My First LEO Encounter

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So I have been UOC'ing for several months now. I started doing before I found this forum and only had a copy of the CA Penal Codes with me. I am grateful for this forum and the extra knowledge all of it's members impart.

So I was running errands in Soquel yesterday and as I was standing in the cell phone store an California Highway Patrol Officer approached me and asked why I had a firearm on my hip. I explained that I work all day on a ranch and when I go into public territory I make sure it is unloaded and continue to wear it- I further stated that I knew I had the right to UOC. He confirmed that I did indeed have the right and then he asked again to confirm that is is indeed unloaded . I knew he would be obligated to inspect the status of the weapon so I asked if he would like to. I allowed him to unholster my weapon and he verified that it was indeed unloaded and safe. He checked the serial and verified with DOJ that I am the legal owner. (I would like to point out that this is a good reason to have your ID on you. If I didn't have ID I could not prove who I was and my pistol may have been confiscated.)
He returned my pistol to me and I reholstered it. He expressed his concerns from the standpoint of an LEO.

Then the officer spent some time talking with a few onlookers explaining that what I was doing is perfectly legal and calmed their fears.

All in all I thought the officer was very professional, very knowledgeable of the laws, and very respectful. He was confortalble with me and at no tie did I feel threatened. Kudos to this officer. This LEO exprience was pleasant.

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I'm glad you had a pleasant encounter. It sounds like the CHP officer knew about "e" checks and was nice enough to share the legality of UOC to bystanders.

The only thing that kept this from being a "textbook" encounter is the fact that he felt the need to run an ID/DOJ check.

There was no justification for doing so. Once the 12031 "e" check is complete and the firearm has been determined to be unloaded, the interaction is done. Unless you were in the process of doing something illegal, he had no reason to demand ID (you weren't driving inside the cell phone store, were you?) and nothing you were doing requires you to prove that you are the owner of the pistol. It was a fishing expedition to see if he could create a reason to arrest you. Also, lack of ID is not sufficient cause to confiscate the pistol. You are not required to carry ID when you UOC. California is not a "stop and identify" state.

I would have politely refused ID and would have asked him this, "Do you stop people on the road who are not doing anything wrong and run checks on them to see if the car they are driving is stolen or if their license has expired?" Note, I said "not doing anything wrong". This isn't to be confused with a lawful stop of someone who has allegedly violated the vehicle code.

Actually, the best thing after he completed the "e" check would have been to ask, "Am I free to go?" and then go about your business.

By the way, did you catch all of this on your recorder?

All in all, a relatively decent encounter, and the CHP was, in typical CHP fashion, professional. The ID/DOJ check just bugs me.

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Question. Has the 12031 e been challenged in court yet?It seems very unconstitutional to me. Just becausea LEOsee's meUOC'ing meansthey can harass, disarm, and check to see if I am doing anything illegal without reasonable suspicion or probable cause while I am doing a constitutionally protected activity... What's up with that?

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Glad to hear you had a decent encounter, I know that a lot of new UOCers are looking for a bit of validation from the local LE. It's this human need we have to be accepted. Also it stands as an anecdote for the less-than-supportive significant others in our lives to say "You see, Officer Friendly didn't arrest me, I walked away with my property and wasn't harmed"

I agree with Nukechaser, I'd refuse ID and SN check. With that said, On my first encounter I refused ID check but caved on the SN check.

Congrats! Feel free to join us this weekend in Sunnyvale.

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Glad you had a good experience.

So if I understand this right, you can't carry a "loaded" firearm. If that's the case then I gotta ask, Whats the point? Might as well carry a 2lb rock that won't initiate any LEO encounters.

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SomeGuyInCali wrote:

SNIPHe checked the serial and verified with DOJ that I am the legal owner. (I would like to point out that this is a good reason to have your ID on you. If I didn't have ID I could not prove who I was and my pistol may have been confiscated.)
He returned my pistol to me and I reholstered it. He expressed his concerns from the standpoint of an LEO.

Then the officer spent some time talking with a few onlookers explaining that what I was doing is perfectly legal and calmed their fears.

All in all I thought the officer was very professional, very knowledgeable of the laws, and very respectful. He was confortalble with me and at no tie did I feel threatened. Kudos to this officer. This LEO exprience was pleasant.

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For knowledgeable CA carriers:

You guys got some law that says you have to be able to prove who you are and that you are the owner of the gun? And that it all has to check out with DOJ or your gun can be confiscated?

Sounds fishy to me, so I'm asking.

