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Thread: warren parks

  1. #1
    Regular Member johnniebravo's Avatar
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    I oc'ed for the first time two days ago at Busey park on Frazho Rd when I took my 2 lil ones over there and there is a sign that states no firearms. No one said anything but I got some looks but when I went home a lil while later(i live across the street)I was in the living room and noticed a Warren PD cruiser in the parking lot.

  2. #2
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Next time you should go talk to the officer if you have time.

    Remember, we're trying to make friends.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Given their heavy handed nature I've seen in the past, and given their hugely unnecessary response to the gigantic picnic last year, including the one needless stop and ID of the guy walking by himself home from it, I would be very careful about trying to make friends. They have done lots to prove they can't be trusted by open carriers, and nothing to prove they can be.

    In regards to contacting them, I'd say it would still be a good idea. Lingering problems can only be solved with communication. I'd just do it by sending a polite but firm letter to the chief, explaining that you are worried that that officer, and maybe others are misinformed of open carrying legalities, and the fact that a 911 call is not probable cause to stop someone for legally open carrying.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I would suggest a letter to the city about the unenforceable nature of the "No Firearms in the park" sign.

    Venator - can you provide some help on this one?
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  5. #5
    Regular Member johnniebravo's Avatar
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    I agree that we are out to make friends but I want to make sure when I do it that I do it the right way and not hurt our cause, so im kinda careful when it comes LE contact. When I walked up the sidewalk I was kinda shocked to see the sign. I thought after the picnic you folks had here inWarren that things would have changed a bit, I guessI was wrong.I had a conversation with one of the officers that patrol my neighborhood a lil while back and for some reason it turned to OC and he made it clear in no certain words that he didnt like OC legal or not.

  6. #6
    Regular Member johnniebravo's Avatar
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    I agree that we are out to make friends but I want to make sure when I do it that I do it the right way and not hurt our cause, so im kinda careful when it comes LE contact. When I walked up the sidewalk I was kinda shocked to see the sign. I thought after the picnic you folks had here inWarren that things would have changed a bit, I guessI was wrong.I had a conversation with one of the officers that patrol my neighborhood a lil while back and for some reason it turned to OC and he made it clear in no certain words that he didnt like OC legal or not.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Johnnie, do you carry at least 1 recorder?

    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  8. #8
    Regular Member johnniebravo's Avatar
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    I had one the other day at the park, i wasnt sure what to expect if a 911 call went out about me .

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    jonnie could you please put your state in your profile so we get credit for it.

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    Johnniebravo,

    Look here for ordinances pertaining to keyword "Firearm" for the City of Warren:

    http://www.municode.com/RESOURCES/co...asp?stateID=22


    I have found that Warren has some really old codes and have not been updated since the 1990 Preemption act or with MI's concealed-carry laws. Somehow, carrying a firearm for protection is an "Offense Against Public Safety".

    Sec. 22-165. Carrying loaded firearm. It shall be unlawful for any person, except police officers or any person duly licensed by law, to carry any loaded firearm within the city. (Code 1967, § 8-209(4))

    Sec. 22-166. Carrying concealed weapon. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a police officer to carry a firearm thirty (30) inches or less in length on his or her person, concealed or otherwise, in the public streets, the alleys, public shopping centers or places of business frequented by the public, public parks, public school property, property of the Macomb County Community College, locations of religious worship open to the public, or any other public place in the city, unless the bearer possesses a duly authorized unexpired state license to carry a concealed weapon. (Code 1967, § 8-209(7))

    Sec. 22-167. Carrying firearm over 30 inches. (a)It shall be unlawful for any person other than a police officer to carry a firearm commonly referred to as a longarm (rifle, shotgun or firearm over thirty (30) inches overall length) on the public streets, alleys, public shopping centers or places of business, public parks, public school property, property of the Macomb County Community College, locations of religious worship open to the public, or any other public place within the city, whether cased or uncased, except under the provisions of this section. (b)Unloaded longarms may be transported from a place of purchase to the residence of the purchaser if enclosed in a carton, container, closed gun case, or wrapped completely in commercial wrapping paper securely closed by tape or string, while being so transported. (c)Unloaded longarms may be transported by motor vehicle to and from hunting and firearms practice or target shooting, but must be fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case or carried in the trunk of the vehicle. (d)Unloaded longarms may be carried by persons seventeen (17) years and older, on foot, to and from a regulated gun range, when the firearm is fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case. Persons so involved shall proceed to and from the gun range without delay by avoiding loitering on the public streets and all other public places within the city. (Code 1967, § 8-209(8))

