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warren parks

johnniebravo

Regular Member
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
49
Location
Warren Michigan, ,
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I oc'ed for the first time two days ago at Busey park on Frazho Rd when I took my 2 lil ones over there and there is a sign that states no firearms. No one said anything but I got some looks but when I went home a lil while later(i live across the street)I was in the living room and noticed a Warren PD cruiser in the parking lot.
 

Michigander

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Mulligan's Valley
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Given their heavy handed nature I've seen in the past, and given their hugely unnecessary response to the gigantic picnic last year, including the one needless stop and ID of the guy walking by himself home from it, I would be very careful about trying to make friends. They have done lots to prove they can't be trusted by open carriers, and nothing to prove they can be.

In regards to contacting them, I'd say it would still be a good idea. Lingering problems can only be solved with communication. I'd just do it by sending a polite but firm letter to the chief, explaining that you are worried that that officer, and maybe others are misinformed of open carrying legalities, and the fact that a 911 call is not probable cause to stop someone for legally open carrying.
 

PDinDetroit

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Jun 20, 2009
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SE, Michigan, USA
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I would suggest a letter to the city about the unenforceable nature of the "No Firearms in the park" sign.

Venator - can you provide some help on this one?
 

johnniebravo

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May 9, 2009
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Warren Michigan, ,
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I agree that we are out to make friends but I want to make sure when I do it that I do it the right way and not hurt our cause, so im kinda careful when it comes LE contact. When I walked up the sidewalk I was kinda shocked to see the sign. I thought after the picnic you folks had here inWarren that things would have changed a bit, I guessI was wrong.I had a conversation with one of the officers that patrol my neighborhood a lil while back and for some reason it turned to OC and he made it clear in no certain words that he didnt like OC legal or not.
 

johnniebravo

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May 9, 2009
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Warren Michigan, ,
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I agree that we are out to make friends but I want to make sure when I do it that I do it the right way and not hurt our cause, so im kinda careful when it comes LE contact. When I walked up the sidewalk I was kinda shocked to see the sign. I thought after the picnic you folks had here inWarren that things would have changed a bit, I guessI was wrong.I had a conversation with one of the officers that patrol my neighborhood a lil while back and for some reason it turned to OC and he made it clear in no certain words that he didnt like OC legal or not.
 

CoonDog

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May 5, 2009
Messages
532
Location
Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA
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Johnniebravo,

Look here for ordinances pertaining to keyword "Firearm" for the City of Warren:

http://www.municode.com/RESOURCES/code_list.asp?stateID=22


I have found that Warren has some really old codes and have not been updated since the 1990 Preemption act or with MI's concealed-carry laws. Somehow, carrying a firearm for protection is an "Offense Against Public Safety".

Sec. 22-165. Carrying loaded firearm. It shall be unlawful for any person, except police officers or any person duly licensed by law, to carry any loaded firearm within the city. (Code 1967, § 8-209(4))

Sec. 22-166. Carrying concealed weapon. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a police officer to carry a firearm thirty (30) inches or less in length on his or her person, concealed or otherwise, in the public streets, the alleys, public shopping centers or places of business frequented by the public, public parks, public school property, property of the Macomb County Community College, locations of religious worship open to the public, or any other public place in the city, unless the bearer possesses a duly authorized unexpired state license to carry a concealed weapon. (Code 1967, § 8-209(7))

Sec. 22-167. Carrying firearm over 30 inches. (a)It shall be unlawful for any person other than a police officer to carry a firearm commonly referred to as a longarm (rifle, shotgun or firearm over thirty (30) inches overall length) on the public streets, alleys, public shopping centers or places of business, public parks, public school property, property of the Macomb County Community College, locations of religious worship open to the public, or any other public place within the city, whether cased or uncased, except under the provisions of this section. (b)Unloaded longarms may be transported from a place of purchase to the residence of the purchaser if enclosed in a carton, container, closed gun case, or wrapped completely in commercial wrapping paper securely closed by tape or string, while being so transported. (c)Unloaded longarms may be transported by motor vehicle to and from hunting and firearms practice or target shooting, but must be fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case or carried in the trunk of the vehicle. (d)Unloaded longarms may be carried by persons seventeen (17) years and older, on foot, to and from a regulated gun range, when the firearm is fully enclosed in a closed carton, container or gun case. Persons so involved shall proceed to and from the gun range without delay by avoiding loitering on the public streets and all other public places within the city. (Code 1967, § 8-209(8))

Sec. 22-168. Dangerous weapons. (a)No person shall possess on their person, on a bicycle, on a motorcycle or motor bike, or in the passenger compartment of any vehicle, any machine gun, sawed-off shotgun, sling shot, sand club, sand bag, switch-blade knife, stiletto, dagger, dirk, razor, knife having a blade over three (3) inches in length, metal knuckles, martial arts weapon, gun, handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, BB gun, pellet gun, air gun, imitation pistol, or any dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, or any instrument attached to or designed to be attached to any firearm for the purpose of silencing, lessening, or muffling the noise of the firing of any firearm; except as otherwise permitted by law. A person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to the city such weapon or instrument. (b)No person under the age of eighteen (18) shall possess a blow gun or a crossbow. (c)No person shall sell blow guns or crossbows to any one under the age of eighteen (18). (d)Sections (b) and (c) shall not prohibit the possession of or sale of a crossbow to physically disabled persons twelve (12) years or older when said possession and/or purchase is pursuant to a permit granted by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, and such person is in possession of said permit. (Code 1967, § 8-210; Ord. No. 80-452, § 1, 4-12-94; Ord. No. 80-502, § 1, 10-22-96)

Warren desperately needs MOC's help!
 

Michigander

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Aug 24, 2007
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4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
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johnniebravo wrote:
I had one the other day at the park, i wasnt sure what to expect if a 911 call went out about me .