I would have thought its up to the government to prove it is not yours, rather than the other way around. Seems like it would violate due process andproperty rights. Just the demand to check would seem to violatethe Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable seizures and the 5th Amendment prohibition against beingcompelled to self-incriminate.

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Woodchuck wrote:

Glad you had a good experience.

So if I understand this right, you can't carry a "loaded" firearm. If that's the case then I gotta ask, Whats the point? Might as well carry a 2lb rock that won't initiate any LEO encounters.

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I also cannot load and make ready a 2lb rock. However, I can quickly pull a loaded magazine from its carrier, dump the empty in the gun, insert and load in3-4 seconds, and be prepared to protect my life and others.

The point is, that is all we are allowed by law to do, outside of getting "permission" touse our Constitutional rights. The odds of getting a CCW or open carry permit in Californiais slim to "ya gotta be kidding". So, we carry unloaded in the open. If that bothers LEO's....too bad.



In unincorporated areas it is different. Loaded carry is legal as long as you are outside a state or federal park, and in an area that allows discharge of a firearm (most farms, ranches, national forests are OK).

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Citizen wrote:

SomeGuyInCali wrote: For knowledgeable CA carriers:

You guys got some law that says you have to be able to prove who you are and that you are the owner of the gun? And that it all has to check out with DOJ or your gun can be confiscated?

Sounds fishy to me, so I'm asking.

I would have thought its up to the government to prove it is not yours, rather than the other way around. Seems like it would violate due process andproperty rights. Just the demand to check would seem to violatethe Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable seizures and the 5th Amendment prohibition against beingcompelled to self-incriminate.

Click to expand...

No, there is no formal registration of firearms in California, other than DOJ named "assault weapons". Handgun serials are sent to DOJ at purchase (but not longuns) and are recorded. There is a requirement to transfer all private sales at a FFL, with both parties getting NIC'ed (startedJan 2000). But all my non-store bought handguns were purchased in 1984 You are supposed to send handgun serials to the DOJ when you move here, but I understand few do.

There is no requirement to carry ID, other than when operating a motor vehicle. California does NOT have a "stop & check" law. LEO cannot simply stop you for no reason to ask for ID. Carrying unloaded in the open is NOT illegal, hence no probable cause for stop and ID. The serial can be checked ONLY if in the process of varifying the unloaded gun the number is plainly visible. Many of us tape over the serial, since case law does not allow LEO to remove tape (consitutes a search, for which a warrant must be obtained).

The only legal recourse a LEO has in an "E" stop, is to verfiy the weapon is empty, tell you have a nice day, and allow you to continue obeying the law. Lately, I've been carrying my SAA with filled belt loops. Yes, I understand I'm at a great disadvantage should something untoward occur. But it is much fun when getting an "E" check and having to school, step by step, the LEO on the function of asingle action

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nomidlname wrote:

Question. Has the 12031 e been challenged in court yet?It seems very unconstitutional to me. Just becausea LEOsee's meUOC'ing meansthey can harass, disarm, and check to see if I am doing anything illegal without reasonable suspicion or probable cause while I am doing a constitutionally protected activity... What's up with that?

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This is a good point and I am looking for anything on this...

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Army wrote:

Citizen wrote:

SomeGuyInCali wrote:

SNIP

Click to expand...

SNIP For knowledgeable CA carriers:

You guys got some law that says you have to be able to prove who you are and that you are the owner of the gun? And that it all has to check out with DOJ or your gun can be confiscated?

Sounds fishy to me, so I'm asking.

Click to expand...

SNIP No, there is no...

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Thank you.

So, that means whoever told the OPer about it was feeding him a line of anti-rights, pro-statist horse-hocky.

Lemme see, where'd I putmy shovel?

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Watch all these videos and learn.

http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/2009/06/newest-oc-videos.html

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Decent encounter minus the ID and serial number check, but the others have covered all of the important points.

bad_ace wrote:

Congrats! Feel free to join us this weekend in Sunnyvale.

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What time are you guys meeting up? I'm assuming you've been hanging out at the Starbucks on El Camino and Sunnyvale near (but not inside) borders?

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edit!

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Army wrote:

Citizen wrote:

SomeGuyInCali wrote: For knowledgeable CA carriers:

You guys got some law that says you have to be able to prove who you are and that you are the owner of the gun? And that it all has to check out with DOJ or your gun can be confiscated?

Sounds fishy to me, so I'm asking.

I would have thought its up to the government to prove it is not yours, rather than the other way around. Seems like it would violate due process andproperty rights. Just the demand to check would seem to violatethe Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable seizures and the 5th Amendment prohibition against beingcompelled to self-incriminate.

