My Court Case

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T Vance wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

I think this is one of those times where it can be said, "Don't feed the troll."

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A troll with 3000+ post!

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Exactly.

After that many posts, he should (and I'm sure does) know the difference between a police officer detaining someone (needs RAS) under color of law, and a private citizen who is doing no such thing.

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I would be willing to help you rip the dvd and encode it to avi or another format...

I have the software only problem is i'm in mt.morris. but i can talk you threw it.

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Generaldet wrote:

If you can, you should post the video, or audio on you tube. That would be interesting to listen to. It sounds like they were on a witch hunt for ya T. lol

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+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Seriously... do it.

People need to see exactly how *some* (not ALL) officers view citizens as "criminals who just haven't broke the law yet". That is no way to perform your duty as LAW ENFORCEMENT. To enforce the law, you do not find ways to bend things around someone to make them illegal.

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Congrats on your dismissal, by the way. I knew it would go your way! :-D

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HankT wrote:

T Vance wrote:

I pleaded NOT GUILTY to the charge since I knew the reason they stopped me was illegal.

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What does the reason you were stopped have to do with your failure to have the proper tag on your license plate (and the citiation for that minor offense)?

Sounds like you caught a break on the ticket.

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Fruit of the poisonous tree. The officers wouldn't have had known about the tags had they not been detaining him for exercising a right.

If I'm carrying 9 kilos of cocaine on me, and an officer arrests me for open carrying, the drug charges would be dismissed. Am I wrong? Morally, yes. Legally? No.

Officers have to follow the law just like anyone else. If they're going to willy-nilly violate basic Constitutional covenants, then we may as well submit to letting them walk in and out of our homes as they please, in search of contraband to charge us with.

T Vance was a victim of uninformed officers harassing him. Is he guilty of not having a properly tagged vehicle? Morally, yes (depending on whether you believe being taxed for owning a private passenger vehicle is moral or not). Legally? NO.

It's a fine line... but it's still a line.

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wally1120 wrote:

That is cool that they dismissed your case. They knew that they couldn`t charge you for it cause they were fishing for something to get you on. I went to the Sheriff`s department and they said that A in car camera doesn`t exist, I think that is A lie they are trying to cover there butt. Cause they know that they handled all the OC situations that day all wrong. Also I stopped to talk to A police officer after they handled the incident they were called to I asked if another officer was working, He was talking about wanting to go to A IDPA shoot so I stopped to see if the officer would pass it onto the other officer. He said that the officer "dosen`t want to hang out with you gun toters" And that "I don`t like you so you can go somewhere else". I was sitting at A friends house outside and the one officer there pulled up and asked you don`t relly like that guy do you, I said nope asked what his name was and he said Seargeant Something weird. He then said yeah he was having one of them days and pulled off. I am not sure but A Sergeant souldn`t say something like that even if he is having A bad day. Sergeant`s are supposed to be professional.

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Is there some significance with capitalizing the word "A" in this post? I'm not understanding... perhaps some sort of hidden message? lol

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HankT wrote:

T Vance wrote:

The reason why I want to talk with them is to find out who they are, and if I can help them with anything.

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Um...., kind of like when a cop wants tofind out more abouta perfectly law abiding OCer....where there is no evidence that they are doing something wrong...uh, to , um, talk to them?

You mean like that?

You want to do essentially the same thing that a cop does to an OCer that we all chafe against?

Is that it? A consensual encounter, so to speak?

Heyyyyyyyy, are you really LEO 229 posting under a different ID?


edit: perghostrider's suggestion

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Allow me to weigh in on this:

An officer has every right to ask you questions. You have every right to not answer them.

A citizen has every right to ask questions of someone driving by their house. The driver has every right to not answer them.

Calling the police about a man driving down your street is tantamount to calling the police about a man carrying a holstered gun: In either case, YOU may be uncomfortable with it, but there is no crime in progress.

I stand by T Vance in this situation. If someone keeps creeping by my house, especially if they're looking at it... well I'm going to make an appearance and let them know that I'm aware of their activities. Talking to them is not illegal... no more than an officer making his presence known by trying to talk to someone.

Now if T Vance attempts a citizens arrest because the driver fails to cooperate... well that's a different story. Just like if an officer attempts an arrest for the similar reasons.

Nobody's rights are being violated here. T Vance has the right to walk into his yard and attempt a discussion with a suspicious character. He does not have the right to detain them for anything unless they commit a felony.

Personally, I would call the police and advise them of what's going on and let them know that you are going to attempt contact. They'll probably tell you not to... but they can't stop you either.

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HankT wrote:

I know that if I were driving a green Ranger, I wouldn't want to talk to some armed guy who is waving me down...

