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"Patron with gun won—that time"

user

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I was interested by this phrase, "And that situation could have worked out in a million different ways.", as though the armed response were some kind of random event, like a thunderstorm.  The lightening happened to hit the right bad guy this time.  



I really have to wonder why he thinks there could have been a million other possible outcomes.  And do any of them have to do with patrons spontaneously combusting?

I also liked this quip:
"Police, with all their training, don't always respond successfully to those situations. Civilians should not make a habit of trying."

First, most folks working as Police don't get much training - only what meets DCJS minimum standards plus whatever their local community is wiling to pay for; I always enjoy the situation where I'm cross-examining a cop in court, and the prosecutor tries to make a big deal out of his expertise derived from his training.  It always turns out to be a half-day classroom course taught by some sargent with an overhead projector, and the cop can't answer any questions about what he's supposed to have learned.

So I don't regard that as much of a comparison.  I've know a few cops and ex-cops who were really good with firearms, but that's because they enjoyed shooting.  Most of 'em have the same approach to the gun as a carpenter does to the hammer.

Secondly, what's up with the term, "civilians"?  Like cops aren't "civilians"?  Or have the police departments been militarized?

And finally, what about the idea that one might make a "habit" of being a potential victim of acts of violence?  I've got a fire extinguisher, but that doesn't mean I have a habit of living in houses that burn down.  It does mean that I have learned to use the fire extinguisher in the unlikely event that my house does catch fire.

Is this prosecutor seriously proposing that people should not be prepared to defend themselves if necessary?  

He was right about one thing, though, there's no substitute for good training, and everybody ought to get some.  And lots of practice, too.
 

user

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SouthernBoy wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
skidmark wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Also, he mentions missing someone and hitting an innocent party. According to the Virginia Gun Owner's Guide, if you are justifiably defending your life or that of someone else and you hit an innocent person, you cannot be criminally charged. This doesn't mean you can't be sued, however.



 



Could you provide the citation or quote from the book for that, please?



stay safe.



skidmark

The Virginia Gun Owner's Guide, 2006 edition, page 111, item #9.



"If an innocent third party is killed by a stray shot during mutual combat, each person engaged in the combat is equally guilty.



In stark contrast to this, in the case of a legitimate self-defense shooting, the person acting in self defense [sic] is not criminally responsible for an injury or death from a stray bullet. This is no guarantee that you will not be pursued in civil court, even if you are found not guilty."

Remind me to have a copy of VGO handy if I am ever faced with a personal problem like that. :?  I'm thinking negligent homicide or similar. :(



Is there no cite to statute or case law?



         Yata hey

An excellent question and I don't know. I attended a seminar this past Saturday evening where the host speaker was an attorney versed in this area of law (he is also a member of this website). I wish I had posed this question to him.



I don't believe I'd want to be a test case in a county known for its bias against carrying defensive sidearms.
I didn't look up any case authority, but I'm quite confident that the quotation is an accurate representation of the law in Virginia.  Actually, in a defensive shooting where an innocent bystander is struck, the assailant is criminally responsible, regardless of who fired the bullet.  There's a special kind of murder, called "felony murder", in which a person who is engaged in the commission of a felony (whether violent or not), and people (usually cops) who try to apprehend him end up killing a bystander (or themselves); the felon is guilty of "felony murder".

So, for example, Felon is in Homeowner's home at night for the purpose of stealing from the household safe, no question it's burglary.  No one who lives there is present.  Cops come in and shoot at Felon, missing him, but killing the baby in the apartment next door (older building without masonry partition walls).  Felon is liable for the murder of the baby.
 

SouthernBoy

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user wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
skidmark wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Also, he mentions missing someone and hitting an innocent party. According to the Virginia Gun Owner's Guide, if you are justifiably defending your life or that of someone else and you hit an innocent person, you cannot be criminally charged. This doesn't mean you can't be sued, however.



