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Thread: St. Clair Shores Parks and Rec. Firearms not welcome

  1. #1
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    Copy of the SCS ordinance


    20.230 Firearms and dangerous instruments prohibited. Sec. 67A-20. (1)No person except an authorized City employee, park guard, or law enforcement officer, shall bring onto park property or have in his possession on park property any firearm or ammunition, any explosive, dynamite cap, fireworks, airgun, pellet gun, spring gun, slingshot, cross bow, bow and arrow, any device by means of which a projectile can be propelled, any device which can be loaded with blank cartridges, any trapping device, any incendiary bomb or material, any smoke or stink bomb, any tear gas or other disabling chemical or agent, any acid or caustic substance, or any inflammable liquid except fuel contained in the fuel tank of a motor vehicle, vessel, lantern, camp stove or camp heater, and not more than one gallon of liquid fuel in a closed metal container. (2)No person shall discharge any of the weapons or instruments listed in section (1) into any park from outside a park. (3)The Director may designate areas within a park where bows and arrows can be used. In such cases, the Director shall promulgate regulations for the safe use of such devices, and no person shall fail to abide by such regulations. (chap. 67 eff. Aug. 26, 1986)
    _____________________________________




  2. #2
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    Copy of my letter to the Mayor and Councilmember's


    [size=Dear Mayor ][/size]Robert A. Hison, Councilmember’s Mayor Pro-tem Matt Ahearn, Ron Frederick, Beverly A. McFadyen, Mark Moffitt, David J. Rubello, Kip C. Walby[size=

    While researching the Code of Ordinances for the City of St. Clair Shores, I came across the Rules and Regulations 20.230 Firearms and dangerous instruments prohibited.][/size]
    [size=][/size]
    [size=Sec. 67A-20. outlined in brief, below. The ordinance listed in Chapter 20.230, Article A, Section 67A-20 lists multiple restrictions for the possession and transport of Firearms, "in any park or recreation area".][/size]
    [size=(1)No person except an authorized City employee, park guard, or law enforcement officer, shall bring onto park property or have in his possession on park property any firearm or ammunition, any explosive, dynamite cap, fireworks, airgun, pellet gun, spring gun, slingshot, cross bow, bow and arrow, any device by means of which a projectile can be propelled, any device which can be loaded with blank cartridges, any trapping device, any incendiary bomb or material, any smoke or stink bomb, any tear gas or other disabling chemical or agent, any acid or caustic substance, or any inflammable liquid except fuel contained in the fuel tank of a motor vehicle, vessel, lantern, camp stove or camp heater, and not more than one gallon of liquid fuel in a closed metal container.][/size]
    [size=

    Under the 1990 state preemption law (MCL 123.1102, outlined in brief below), this ordinance is unenforceable in regard to firearm possession and transport. Furthermore, the existence of this ordinance, being in conflict with the law of the State of Michigan, is misleading to the people of St. Clair Shores and other citizens who may visit the City.

    As a St. Clair Shores resident, I am requesting this ordinance be amended within 90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Failure to amend this ordinance could be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the public of what is and is not allowed in the parks of the City of St. Clair Shores. I look forward to your resolution and response when this ordinance is amended.

    Thank you,

    Karl E. Norgan Jr.



    Ordinances City of St. Clair Shores, Michigan
    20.230 PUBLIC PARKS AND FORESTRY CITY OF ST. CLAIR SHORES, MICHIGAN][/size]
    [size=Chap. 67 Effective:August 26, 1986
    ][/size]Sec. 67A-20.Firearms and dangerous instruments prohibited
    [size=
    Sec. 67A-20.][/size]
    [size=(1)No person except an authorized City employee, park guard, or law enforcement officer, shall bring onto park property or have in his possession on park property any firearm][/size] or ammunition, any explosive, dynamite cap, fireworks, airgun, pellet gun, spring gun, slingshot, cross bow, bow and arrow, any device by means of which a projectile can be propelled, any device which can be loaded with blank cartridges, any trapping device, any incendiary bomb or material, any smoke or stink bomb, any tear gas or other disabling chemical or agent, any acid or caustic substance, or any inflammable liquid except fuel contained in the fuel tank of a motor vehicle, vessel, lantern, camp stove or camp heater, and not more than one gallon of liquid fuel in a closed metal container.
    [size=(2)No person shall discharge any of the weapons or instruments listed in section (1) into any park from outside a park.][/size]
    [size=(3)The Director may designate areas within a park where bows and arrows can be used. In such cases, the Director shall promulgate regulations for the safe use of such devices, and no person shall fail to abide by such regulations.][/size]
    [size=(chap. 67 eff. Aug. 26, 1986)][/size]




    Michigan Legislature FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990
    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

  3. #3
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Good job, wrcken2. Let us know how it goes.

    You can also coordinatean OC picnic at a city park to highlight the need to reform their illegal ordinance, andpublicize the gathering tothe media.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Baby steps,,,,
    I just finished sending the letter to the mayors office. Will have to see what happens next. The city does have some very nice parks though.

