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My Court Case

Nutczak

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
2,165
Location
The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
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So you were told you acted in a "beligerent manner"?? Anytime someone tries to defend their rights they are marked as beligerent. I see the police as being beligerent when they try to trample my rights.

read the snippet below, I found it in the WI thread;


ONLY BELLIGERENTS HAVE RIGHTS by Richard C. Donaldson and Alfred Adask
The individual Rights guaranteed by our Constitution can be compromised or ignored by our government. For example, in United States v. Johnson, 76 F. Supp. 538, 539 (D. Pa. 1947), Federal District Court Judge James Alger Fee ruled that,


"The privilege against self-incrimination is neither accorded to the passive resistant, nor to the person who is ignorant of his rights, nor to one indifferent thereto. It is a FIGHTING clause. It's benefits can be retained only by sustained COMBAT. It cannot be claimed by attorney or solicitor. It is valid only when insisted upon by a BELLIGERENT claimant in person." McAlister vs. Henkel, 201 U.S. 90, 26 S.Ct. 385, 50 L. Ed. 671; Commonwealth vs. Shaw, 4 Cush. 594, 50 Am.Dec. 813; Orum vs. State, 38 Ohio App. 171, 175 N.E. 876. The one who is persuaded by honeyed words or moral suasion to testify or produce documents rather than make a last ditch stand, simply loses the protection. . . . He must refuse to answer or produce, and test the matter in contempt proceedings, or by habeas corpus." [Emphasis added]
[align=left]Notice the verdict's confrontational language: "fighting", "combat", and most surprising, "belligerent". Did you ever expect to ever read a Federal Court condemn citizens for being "passive" or "ignorant"? Did you ever expect to see a verdict that encouraged citizens to be "belligerent" IN COURT...?[/align]
Go back and re-read that extraordinary verdict. And read it again. And commit it to memory, for it succinctly describes the essence of the American legal system.

Ignorance makes the public more "manageable" in the courts and in confrontations with the government. Insofar as government naturally seeks to expand its powers at the expense of the citizen's Rights, government has a vested interest in the public ignorance and consequent apathy. The interest in expanding its powers encourages the government to provide little, no, or even false, education on what our Rights should be.


Silence gives consent, is the rule of business life. To stand by, in silence, and see another sell your property, binds you. Silence gives rise to fraud - or - silence gives rise to agreement.


[align=left]Jack Lancaster: Only Belligerents Have RightsFight Your Way To Freedom![/align]
 

ghostrider

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Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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It's easy to look back on yesterday and analyze how we could have done things better. If done constructively, I don't see it as a necessarily bad thing. Regardless of how you handled that situation, I think what's important is that you have learned from it, are better prepared, and thanks to mistakes by the officers you aren't in any trouble because of it. IOW, you came out okay, and that's what's important.

Thanks for posting the audio, and the transcript.
 

emptypockets

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Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Midland, Michigan, USA
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I am listening to the audio from your encounter and trying to keep from getting too angry. There is just so much wrong with this encounter that it's ridiculous.

1. They way the female officer talked to your fiance was down right rude and should how stupid she is. Is it our fault that most of the people of Michigan don't know open carry is legal? People have eyes and ears and a brain that they can use to figure this stuff out.

2. Stopping you for a tag violation and then taking you through all that is just plain stupid. I know that the police will look for reasons to stop a person so they can search for more reasons to get you in trouble. (Oops, I guess he did say that you were being stopped for the OC. Still, to nail you with the tap issue.)

3. Taking your gun and running the serial number is a violation of search and seizure. They established that the stop was about open carry and a tag violation.

4. The way they tried to pin you with something. Don't they have some real criminals to harass?

5. The superior attitude that the officers had with you. It was definite that they were confrontational.

6. Telling you that you can't come on the property with your gun. You can still put it in the trunk and leave it there until you are done.

7. The talk afterward just shows how they view the common people.

T. Vance, sorry you went through all this. I realize LEO's have a tough job, but people like this give credence to the bad rep that LEO's get. I wonder if calling in the State Police would have made a difference? I feel violated, and I wasn't even there.

(Do you think they may have dropped the ticket to pacify you so you wouldn't go after them on a civil rights violation?)
 

yowilhelm

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
20
Location
Grand Blanc, , USA
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It is not unthinkable that someone would call 911....In these times there are enough news stories that have jaded right from wrong so some may actually believe they are doing the right thing by calling. The operator is just a garbage in / garbage out technician so he can't be blamed. The disturbing thing in this senario is the action of the LEO's. THey know OC is legal and to attempt to "jam up" a person and lie about a weapon free zone (my CPL has them listed and I don't think them stating it makes the law) This is the real problem. We have legislature making law, the media not reporting it acurately and certain members of the LE community making it up as they go! The LEO's are important and I truely believe there are a lot of good if not great ones I also believe there is a small minority like these guys. You should send this to O rielly or Dobbs to report on. If the Chief allows these officeres to operate unsanctioned after being confronted with this tape he should be removed from LE. Vance I would press this HARD in all directions. Keep in mind you broke no law and the tax money you spend to protect your rights was wasted! Go get em ........ Yo
 

emptypockets

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Midland, Michigan, USA
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yowilhelm wrote:
It is not unthinkable that someone would call 911....In these times there are enough news stories that have jaded right from wrong so some may actually believe they are doing the right thing by calling. The operator is just a garbage in / garbage out technician so he can't be blamed. The disturbing thing in this senario is the action of the LEO's. THey know OC is legal and to attempt to "jam up" a person and lie about a weapon free zone (my CPL has them listed and I don't think them stating it makes the law) This is the real problem. We have legislature making law, the media not reporting it acurately and certain members of the LE community making it up as they go! The LEO's are important and I truely believe there are a lot of good if not great ones I also believe there is a small minority like these guys. You should send this to O rielly or Dobbs to report on. If the Chief allows these officeres to operate unsanctioned after being confronted with this tape he should be removed from LE. Vance I would press this HARD in all directions. Keep in mind you broke no law and the tax money you spend to protect your rights was wasted! Go get em ........ Yo
Agreed!
 

gis

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Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
264
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
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T Vance, I just read your whole story tonight. I am a part of the LE community in Washtenaw County, but I work in the D.C. area now. I can tell you that the police officers you encountered are not typical of Michigan. I know that the mere act of OC (if no crimes commited) would not be prosecuted in Washtenaw County, so I am glad that you had the same result in Jackson County. This had to be nervewrecking for you and shouldn't have happened. I will tell you that the OC movement is having effect in Michigan. A number of departments including mine are now teaching their officers as a part of their in-service training that OC is legal in MI and is not by itself sufficient probable cause for a stop.If you want to make a difference, follow up with the chief and the main firearms instructor of the department. Suggest that they consider discussing OC legality as a part of their next in-service legal refresher. The Michigan State Police Legal Update has addressed OC and state preemption of firearms laws back in May of 2007, so by now this should not come as a surprise to any Michigan police department. I am glad that you now have your CPL. My personal preference is to carry concealed in Michigan, but you are completely within your rights to OC in Michiganif that's what you want to do.
 

Veritas

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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T Vance wrote:
I've had over 120 people visit my profile and listen to the audio over the past day and a half! Hopefully it will help someone in the future.
I'm one.

You also gained a new fan of your work. Love the beats. You and Sir Wellington sound awesome together too!
 

Veritas

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Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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gis wrote:
T Vance, I just read your whole story tonight. I am a part of the LE community in Washtenaw County, but I work in the D.C. area now. I can tell you that the police officers you encountered are not typical of Michigan. I know that the mere act of OC (if no crimes commited) would not be prosecuted in Washtenaw County, so I am glad that you had the same result in Jackson County. This had to be nervewrecking for you and shouldn't have happened. I will tell you that the OC movement is having effect in Michigan. A number of departments including mine are now teaching their officers as a part of their in-service training that OC is legal in MI and is not by itself sufficient probable cause for a stop.If you want to make a difference, follow up with the chief and the main firearms instructor of the department. Suggest that they consider discussing OC legality as a part of their next in-service legal refresher. The Michigan State Police Legal Update has addressed OC and state preemption of firearms laws back in May of 2007, so by now this should not come as a surprise to any Michigan police department. I am glad that you now have your CPL. My personal preference is to carry concealed in Michigan, but you are completely within your rights to OC in Michiganif that's what you want to do.
Thanks for your input. Proof positive that rogue officers are the exception; not the norm.

I've always said that the overwhelming majority of officers do the right thing. But with any business, the good deeds often go unreported because, let's face it... controversy spurs more excitement.

Support good officers and lambaste the bad. Keep things fair and balanced.
 

wally1120

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May 5, 2009
Messages
693
Location
Jackson, Michigan, USA
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I to had a bad experience with the police the first time I Open Carried. I wish I would have knew what I do now when my Dad and I got detained in April, I could have taken them to court and filed a complaint and had a lawsuit on JCSD. Also relly wish I would have knew about the FOIA as well because that would have relly helped me out alot. Wish I would have posted something about my incident, I probly will post what happened with my incident later and if people relly care about what happened.
 

Veritas

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Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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wally1120 wrote:
I to had a bad experience with the police the first time I Open Carried. I wish I would have knew what I do now when my Dad and I got detained in April, I could have taken them to court and filed a complaint and had a lawsuit on JCSD. Also relly wish I would have knew about the FOIA as well because that would have relly helped me out alot. Wish I would have posted something about my incident, I probly will post what happened with my incident later and if people relly care about what happened.
If you don't mind sharing, I don't mind reading.
 

ghostrider

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Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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wally1120 wrote:
I to had a bad experience with the police the first time I Open Carried. I wish I would have knew what I do now when my Dad and I got detained in April, I could have taken them to court and filed a complaint and had a lawsuit on JCSD. Also relly wish I would have knew about the FOIA as well because that would have relly helped me out alot. Wish I would have posted something about my incident, I probly will post what happened with my incident later and if people relly care about what happened.