    Sec. 22-168. Dangerous weapons. (a)No person shall possess on their person, on a bicycle, on a motorcycle or motor bike, or in the passenger compartment of any vehicle, any machine gun, sawed-off shotgun, sling shot, sand club, sand bag, switch-blade knife, stiletto, dagger, dirk, razor, knife having a blade over three (3) inches in length, metal knuckles, martial arts weapon, gun, handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, BB gun, pellet gun, air gun, imitation pistol, or any dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, or any instrument attached to or designed to be attached to any firearm for the purpose of silencing, lessening, or muffling the noise of the firing of any firearm; except as otherwise permitted by law. A person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to the city such weapon or instrument. (b)No person under the age of eighteen (18) shall possess a blow gun or a crossbow. (c)No person shall sell blow guns or crossbows to any one under the age of eighteen (18). (d)Sections (b) and (c) shall not prohibit the possession of or sale of a crossbow to physically disabled persons twelve (12) years or older when said possession and/or purchase is pursuant to a permit granted by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, and such person is in possession of said permit. (Code 1967, § 8-210; Ord. No. 80-452, § 1, 4-12-94; Ord. No. 80-502, § 1, 10-22-96)
    Warren desperately needs MOC's help!

  11. #11
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    johnniebravo wrote:
    I had one the other day at the park, i wasnt sure what to expect if a 911 call went out about me .
    ALWAYS carry a recorder, if not 2 or 3. Start it up if you have the slightest hint that you will be encountering police. When in a situation where the risk of police contact seems high, I keep my primary recorder in hand so I don't get shot reaching for it. That way, even if I get ordered to raise my hands to the air, I can still get it going.

    I also like carrying a camera, pen and paper, and a cell phone to call 911 and ask for the help of the MSP and the OCSD if it becomes necessary.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  12. #12
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    Michigander wrote:
    Given their heavy handed nature I've seen in the past, and given their hugely unnecessary response to the gigantic picnic last year, including the one needless stop and ID of the guy walking by himself home from it, I would be very careful about trying to make friends. They have done lots to prove they can't be trusted by open carriers, and nothing to prove they can be.

    In regards to contacting them, I'd say it would still be a good idea. Lingering problems can only be solved with communication. I'd just do it by sending a polite but firm letter to the chief, explaining that you are worried that that officer, and maybe others are misinformed of open carrying legalities, and the fact that a 911 call is not probable cause to stop someone for legally open carrying.
    Yes, I'd recommend great caution in contacting police under these circumstances (based on last years picnic, I'd say any circumstances re. the Warren Police). You most certainly should volunteer any info like, "yeah, I'm probably the one you were called about." Best thing to do would be to casually greet them as your walking by, and ask what's going on. If they ask if your the one with the gun, just respond by saying something along the line of, "it's legal"(matter of factly, as if it matters little if you were the one carrying). Is it unfair of me to have an attitude like this toward the Warren PD, I don't think so given in mind what happened last year, and they higher ups response.

    Ordinarily I'd say give them the benefit of the doubt that they might have been investigating by just driving by, but Warren PD has earned a great amount of not only distrust, but lack of respect for the way they behaved last year (that drive by still leaves me disgusted. With people like that on the force, we're better off with the gangbangers down the block).

  13. #13
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    It has come to my attention that you have an ordinance that bans firearms from commission buildings. This ordinance is unlawful

    and unenforceable due to MCL 123.1102. The offending ordinance is below.









    No person or organization



    (3) Carry or use any firearm of any description, air rifles or slingshots or discharge

    any fireworks or explosive devices of any nature.

    (4) Erect any structure.

    (5) Canvass, advertise, solicit, vend or rent any service, merchandise or object of

    any kind.

    (6) Hold or participate in any public function other than those conducted by the city.

    (7) For any gatherings in excess of 500 people, chapter 42 of this Code shall apply.