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    wrcken2 wrote:
    The city does have some very nice parks though.
    I grew up in the Snores (SCS) and you're right. They do have very nice parks. I've been trying to get my hands on a park pass ever since I left in 1994. Now the only time I get to go is during the fireworks.

    Anyway, good job wrcken2!

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    Good Morning all, Well it has been three days since I sent the letter to Dear Mayor Robert A. Hison, Councilmember’s Mayor Pro-tem Matt Ahearn, Ron Frederick, Beverly A. McFadyen, Mark Moffitt, David J. Rubello, Kip C. Walby.
    As of this morning I received this responce form Mr. Rubello "
    received and read"

    Not really what I was hoping for. Just have to wait and see how the rest of the council respond.


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    I reply saying "do you plan on taking any action pertaining to this matter?".

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    According to this rule, I guess that can't take a baseball and bat,tennis racket,badmiton set,water guns etc.... sounds like a great park!

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    Good job on the letter. If you have not yet sent a reply I would send something to the effect of

    Mr. ........
    Thank you for confirming your receipt of my request. I look forward to the amendment of this unlawful ordinance as well as any park signs that unlawfully state "No firearms" within 90 days, so that the city of St. Clair Shores will be in-line with state law.

    Sincerely,



    It sounds like they are trying to blow you off, so I would make sure to follow up.
    Keep us updated.

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    What if they do blow you off. For example, I sent the LEO packet via email to numerous police stations and requested a response to confirm they recieved. Very few acctually got back to me. What should be the next plan of action if that occurs?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    If they ignore it and keep this unlawful ordinance on the books than I would suggest a get together. Either a trash pickup or something else in the parks.

    However, the first thing I would do would be to give it some time. If nothing, then attend the next public meeting and voice your concern on the record. Then go from there.

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    Well as of today July 29, I have still only received one response from the council members. So I am sending a second copy to all of them.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    wrcken2 wrote:
    Well as of today July 29, I have still only received one response from the council members. So I am sending a second copy to all of them.
    Did you send that follow up email?

  14. #14
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    wrcken2 wrote:
    Well as of today July 29, I have still only received one response from the council members. So I am sending a second copy to all of them.
    Patience, I'm sure it's making the rounds to all the council members, PD Chief, and city attorney. I suggest you ask for an update from who every sent you a response.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Well, Its Friday July 30. This is the last e-mail I received form Mr Rubello.

    "
    I have been out of action for a few days, but I wanted to get back to you.
    What is your reasons for wanting to change an ordinance. Did something happen recently that made you want to change.
    Thanks

    Dave Rubello
    SCS City Council"

    This is a copy of the draft I will be sending to him. Let me know what y all think. If I need to change anything.
    Karl XXXXX Jr.
    XXXXXXXX
    SCS, MI. 48080


    Dear Mr. Rubello,


    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my request for an ordinance change. Glad to see you are back in action. In able for me to answer your question “[size=Did something happen recently that made you want to change?” ][/size]You first need to know a bit of history about me and Michigan Firearms laws.

    I am not a lawyer, I am just a law abiding gun owner. Being a gun owner requires me to know and understand the firearms laws of the state of Michigan. I have been a gun owner since 1980 and am a member of many online gun and firearms clubs as well as a member of the NRA. Being a responsible gun owner is something I do not take lightly. I have spent hundreds of dollars on training and education. Not to mention the costs of license and permits. Have been finger printed, have had background checks done by the Michigan State Police as well as the FBI. I am also one of almost 200.000 people whom are licensed in the state of Michigan to carry a concealed handgun.

    Now I can answer your question. The only thing that happened is that I was doing some research to see if I was able to carry my weapon into my city park to watch the fireworks last month. As it turns out St. Clair Shores[size= ][/size]ordinance listed in Chapter 20.230, Article A, Section 67A-20 does not authorize me to carry my weapon into my city park. As you can see from the excerpt below, This ordinance is unenforceable and misleading to all whom have a CPL. Concealed Pistol License formally known as a CCW.

    If I, as a law abiding citizen am required understand and follow the laws of Michigan. I am asking you and the city council of St. Clair Shores to follow the law as well. Below is an excerpt of the law I am asking you to abide by.


    FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990


    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    [size=
    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991 ][/size]

    [size=© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan][/size]

    Again thank you for your time.

    Karl XXXXXX Jr.


  16. #16
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    Pretty good. His question is very, well just plain stupid. I would include in their that the main reason you want them to change the law is because it is the duty of every citizen to hold their elected officials accountable and not intentionally mislead the people that have elected them. Also, because it's the law. No other reason is needed. He poses the question as if you have to give them a good enough reason before they will take action. Remember, they work for you not the other way around. Don't be afraid to let them know that. Good job, just keep on it!

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    wrcken2 wrote:
    This is a copy of the draft I will be sending to him. Let me know what y all think. If I need to change anything.
    Karl XXXXX Jr.
    XXXXXXXX
    SCS, MI. 48080


    Dear Mr. Rubello,


    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my request for an ordinance change. Glad to see you are back in action. In[shadow=red]order[/shadow] for me to answer your question “[size=Did something happen recently that made you want to change?” ]You first need to know a bit of history about me and Michigan Firearms laws.

