no permit concealed carry with the permit still as an option for those that want a permit for travel and gun buying.

    ...

    ID WY MTstill needs to pass "bar" concealed carry.
    For what it's worth, concealed carry without permit is legal outside of city limits in Idaho. I agree that an Alaska-style permit system would be nice, but just wanted to point out that Idaho is pretty close to that right now.

    With regard to the second point, can you cite a law that makes carry in a bar illegal in Idaho? My understanding is that intoxication while armed is illegal, but carry in a bar is not illegal.

  25. #25
    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lake County, Montana, USA
    Posts
    490

    Post imported post

    In my limited understanding, Montana and Idaho have always been pretty close 'allies' when it comes to stuff along these lines. In Montana it's already legal to OC in bars, CC is still illegal but hopefully we're coming around!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •