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Thread: Bluffdale man shot while on neighborhood watch

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    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7252008:



    Bluffdale man shot while on neighborhood watch
    July 22nd, 2009 @ 1:16pm
    BLUFFDALE -- A late night altercation left one man fighting to survive. The shooting happened Tuesday night in a Bluffdale neighborhood. The victim, authorities say, is a member of the local neighborhood watch; the shooter is a resident of the neighborhood.



    Coming Up:http://www.ksl.com/emedia/slc/1297/129735/12973561.jpg?filter=ksl/img200[/img]
    Reginald Campos was arrested for attempted murder by the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office.
    The girls got into the car and drove away, but Serbeck and the HOA president followed. The girls became upset and according to the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office, one of the girls call her father, 43-year-old Reginald Campos, and said the men were stalking them.
    When the girls arrived home, Campos sent three of the girls inside and he and his daughter went looking for the two men and found them in an SUV a few blocks away.
    Lt. Don Hutson said, "They both got out of the vehicle. They were both armed with handguns ... words were exchanged, there was a verbal altercation, and unfortunately Mr. Campos, who is the father of the young lady, fired two rounds, possibly three rounds, at Mr. Serbek."
    Authorities say Serbeck was hit with one of the bullets in the left shoulder and it traveled near his spine.



    "We received the initial call, and essentially it was a 911 call from a gentleman who said, ‘I've shot somebody, I need the police,'" Hutson said.
    Serbeck was flown by a helicopter to Intermountain Medical Center in very critical condition.
    The Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office arrested Campos for attempted murder. The Sheriff's office says Campos did not have a concealed weapons permit, but Serbeck did.
    We spoke to neighbors who were with Serbeck last night at a neighborhood barbecue. They say it's no surprise to them that he was patrolling the neighborhood. They say he is a great guy who helps everyone.
    Neighbors David and Sheryl Babcock said, "He's a pretty peaceful guy. Because he has a military background, I'm sure he would defend himself in a situation like that, but his personality is not an aggressive one like that. He's very laid back, always one to make a joke, everyone's friend, quick to throw an arm around you. Everyone's friend for sure."
    The Salt Lake County District Attorney will screen the case.
    ---------------

    Wow that's crazy. Prime example of what not to do. I love that it says they were all armed legally!





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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    I belive the shooter was in the wrong.
    Zach
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    I belive the shooter was in the wrong.
    Yeah that's a good assumption! One shouldn't jump to conclusions, and definitely shouldn't shoot another human being over something like that... don't believe any felonies were being committed, not sure if he felt his life was being threatened but that's just wrong...

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    wow what an IDIOT. you cant just pull out a gun... i hope the shooter goes to prison for a VERY long time, and he deserves a nice fat felony on his record

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    wow what an IDIOT. you cant just pull out a gun... i hope the shooter goes to prison for a VERY long time, and he deserves a nice fat felony on his record
    ummmm.... What ever happened to the presumption of innocence until guilt can be proven? Do you not want this man tobe affordedthe same rights that you have?

    This man *may* have been protecting his daughter, and now somebody's daddy could go to prison.

    No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Except the father Armed himself after his daughter arrived home safe. Went out looking for the men instead of calling the police.

    He then confronted the men exchanged words and then opened fire shooting the guy.

    I ask what was he in fear of his life for if his daughter was home safe at her house. Why would anyone go back out and look for the BG then go up to his vechicle.

    Zach


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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Story is vague and considering the source, probably quite inaccurate.

    No judgement, sounds like a bad situation.

    How do you make a woman think you are stalking her while on neighborhood watch?

    Sounds like a lot of stupidity was flying around that area that night.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    Sounds like a lot of stupidity was flying around that area that night.
    My thoughts exactly! (Turns out the shooter didn't have a permit as it stated previously that both were armed legally)

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    SGT Jensen wrote:

    ummmm.... What ever happened to the presumption of innocence until guilt can be proven? Do you not want this man tobe affordedthe same rights that you have?

    This man *may* have been protecting his daughter, and now somebody's daddy could go to prison.
    Well stated.

    As reported (and we know how accurate that can be), the shooter may well have been largely in the wrong.

    However, I have to ask why the victim and his partner on the self-imposed neighborhood watch "exchanged words" with the shooter rather than defusing the situation. Maybe they tried to but the shooter was intent on doing something stupid. Maybe they were too quick to get offended and defensive when they were cut off and questioned about their interactions with the teenagers.