Click to expand...

No, there is no formal registration of firearms in California, other than DOJ named "assault weapons". Handgun serials are sent to DOJ at purchase (but not longuns) and are recorded. There is a requirement to transfer all private sales at a FFL, with both parties getting NIC'ed (startedJan 2000). But all my non-store bought handguns were purchased in 1984 You are supposed to send handgun serials to the DOJ when you move here, but I understand few do.

There is no requirement to carry ID, other than when operating a motor vehicle. California does NOT have a "stop & check" law. LEO cannot simply stop you for no reason to ask for ID. Carrying unloaded in the open is NOT illegal, hence no probable cause for stop and ID. The serial can be checked ONLY if in the process of varifying the unloaded gun the number is plainly visible. Many of us tape over the serial, since case law does not allow LEO to remove tape (consitutes a search, for which a warrant must be obtained).

The only legal recourse a LEO has in an "E" stop, is to verfiy the weapon is empty, tell you have a nice day, and allow you to continue obeying the law. Lately, I've been carrying my SAA with filled belt loops. Yes, I understand I'm at a great disadvantage should something untoward occur. But it is much fun when getting an "E" check and having to school, step by step, the LEO on the function of asingle action

Click to expand...

LOL you're too nice. I wouldn't even tell them that!

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bigtoe416 wrote:

Decent encounter minus the ID and serial number check, but the others have covered all of the important points.

bad_ace wrote:

Congrats! Feel free to join us this weekend in Sunnyvale.

Click to expand...

What time are you guys meeting up? I'm assuming you've been hanging out at the Starbucks on El Camino and Sunnyvale near (but not inside) borders?

Click to expand...

So as not to hijack this thread, for south bay meetups pop over to http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/27582.html or PM me.

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Nice to hear that CHP are recognizingthe legality ofUOC.Too bad about about the ID and serial number check. I rate the CHP performance a "D".

I love the part where the CHP is educating the onlookers. I might give extra credit for that effort (depending on what he/she said, of course).

"It's okay folks. Just a man with a gun. Move along. Nothing to see here. Move along."

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Sons of Liberty wrote:

Nice to hear that CHP are recognizingthe legality ofUOC.Too bad about about the ID and serial number check. I rate the CHP performance a "D".

I love the part where the CHP is educating the onlookers. I might give extra credit for that effort (depending on what he/she said, of course).

"It's okay folks. Just a man with a gun. Move along. Nothing to see here. Move along."

Click to expand...

Yeah- the education of the onlookers is in my book, worthy of a letter of commendation to the CLEO. This is much more effort than I have seen reported elsewhere and certainly an unexpected surprise. This I believe is the second published encounter with the CHP (the first, I think was Demnogis on a motorcycle.)

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I didn't see anyone else say it yet, so I'll be the first. NEVER give up your rights. By asking the LEO if he would like to perform an "e check" you were implying that you were giving him permission. It also implies your contact with the office was consentual.

I'm glad your first encounter went smoothly. However, it's a dangerous game to play when you give up your rights.

nomidlname wrote:

Question. Has the 12031 e been challenged in court yet?It seems very unconstitutional to me. Just becausea LEOsee's meUOC'ing meansthey can harass, disarm, and check to see if I am doing anything illegal without reasonable suspicion or probable cause while I am doing a constitutionally protected activity... What's up with that?

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12031(e) was challenged in 1970 (People v DeLong). The CA Court of Appeals held that 12031(e) would be a "reasonable search" if it were a search at all.

The court proclaimed that 12031(e) checks are not seizures of the person, nor a search of any sort. The check is a "mere examination".

Of course, in Terry the SCOTUS held that any detention is a seizure of the person (a well-defined central idea of Terry which the CA App Ct ignored). Terry also states that even a "frisk" (pat down of the outside of clothing) is a search, and is unwarranted unless very specific exceptions are met (the officer must reasonably believe the subject is both armed and dangerous).

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

I didn't see anyone else say it  yet, so I'll be the first. NEVER give up your rights.

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+1

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Here's a question maybe one of you California residents can answer. I'm just over the hill in Nevada, and often travel in California. If I'm carrying a Cal. compliant weapon (A Sig P6), UOC, and I'm stopped for an E-Check...what happens when the weapon cannot be found on the DOJ list? In other words, there is no way that a Cal. LEO is going to be able to prove that the weapon is mine. I do have a CCW that lists that weapon as being authorized to carry, but the CCW is from Nevada. Any ideas on how this type of E-Check would go?