    (Code 1965, Sec. 8.07; Ord. No. 747, Sec. 1, 11-28-91)


    Sec. 18-34. Enumeration of forbidden acts.
    Within the cemetery, no person shall loiter, litter, use profane language, bring in or

    consume any alcoholic beverage or controlled substance, peddle or solicit the sale of any

    commodity unconnected to cemetery usage, place signs or notices, possess firearms unless the

    person is a duly authorized law enforcement officer or a duly authorized military escort for a

    veteran's funeral or memorial service, allow animals to run at large or otherwise beyond his

    control, or engage in any play or recreational activity.

    (Ord. No. 772, Sec. 12.08(c), 12-21-92)










    As you may or may not know, in 1990 the State of Michigan passed MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit

    of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any

    other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms,

    ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law

    or a law of this state.

    In MCRGO v. Ferndale, the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon

    firearms possession.

    THE MICHIGAN APPEALS COURT CONCLUDED April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting

    and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any

    ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which

    were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local

    regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and,

    consequently, we reverse.

    Please alter this ordinance and any others you may have the ban firearms from government properties, so that it/they comply

    with state law. Failure to do so is a violation of MCL 123.1102 and is subject to legal actions including civil litigation, as was filed

    upon the City of Ferndale in 2003.

    Please respond to my request within 10 business days. You may respond via by email at my personal email address of

    gcannon@miopencarry.org . I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Respectfully, G. Cannon
    gcannon@miopencarry.org







  14. #14
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Arrogant is the word that comes to mind concerning Warren PD, oh and stupidity, not ignorance, I don't want to insult the ignorant. I've spoken with several officers and one "supervisor" Sgt. Lou Busch, who unequivocally stated that if I OC in "his town" then I can expect a visit from a PO. When offered the LEO packet, he stated that he didn't want it, what he wanted was an AGO, when I told him there were several in the packet he took it, somewhat unwillingly. They have no intentions of cooperating willingly. It's disgusting.

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Warren PD knows what the law is and that the parks ordinance is unenforceable. If it was they would have arrested about 75 people last year.

    If they should enforce it now, you would have a suit as they are abritary and caprices in their enforcement. Generaldet is our SE coordinator PM him and see if he will send an update including the LEAF article.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    No problem, I will send something out to them today.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    LEAF attachment was also included.







    Dear Warren City Council members and Warren police department,

    It has come to my attention that your public parks have signs stating “No firearms”.[/b]

    Under the 1990 state preemption law (MCL 123.1102, outlined in brief below), this ordinance is unenforceable in regard to firearm possession. Furthermore, the existence of these signs, being in conflict with the law of the State of Michigan, is misleading to the people of Warren and other citizens who may visit the City.

    I am requesting these signs be either updated or removed within 90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Failure to amend this ordinance could be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the public of what is and is not allowed in the parks.


    I have also attached a copy of the Law Enforcement Action Forum Newsletter issued by the Michigan Municipal League on lawful open carry. I look forward to your resolution and response when these signs are amended.

    Thank you,


    Michigan Legislature FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990
    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3uzohtmics2b4u45avhaptfn))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-123-1102

  18. #18
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    What is leaf

  19. #19
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    cabman1 wrote:
    What is leaf
    Law Enforcement Action Forum

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25744.html

  20. #20
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    A Potential Nightmare? I was planning on bringing that to court with me today.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    Update. Here is the response from city council and what was sent after.

    received 8-6-09
    Mr. ,

    You are correct that the sign and ordinance are not enforceable. The police department is aware of this and I have made sure that Mr. Bowman of Parks & Rec is aware of this as well. At this time, I am not sure if he will decide to remove the signs or not. I hope this helps answer your question. Thank You, Mary Kamp - Council President


    sent 8-6-09
    Council President Kamp,

    Thank you for responding to my request. I appreciate the cooperation of the city of Warren and its city council member regarding this issue. My concern is that knowingly having an unenforceable ordinance on the books and signs in your parks that are contrary to state law could be considered an act of malfeasance and open the city up to a lawsuit if an incident ever occurred. As you stated the signs are not enforceable, so keeping them up knowing this is willfully misleading the public. I appreciate that you have checked with the local police department and the parks and rec department and that they understand the nature of the situation. It is the responsibility of every citizen to hold elected officials to their sworn duties and to uphold the law. I ask nothing more thanthe city of Warren to do just that. This is why I am requesting that all signs and or ordinances be either removed or amended within, now 76 days to fully comply with Michigan state law. Thank you,

  22. #22
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    keep up the good work :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

  23. #23
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    lol Where did all the paragraphs go?? I swear proper sentence structure was used!