    Calling the police and letting them handle every little thing is one option. But it is hardly practical and if the two guys in the truck had turned out to be perverts or criminals of some kind we might well all be heralding this guy as a real neighborhood hero, a stand up kind of guy who helps make sure his neighborhood is a safe place to be. On the flip side, this outcome may explain at least some of the reason police so often discourage doing too much on your own. Lacking the training and tools the police have, it might be too easy for a last resort to be the only resort and while that might be morally and legally acceptable when a criminal confronts you, it is really bad news if you have confronted someone else, even if they turn out to be a criminal and doubly so in a case like this if it turns out he is not a criminal.

    So, what are the practical lessons to be learned from this? Other than to cower in our homes and call the police for everything that raisers our concern?

    A man has shot another without obvious legal justification and been arrested for it.

    Two men, on neighborhood watch and both reportedly legally armed and holding concealed weapons permits are confronted by someone and one of them gets shot, critically and potentially life altering so according to these reports.

    Seems to me there are likely some serious mistakes on all sides here. Some thoughts occur to me:

    1-Those who are legally armed for self defense need to diffuse rather than escalate situations. This may apply to both sides in this case.

    2-While I don't think we can or should hide in our homes and leave every concern to the police, we do need to be extremely prudent the moment we step off our own property to investigate something that is of concern. This clearly applies to the shooter.

    3-Situational awareness to avoid someone getting the drop on you, and not mistakenly thinking criminals all look like criminals. This applies to the victim and his partner on neighborhood watch.

    Other thoughts?

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Why do people feel the need to put in there 2 cents everytime something like this happens. I highly doubt anyone here knows the full facts on the case and are just judging on things they have no clue about. This man is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. The news itself never has all the facts and just reports. Just remember that could have been myself or any of you in this man situation.

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    wow what an IDIOT. you cant just pull out a gun... i hope the shooter goes to prison for a VERY long time, and he deserves a nice fat felony on his record
    I'm also sure blacksmith you would want the same rights and protection entitled to you under the law that the shooter in this case is entitled to. Sad to see such ignorance when people like you don't know the facts on the case. You just go off of what you hear and not know.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Why don't you reread the thread and come back later hmm?

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    thx997303 wrote:
    Why don't you reread the thread and come back later hmm?
    Well if you are referring to me. I have read the thread. Lots of ignorant people.

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    actually I reverse that statement there are only a couple of ignorant comments

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    See, never bad to reread what you have already read.

    I know I never get everything taken in on the first time.

    Hell, I just reread the OP, and found a bunch of stuff that I missed the first time.

    As that is, I wonder why they followed the girls in the first place. Seems a little off, but the story doesn't give a reason why the girls were followed, so maybe they had a reason.

    I don't believe I would have gone searching for an alleged stalker. I would however stay awake and post guard on my home.

    Or, that is what my mind is telling me would be the best bet, while I'm sitting here in a mostly stress free environment. Definitely a different atmosphere in which to think.

    Hmmm, still nowhere near the details required to make a judgement on this. Let's see how it plays out in court.

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    2nd Amendment wrote:
    Why do people feel the need to put in there 2 cents everytime something like this happens. I highly doubt anyone here knows the full facts on the case and are just judging on things they have no clue about. This man is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. The news itself never has all the facts and just reports. Just remember that could have been myself or any of you in this man situation.
    Cause this is the internet where everyone is an expert! LOL at some on the forum. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

    Prepares for banning.

    Someone will complain and whine, you know who you are.





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    holy cow wrote:
    Cause this is the internet where everyone is an expert! LOL at some on the forum. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
    If you think this site is bad, you sould read some of the six hundred plus comments on the KSL message board.


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Did anyone else hear the remainder of the 911 call?

    this is not word for word but something to the matter of...

    he got out of the car with a gun, i opened fire shot 3 times, he got what he deserved.

    something similar to that... not he best wording i would say..


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    younggun20 wrote:
    Did anyone else hear the remainder of the 911 call?

    this is not word for word but something to the matter of...

    he got out of the car with a gun, i opened fire shot 3 times, he got what he deserved.

    something similar to that... not he best wording i would say..
    Ahh here it is
    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-st...,1814850.story

    Caller- " i dont know i shot him 3 times. he got out of his car and pulled a gun on me and cocked it and i let him have it."