I care. I usually recommend people not do so because it's a legal matter, and I believe a person's lawyer would want to hold that info back for the purpose of strategy.

If anything, send me a PM.
 

wally1120

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May 5, 2009
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Jackson, Michigan, USA
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I can`t give you an exact time frame of when the incident took place.

Dad and I were sitting at the house being board so we decided we would go for a walk to kill time till my Mom got home Just got the gun the day before I OC`d. Walking down Francis there were alot of people starying at us never saw anyone call the police though. Got into the laundry mat parking lot and there were a few people that were doing double takes on my Dad and I at that time my Dad relized that I had the Gun and sayed maybe that is why everyone is looking at us. Walked down the shoreline of Vandercook Lake. Started to head back Home made it by the the consession building and saw two Black and White Cruiser`s heading towards Hauge and a Gold Cruiser sitting in the Parking lot of the lake. Dad says I wonder what is going on,Wonder if they are looking for us. get out of the parking lot and to 3rd street we hear the Cruiser`s Open up,I was thinking OK here we go. Dad says relax we arn`t doing anything wrong we ae obing the law. 2 Cruisers are facing North one facing South 2 behind one in front of us. Cops have there Guns Drawn telling us to put our hands up and get on the groundI wasn`t going to,But saw there Barrells between my eyes and my as3hole puckered up. Dad told me to just do as they say we turn around,My Dad has a CPL,But in the process of turing towards the officers his shirt blew open and exposed his two .45`s. Get on the ground Disarm my Dad of his three guns,Disarms me of my one firearm,while having a gun shoved into the middle of my spine. Tosses my gun onto the Cruiser and got a few scars from it.Office walks me over to the Cruiser Frisks me. Got thrown into the back of a Cruiser VERY UNCOMFORTABLE. Sat there for about 20-30 Minutes while they ran the S/N and see if we had anything on us. They released us,But said my Dad had to carry my Gun back to the house and we had to wait to get to the house to even load them back up,BS.

On our way back home we went by the laundrymat and saw one of the officers that was there to detain us,He said when my Dad turned around the Officer just about SHI! his self. So at least we got something to laugh about out of the incident.

2 or 3 days later we were thinking about what happened so He went to the Sheriff`s department and talked to CAPT Stellingworth,Went on to say we broke several laws that day,Can`t carry a Firearm in Summit Township,And can`t carry into a County park,Township Ordiance. Dad says State law Trumps that so what laws were broken? CAPT says you see that stack of paper work on the corner of my desk? Dad says yeah But,what does that have anything to do with our incident though? Capt states that that is OC info,He is traing the police on the laws and that it wont happen again.

Oh almost forgot. Our incident was sent to the Prosecuting Attorney. Attorney sayed they are well within there rights leave them alone.

And about 2 weeks ago I went up to another office trying to be nice and ask about another officer that was asking about a IDPA shoot out at our club, Don`t rember the name of the cop but,He says that the officer doesn`t want to hang out with you,and I don`t like you Gun Toters and you need to go somewhere else, I try to be very polite and swallow my words that were going to launch off my tounge and not say anything else. If I heared his name I would reconige it,But I know he drives a White Cruiser Car 519.

Andevery now and then I have seen that cop car sitting down at the Girl Scouts parking lot

Every since that day I have a Passion not to care for Cops. After all they tote Guns around as well. And cops are not here to protect anyone else just there self. Hell I thinkif a cop was around theywould let someone kill someone else,Just as long as the gun isn`t pointed at the cop.


Man just thinking of the event again gets me pissed off again and now I am getting pissed off even more the more I think about it.

Oh almost forgot this as well back in Jaunary of this year we got new neighbor`s,Well the night they moved in there were two people taht lived there got into a fight in my yard, Go outside to see what the hell they were going and one of them act`s like he is going to swing a Bottle at me. Dad comes out cause the dogs were barking up a storm,guy starts calling us BITC9`s and is proving me to fight him

Dad wouldn`t let me:cuss:.Anyway he calls the cops,ROhas recieved two threats from the guy saying "If you come into my house, you need back up",and "You won`t arrest me you dont have what it takes". Anyway the cop is about to take off my Dad and I intervine and say isn`t he going to jail. cop says "No I wasn`t here to see them fighting so I cant do anything about it". So does that mean I could have shot him and not have to worry about the cops doing anything? I relly doubt that. So I also think that cops are how do I put this nicely? You know where I am going with this one.
 

djinxd

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Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
6
Location
battle creek, Michigan, USA
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T Vance, how did you end up with 3 officers that think the same way? I listened to the audio and I cannot believe it............
Way to go standing up for your rights. Nice job.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure the Target security guard is still upset that you were carrying a gun and they don't even let him have a full size mag lite!
 
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