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    CoonDog wrote:
    Johnniebravo,

    Look here for ordinances pertaining to keyword "Firearm" for the City of Warren:

    http://www.municode.com/RESOURCES/co...asp?stateID=22


    I have found that Warren has some really old codes and have not been updated since the 1990 Preemption act or with MI's concealed-carry laws. Somehow, carrying a firearm for protection is an "Offense Against Public Safety".

    Sec. 22-165. Carrying loaded firearm. It shall be unlawful for any person, except police officers or any person duly licensed by law, to carry any loaded firearm within the city. (Code 1967, § 8-209(4))

    Sec. 22-166. Carrying concealed weapon. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a police officer to carry a firearm thirty (30) inches or less in length on his or her person, concealed or otherwise, in the public streets, the alleys, public shopping centers or places of business frequented by the public, public parks, public school property, property of the Macomb County Community College, locations of religious worship open to the public, or any other public place in the city, unless the bearer possesses a duly authorized unexpired state license to carry a concealed weapon. (Code 1967, § 8-209(7))

    Sec. 22-167. Carrying firearm over 30 inches. (a)It shall be unlawful for any person other than a police officer to carry a firearm commonly referred to as a longarm (rifle, shotgun or firearm over thirty (30) inches overall length) on the public streets, alleys, public shopping centers or places of business, public parks, public school property, property of the Macomb County Community College, locations of religious worship open to the public, or any other public place within the city, whether cased or uncased, except under the provisions of this section. (b)Unloaded longarms may be transported from a place of purchase to the residence of the purchaser if enclosed in a carton, container, closed gun case, or wrapped completely in commercial wrapping paper securely closed by tape or string, while being so transported. (c)Unloaded longarms may be transported by motor vehicle to and from hunting and firearms practice or target shooting, but must be fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case or carried in the trunk of the vehicle. (d)Unloaded longarms may be carried by persons seventeen (17) years and older, on foot, to and from a regulated gun range, when the firearm is fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case. Persons so involved shall proceed to and from the gun range without delay by avoiding loitering on the public streets and all other public places within the city. (Code 1967, § 8-209(8))

    Sec. 22-168. Dangerous weapons. (a)No person shall possess on their person, on a bicycle, on a motorcycle or motor bike, or in the passenger compartment of any vehicle, any machine gun, sawed-off shotgun, sling shot, sand club, sand bag, switch-blade knife, stiletto, dagger, dirk, razor, knife having a blade over three (3) inches in length, metal knuckles, martial arts weapon, gun, handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, BB gun, pellet gun, air gun, imitation pistol, or any dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, or any instrument attached to or designed to be attached to any firearm for the purpose of silencing, lessening, or muffling the noise of the firing of any firearm; except as otherwise permitted by law. A person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to the city such weapon or instrument. (b)No person under the age of eighteen (18) shall possess a blow gun or a crossbow. (c)No person shall sell blow guns or crossbows to any one under the age of eighteen (18). (d)Sections (b) and (c) shall not prohibit the possession of or sale of a crossbow to physically disabled persons twelve (12) years or older when said possession and/or purchase is pursuant to a permit granted by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, and such person is in possession of said permit. (Code 1967, § 8-210; Ord. No. 80-452, § 1, 4-12-94; Ord. No. 80-502, § 1, 10-22-96)
    Warren desperately needs MOC's help!
    Wouldn't a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport Pistol serve the purpose of "duly licensed by law"?

    A CPL would be needed to be exempt from the Concealed Carry provision; local ordinance matches state law. The issue of "concealed or otherwise" would need to be dealt with. they need to remove "or otherwise" as this is different than state law.

    IMHO, The real problem is the sign itself. It appears that it is placed there to deter the general public from carrying a firearm because the lawful carry of a firearm would not really be prohibited. Sort of like saying "Legal carry of a firearm is permitted", but put in the negative to obscure the issue.



    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Generaldet wrote:
    . . . I have made sure that Mr. Bowman of Parks & Rec is aware of this . . . I am not sure if he will decide to remove the signs or not. . . .Mary Kamp - Council President . . .
    Another way to say what Ms. Kamp is saying: "I amnot sure if Mr. Bowmanwill decide to quit misleading the public or not."

    Amazing!

    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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