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    younggun20 wrote:
    younggun20 wrote:
    Did anyone else hear the remainder of the 911 call?

    this is not word for word but something to the matter of...

    he got out of the car with a gun, i opened fire shot 3 times, he got what he deserved.

    something similar to that... not he best wording i would say..
    Ahh here it is
    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-st...,1814850.story

    Caller- " i dont know i shot him 3 times. he got out of his car and pulled a gun on me and cocked it and i let him have it."
    Did you hear the plug at the end of that news story? She's talking about how the victim had a CWP but the shooter did not & she says"now under utah law it is legal for someone to carry a firearm with them"(although it probably should have clarified it a little better)


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    bmeldrum wrote:
    younggun20 wrote:
    younggun20 wrote:
    Did anyone else hear the remainder of the 911 call?

    this is not word for word but something to the matter of...

    he got out of the car with a gun, i opened fire shot 3 times, he got what he deserved.

    something similar to that... not he best wording i would say..
    Ahh here it is
    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-st...,1814850.story

    Caller- " i dont know i shot him 3 times. he got out of his car and pulled a gun on me and cocked it and i let him have it."
    Did you hear the plug at the end of that news story? She's talking about how the victim had a CWP but the shooter did not & she says"now under utah law it is legal for someone to carry a firearm with them" (although it probably should have clarified it a little better)
    Oh I understand the legal part of it. I was just saying that doesn't sound to good. wouldn't you want to avoid a phrase like " I let him have it" Maybe its just me but maybe word it different. " he pulled a weapon, shots were fired we need an ambulance." That recording will sound bad if it goes before a judge or jury.

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    hence why it's been stated several times before on different threads that you don't say anything to the police: "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law".Talking to dispatch/911shots were fired, there's a man down, we need an ambulance. If ever in a shooting incident:when takling to police say something like: "i'll cooperate fully but I need to speak with my lawyer first".

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    As more details (accuracy unknown) emerge, I'm thinking there are some more lessons we ought to take from this.

    From the perspective of the mobile patrol guys:

    1-If some nutcase cuts you off or tries to box you in, getting out of your car should be a last resort. Try reverse to get out of there. Even in reverse, a car is much faster than a person on foot.

    2-If you do get out of the car, you better decide whether you are going to talk first or whether you are justified to come out shooting. If you going to talk, don't have the gun in your hand. If you are justified in shooting and have decided that is your proper course of action you better be acting on it rather than just holding a gun in such a way as to give the other guy any justification at all to shoot at you.

    From the perspective of the protective dad / shooter:

    1-There are things to do yourself and things for which to call the pros. Leaving the home and tracking down guys who scared your daughter might be best left to police these days.

    2-Forcing a stop if you see suspicious or creepy dudes in another car is definitely best left to the police. Get a description and plate number, follow from a reasonable distance if you must, but call it in. Don't be forcing someone else off the road or otherwise become the aggressor.

    This whole case just rips my heart out the more I hear of it and think about it. Three decent guys trying to do right by their families, neighbors, and community. Three guys who would never have wanted to hurt each other if they'd met under any different circumstances. And yet due directly to a couple of bad decisions that prevented any good communication, one man lies in critical condition, possibly paralyzed and another man sits in jail possibly to be incarcerated for a serious crime.

    I guess the final lesson to consider is to get to know (at least by face) as many of your neighbors as possible. I know those who live around me, and those with whom I attend church. But there are far too many others who drive past my home every day, live 10 or so houses away, that I just don't know at all.

    After all else had failed, and all the other mistakes made, if one of these guys had recognized the other in the last moments, perhaps the shooting would not have happened. At the very least, get to know which cars your neighbors drive.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    This is a sad situation for all involved, everybody loses, even us the "gun community" because our family and friends first think of us when they here of stories like this. Everyone I know that hears of stories like these, are sure to tell me about it when they see me next.

    So, always let people know you would have stay at home with your daughter and called the police, but never would have went out and looked for the BG youself.

    I like to know if the guy who got shot, was shot in his car, how he was carrying, did he have time to draw his firearm, was his gun loaded? These are the things that interest me? Did the shooter have his Firearm at the low ready when approaching the car? Did he have it hidden behind his back, under a shirt/jacket? How did this guy get the jump on a ex-military guy?

    Things that make you say hmmmm? :?

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    Good points, bagpiper.

    utbagpiper wrote:
    2-If you do get out of the car, you better decide whether you are going to talk first or whether you are justified to come out shooting. If you going to talk, don't have the gun in your hand. If you are justified in shooting and have decided that is your proper course of action you better be acting on it rather than just holding a gun in such a way as to give the other guy any justification at all to shoot at you.
    I'd say stay in the car even if you are justified in shooting. Your vehicle is both a deadly weapon (much more effective than your gun) and some degree of cover (less than most people think, but the engine block will stop bullets).

    If you think it's a bad situation, stay in the vehicle for the mobility, power and cover it gives you. If you're getting out to talk things over and calm things down, for heaven's sake don't try to do it with a gun in your hand!

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