ALWAYS carry a recorder, if not 2 or 3. Start it up if you have the slightest hint that you will be encountering police. When in a situation where the risk of police contact seems high, I keep my primary recorder in hand so I don't get shot reaching for it. That way, even if I get ordered to raise my hands to the air, I can still get it going.

I also like carrying a camera, pen and paper, and a cell phone to call 911 and ask for the help of the MSP and the OCSD if it becomes necessary.
 

ghostrider

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Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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Michigander wrote:
Given their heavy handed nature I've seen in the past, and given their hugely unnecessary response to the gigantic picnic last year, including the one needless stop and ID of the guy walking by himself home from it, I would be very careful about trying to make friends. They have done lots to prove they can't be trusted by open carriers, and nothing to prove they can be.

In regards to contacting them, I'd say it would still be a good idea. Lingering problems can only be solved with communication. I'd just do it by sending a polite but firm letter to the chief, explaining that you are worried that that officer, and maybe others are misinformed of open carrying legalities, and the fact that a 911 call is not probable cause to stop someone for legally open carrying.
Yes, I'd recommend great caution in contacting police under these circumstances (based on last years picnic, I'd say any circumstances re. the Warren Police). You most certainly should volunteer any info like, "yeah, I'm probably the one you were called about." Best thing to do would be to casually greet them as your walking by, and ask what's going on. If they ask if your the one with the gun, just respond by saying something along the line of, "it's legal"(matter of factly, as if it matters little if you were the one carrying). Is it unfair of me to have an attitude like this toward the Warren PD, I don't think so given in mind what happened last year, and they higher ups response.

Ordinarily I'd say give them the benefit of the doubt that they might have been investigating by just driving by, but Warren PD has earned a great amount of not only distrust, but lack of respect for the way they behaved last year (that drive by still leaves me disgusted. With people like that on the force, we're better off with the gangbangers down the block).
 

cabman1

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Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Messages
985
Location
Jackson , Michigan, USA
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It has come to my attention that you have an ordinance that bans firearms from commission buildings. This ordinance is unlawful

and unenforceable due to MCL 123.1102. The offending ordinance is below.









No person or organization



(3) Carry or use any firearm of any description, air rifles or slingshots or discharge

any fireworks or explosive devices of any nature.

(4) Erect any structure.

(5) Canvass, advertise, solicit, vend or rent any service, merchandise or object of

any kind.

(6) Hold or participate in any public function other than those conducted by the city.

(7) For any gatherings in excess of 500 people, chapter 42 of this Code shall apply.

(Code 1965, Sec. 8.07; Ord. No. 747, Sec. 1, 11-28-91)


Sec. 18-34. Enumeration of forbidden acts.
Within the cemetery, no person shall loiter, litter, use profane language, bring in or

consume any alcoholic beverage or controlled substance, peddle or solicit the sale of any

commodity unconnected to cemetery usage, place signs or notices, possess firearms unless the

person is a duly authorized law enforcement officer or a duly authorized military escort for a

veteran's funeral or memorial service, allow animals to run at large or otherwise beyond his

control, or engage in any play or recreational activity.

(Ord. No. 772, Sec. 12.08(c), 12-21-92)










As you may or may not know, in 1990 the State of Michigan passed MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit

of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any

other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms,

ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law

or a law of this state.

In MCRGO v. Ferndale, the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon

firearms possession.

THE MICHIGAN APPEALS COURT CONCLUDED April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237

In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting

and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any

ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which

were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local

regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and,

consequently, we reverse.

Please alter this ordinance and any others you may have the ban firearms from government properties, so that it/they comply

with state law. Failure to do so is a violation of MCL 123.1102 and is subject to legal actions including civil litigation, as was filed

upon the City of Ferndale in 2003.

Please respond to my request within 10 business days. You may respond via by email at my personal email address of

gcannon@miopencarry.org . I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

Respectfully, G. Cannon
gcannon@miopencarry.org
 

FatboyCykes

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
942
Location
Warren, Michigan, USA
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Arrogant is the word that comes to mind concerning Warren PD, oh and stupidity, not ignorance, I don't want to insult the ignorant. I've spoken with several officers and one "supervisor" Sgt. Lou Busch, who unequivocally stated that if I OC in "his town" then I can expect a visit from a PO. When offered the LEO packet, he stated that he didn't want it, what he wanted was an AGO, when I told him there were several in the packet he took it, somewhat unwillingly. They have no intentions of cooperating willingly. It's disgusting.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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Warren PD knows what the law is and that the parks ordinance is unenforceable. If it was they would have arrested about 75 people last year.

If they should enforce it now, you would have a suit as they are abritary and caprices in their enforcement. Generaldet is our SE coordinator PM him and see if he will send an update including the LEAF article.
 

Generaldet

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,073
Location
President, CLSD, Inc., Oxford, Michigan, USA
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LEAF attachment was also included.







Dear Warren City Council members and Warren police department,

It has come to my attention that your public parks have signs stating “No firearms”.[/b]

Under the 1990 state preemption law (MCL 123.1102, outlined in brief below), this ordinance is unenforceable in regard to firearm possession. Furthermore, the existence of these signs, being in conflict with the law of the State of Michigan, is misleading to the people of Warren and other citizens who may visit the City.

I am requesting these signs be either updated or removed within 90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Failure to amend this ordinance could be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the public of what is and is not allowed in the parks.


I have also attached a copy of the Law Enforcement Action Forum Newsletter issued by the Michigan Municipal League on lawful open carry. I look forward to your resolution and response when these signs are amended.

Thank you,


Michigan Legislature FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
Act 319 of 1990
123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2.
A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3uzohtmics2b4u45avhaptfn))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-123-1102
 
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