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Nobody is saying you would have to. You are free to continue driving.

But if you are someone casing his home, you may think twice about picking him as a target if you know that he's aware of your presence.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with attempting consensual discussion. It's when someone tries to hold you against your will, in the absence of cause, that a problem exists.

If you saw someone sitting on a lawn chair on the sidewalk in front of your house, facing towards your living room window, and just staring in... would you, or would you not, go outside to find out why they're doing it? Or would you relegate yourself to the fact that they are not breaking any law, and therefore ought to be ignored?

I'd certainly talk to them. If they didn't respond... well then I'm SOL. I'd call the police... but even they may have a hard time getting him to leave if he wasn't doing anything wrong. All you can do, sometimes, is establish a presence and let them know that if they're planning to do something illegal that you are prepared to stop them... hopefully that's enough to deter them.

1A protects our rights to speak freely. 5A protects our rights to keep quiet. 4A protects us against unreasonable search and seizures. Believe it or not, all three of these rights can coexist without violating eachother.

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A subjective note on suspicious characters hanging around your house....

A while back I lived in a really bad part of town and had many suspicious characters walk/drive by repeatedly. I made it a point to open carry in my yard and to make eye contact with everyone as I said "Hi" to them. Although many of my close by neighbors were victims of theft, burglary, and home invasions no one so much as picked a flower from the flower bed out front.

I know.. it is impossible to prove that my open carry had anything to do with my home being left alone. But I personally believe it was a factor.

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You know something weird about this topic? After I read it and participated in it... at about 1:30 this morning, I let my dogs out for their final potty break of the night. My GSD booked off towards the back of my yard (for reasons unknown), so I called her back. As she came back, my motion light went off and I saw that there were 3 men in my neighbors back yard, approaching my yard (we don't have fences). As soon as they saw me, they turned around and immediately headed back out towards the street behind me. I went back in my house, called the police (non-emergency line) and reported it. They sent a patrol unit to canvass the neighborhood last night, and are going to beef up patrols for the duration of the weekend. I also took the liberty of informing my neighbors to make them aware... and to have them keep an extra eye out.

They looked like clean cut teens... perhaps as old as mid 20's. But still... you never know.

Point of the story: Just be aware... and work WITH, rather than against, LEO's whenever possible. I know some of us tend to jump their cases when they mess up... but let's not forget that a good many of them do the right thing day in and day out. Let's remember to not let the few who mess up paint them all with a broad brush.

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That is why i have 2 dogs inside my 6ft fence, and I'm sure the barbed wire helps a bit too..

If they can make it past the dog's then they have to deal with me.





also the helping with ripping the DVD is still up, just pm me.

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I'm putting a fence up before the end of summer. More to keep my dog in than to keep people out... but I guess that helps too.

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Holy crap. People in your back yards, barb wire fences, police canvassing the neighborhoods.....good lord, I thought 1 gun would be enough protection for me the times I travel downstate. Sounds like I may have to call off the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to have a big enough entourage to safely go down there.

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As Foxworthy would say... I like to keep the grass this high... so the thieves don't know a house is back there:celebrate

Another from him that I like ... You break into my house, I will shoot you. My wife will shoot you and then spend thirty minutes telling you why she shot you.

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Yooper wrote:

Holy crap. People in your back yards, barb wire fences, police canvassing the neighborhoods.....good lord, I thought 1 gun would be enough protection for me the times I travel downstate. Sounds like I may have to call off the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to have a big enough entourage to safely go down there.

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Many areas down here are still very safe. My neighborhood, for instance, has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. But no neighborhood is impervious to crime... even those upstate. ;-)

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Yooper wrote:

SNIP Sounds like I may have to call off the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to have a big enough entourage to safely go down there.

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Completely unAmerican.

The proper approach is to double the federal debt with vast deficit spending on the military so you maintain the two wars and still have a big enough entourage to travel safely down there. (Hey! That is what the Federal Reserve is for, no? Piling up government debt into the stratosphere so nobody in 6 generations can hope to pay even the interest payments, much less the principal.)

Security problems like discussed above are obviously going to require two mechanized divisions, an air wing, an artillery regiment, and full support forces.

Leave out the MPs, though. Their presence would betoo close to a posse comitatus violation.

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I have 6 ft fence all around and two English mastiff's, the fence is to keep the bad people in, that way it cuts down on the monthly dog foodcost. Ps: it also gives the dogs exercise cheaper than chew toys !!!!!

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Citizen, I apologize, here I was actually thinking of a way to not incurr any more federal spending, but, with these bailouts, stimulus bills, and who knows what else, I guess I'll just add on to the debt and take my fair share

On a serious note (just kidding!), would a fully armored H1 with a GE minigun on top be sufficent?