Could you provide the citation or quote from the bookfor that, please?



stay safe.



skidmark

The Virginia Gun Owner's Guide, 2006 edition, page 111, item #9.



"If an innocent third party is killed by a stray shot during mutual combat, each person engaged in the combat is equally guilty.



In stark contrast to this, in the case of a legitimate self-defense shooting, the person acting in self defense [sic] is not criminally responsible for an injury or death from a stray bullet. This is no guarantee that you will not be pursued in civil court, even if you are found not guilty."

Remind me to have a copy of VGO handy if I am ever faced with a personal problem like that. :? I'm thinking negligent homicide or similar. :(



Is there no cite to statute or case law?



Yata hey

An excellent question and I don't know. I attended a seminar this past Saturday evening where the host speaker was an attorney versed in this area of law (he is also a member of this website). I wish I had posed this question to him.



I don't believe I'd want to be a test case in a county known for its bias against carrying defensive sidearms.
I didn't look up any case authority, but I'm quite confident that the quotation is an accurate representation of the law in Virginia. Actually, in a defensive shooting where an innocent bystander is struck, the assailant is criminally responsible, regardless of who fired the bullet. There's a special kind of murder, called "felony murder", in which a person who is engaged in the commission of a felony (whether violent or not), and people (usually cops) who try to apprehend him end up killing a bystander (or themselves); the felon is guilty of "felony murder".

So, for example, Felon is in Homeowner's home at night for the purpose of stealing from the household safe, no question it's burglary. No one who lives there is present. Cops come in and shoot at Felon, missing him, but killing the baby in the apartment next door (older building without masonry partition walls). Felon is liable for the murder of the baby.
Thank you user for you weigh in on this one. While the text is clear in the Gun Owner's Guide, it's always good to hear from a practicing source.
 

skidmark

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I learn new things every day. Never knew the felony murder rule could be applied that way in a self-defense setting.

With that in mind, I'm going to suppose that a Commonwealth's Attoeney, even in a jurisdiction known to be unfriendly to law-abiding gun owners/toters, would rather go after the BG who most likely has a rap sheet than put the GG on trial.

What would make the situation better is if the General Assembly got around to passing a civil immunity bill. We have castle doctrine via common law, and "stand your ground" outside the home by statute.

stay safe.

skidmark
 

Chuckles

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Repeater wrote:
Becca Knox, director of research for the Brady Campaign, says there are fewer than 200 justifiable gun homicides each year out of a total of more than 10,000 gun homicides.
We all know this particular piece of stat does not capture a lot of self-defense scenarios, but even if it's true, is she saying those 200 people should have sacrificed their lives for the cause of Brady Campaign?
 

SouthernBoy

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skidmark wrote:
I learn new things every day. Never knew the felony murder rule could be applied that way in a self-defense setting.

With that in mind, I'm going to suppose that a Commonwealth's Attoeney, even in a jurisdiction known to be unfriendly to law-abiding gun owners/toters, would rather go after the BG who most likely has a rap sheet than put the GG on trial.

What would make the situation better is if the General Assembly got around to passing a civil immunity bill. We have castle doctrine via common law, and "stand your ground" outside the home by statute.

stay safe.

skidmark
I could not agree more with this suggestion. I have written to the then governor (Allen) about this very thing. Good people should not have to endure legal costs, or worse, for actions which have already be deemed excusable in the criminal sense. This is unconscionable.
 

va_tazdad

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nova wrote:
Police, with all their training, don't always respond successfully to those situations. Civilians should not make a habit of trying.


Somebody for the last freaking time tell this guy police officers are civilians too.

All this does is further the "us vs. them" mentality among some LEOs and citizens alike.

I for one won't lie down on the ground cowering, waiting to be executed. Never.

Although I agree with you about the status of the police, they and Firefighters are considered by most to be in the "Para-military organizations" category as uniformed representatives of government. Many don't understand the difference.
 
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