    I am not a lawyer, I am just a law abiding gun owner. Being a gun owner requires me to know and understand the firearms laws of the state of Michigan. I have been a gun owner since 1980 and am a member of many online gun and firearms clubs as well as a member of the NRA. Being a responsible gun owner is something I do not take lightly. I have spent hundreds of dollars on training and education. Not to mention the costs of license and permits. Have been finger printed, have had background checks done by the Michigan State Police as well as the FBI. I am also one of almost 200.000 people whom are licensed in the state of Michigan to carry a concealed handgun.

    Now I can answer your question. The only thing that happened is that I was doing some research to see if I was able to carry my weapon into my city park to watch the fireworks last month. As it turns out St. Clair Shores[size=]ordinance listed in Chapter 20.230, Article A, Section 67A-20 does not authorize me to carry my weapon into my city park. As you can see from the excerpt below, This ordinance is unenforceable and misleading to all whom have a CPL. Concealed Pistol License formally known as a CCW.

    If I, as a law abiding citizen am required understand and follow the laws of Michigan. I am asking you and the city council of St. Clair Shores to follow the law as well. Below is an excerpt of the law I am asking you to abide by.

    FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    [size=
    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991 ]

    [size=© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan]

    Again thank you for your time.

    Karl XXXXXX Jr.
    I don't think he needs as much history about you though. You are a law abiding citizen and that is enough. The other thing is that you were not researching to see if you could carry your firearm. You already know you can so tell him that and that the ordinance unenforceable and illegal.
    I'm not trying to criticize, yo uare doing more than I so good job.
    D

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    Don't get cute with him, you're past that stage. It's time to talk tough in my opinion.

    1) Make sure he knows that the current exchange is evidence that he's been notified of the illegality of the ordinance.

    2) Also, point out that his comments will serve as evidence that he is willfully obstructing the repeal of an unlawful ordinance that he knows is illegal under state law.

    3) Then, state that if the city is unwilling to repeal an illegal ordinance, the city is willfully misinforming the public regarding their rights, under the MI Constitution--Article I, Section 6--to carry a firearm in self-defense.

    4) Furthermore, if he has discussed this with members of the city council or other city officials, he and the others are committing a conspiracy to deprive citizens of their rights under the law.

    5) Finally, state that with the above evidence and more, when discovered, that the city, and possibly himself directly, will be open to a lawsuit and liable for damages if an arrest is made under this ordinance.


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    CoonDog wrote:
    Make sure he knows that the current exchange is evidence that he's been notified of the illegality of the ordinance, and that the city will be open to a lawsuit if an arrest is made under this ordinance.
    +1000

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    Thanks to all whom made some comments. Very helpful. I did revise the letter i was going to send. SEE BELOW

    Dear Mr. Rubello,


    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my request for an ordinance change. Glad to see you are back in action. In response your question

    “[size=Did something happen recently that made you want to change?”][/size]
    [size=][/size]
    [size=][/size]
    [size=][/size]
    The only[size= ][/size]reason I want them to change the law is because it is the duty of every citizen to hold their elected officials accountable and not intentionally mislead the people that have elected them. As you can see from the excerpt below, This ordinance is unenforceable and misleading to all whom have a CPL. Concealed Pistol License formally known as a CCW. Also, because it's the law.

    I am not sure who's quote I used but thank you for the words of help. You guys were correct, they don't need no stinking history.

    P/S I did watch the city council meeting last night. There was no mention of the ordinance change.

  21. #21
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    Wrecken2, one quick correction. You do not have to have a CPL to OC in a public park.

    Also, if I may offer another suggestion. In the sentence "the reason I want the law changed" I would just say something like " the reason I want this changed" or something to that effect. I wouldn't refer to that ordinance as a law since it has no legal leg to stand on. Just my opinion.

    Good job, keep it up! Keep us posted to your progress.

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    Well boys and girls. This just in. I just received an e-mail from Mr. Podolski, See copy below.

    Mr. Norgan,

    The City Attorney concurs with your assessment of our ordinance and will be recommending the necessary changes to the ordinance for council action in the near future. Also you may be interested in knowing today’s front page of the Macomb Daily has an article on this very topic. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

    Sincerely,



    Kenneth R. Podolski

    City Manager

    St. Clair Shores

  23. #23
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    fantastic work!
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    wrcken2 wrote:
    Well boys and girls. This just in. I just received an e-mail from Mr. Podolski, See copy below.

    Mr. Norgan,

    The City Attorney concurs with your assessment of our ordinance and will be recommending the necessary changes to the ordinance for council action in the near future. Also you may be interested in knowing today’s front page of the Macomb Daily has an article on this very topic. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

    Sincerely,



    Kenneth R. Podolski

    City Manager

    St. Clair Shores
    Great news, I just looked that up.
    A nice mention of Michigan Open Carry.

    http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/...0006114137.txt

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    Great work and great results!

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