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Thread: Stop and Identify laws

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    In compiling a list of laws for some upcoming road trips, I've noticed something about a vast majority of S&I laws in those states which have them.

    Of the 20-some-odd states I'll be passing through about 60-70% had S&I laws, and about 80% of THOSE laws were written in such a way as to include the requirements of a 'Terry' stop. (I think there were 2 that did not...maybe 3)

    Specifically, the officer MUST suspect that the subject of the stop "Has committed, is committing, or is about to commit" a crime/infraction/violation/whatever term that state uses in order to invoke the requirement to identify oneself.

    This means that if the officer does NOT have RAS for the stop, then it is NOT a crime/offence/whatever to refuse to identify yourself.

    It would be adnvantagous to research your home state and determine just WHEN you truly are required to provide ID.

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    ...Specifically, the officer MUST suspect that the subject of the stop "Has committed, is committing, or is about to commit" a crime/infraction/violation/whatever term that state uses in order to invoke the requirement to identify oneself.

    This means that if the officer does NOT have RAS for the stop, then it is NOT a crime/offence/whatever to refuse to identify yourself.

    It would be adnvantagous to research your home state and determine just WHEN you truly are required to provide ID.
    That's true - but the rub is that the officer is under no legal obligation to tell you the truth - he can tell you any story he likes.Then what are you gonna do?? (ire not directed at you)

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    Learn to say and spell your name to include your B-day and addressin a few different dialects.
    Nothing states you have to say it in English.
    Now you have complied with the law.


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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Be careful in your assumptions about stop and identify laws. In Virginia the legislature has not enacted a stop and identify law, but many cities have. Therefore if you made the assumption that you did not have to identify yourself in Virginia, you would be arrested in some juristictions.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    In compiling a list of laws for some upcoming road trips, I've noticed something about a vast majority of S&I laws in those states which have them.

    Of the 20-some-odd states I'll be passing through about 60-70% had S&I laws, and about 80% of THOSE laws were written in such a way as to include the requirements of a 'Terry' stop. (I think there were 2 that did not...maybe 3)

    Specifically, the officer MUST suspect that the subject of the stop "Has committed, is committing, or is about to commit" a crime/infraction/violation/whatever term that state uses in order to invoke the requirement to identify oneself.

    This means that if the officer does NOT have RAS for the stop, then it is NOT a crime/offence/whatever to refuse to identify yourself.

    It would be adnvantagous to research your home state and determine just WHEN you truly are required to provide ID.
    Good that you noticed, Phsstpok. You just want to carry the thinking further.

    The reason the statutes mention RAS is because of the SCOTUS decision Hiibel vs 6th Judicial District Court.1

    The problem is that the citizen can almost never know for sure whether the LEO has genuine RAS. Meaning he can almost never know for sure whether he can safely refuse to identify himself without being convicted. And remember, not being convicted does not exclude being charged and having the legal expense of fighting the charge.

    The most important thing to understand is that it is the courts who make the decision on whether RAS existed. After the fact. At the suppression hearing before your trial, in deciding whether to applythe exclusionary rule. Meaning, after you have been charged with refusing to identify yourself as required by the statute.

    The cop could give you a false reason for the stop. He could give you only half the story.

    But lets say he gives you the whole story. Now you have to try to decide whether a court has ever ruled those circumstancesinsufficient to provide RAS. You also have to try to decide how the court might rule on your case. And, you have to do this evaluating based on your incomplete knowledge of the types of circumstances the courts have found give RAS. All the while trying to figure out how to apply these other little clauses: that the officer is "entitled todraw reasonable inferences" from the facts in front of him; and "based on his experience as a police officer."

    After a lot of thought, and a lot of reading, I plan to comply with a request for name and address and so forth--comply while refusing consent. If it turns out later, after I get theFOIA materials, thathe did not have RAS, I'll file a formal complaint or, if a bad situation that included other violations, a lawsuit.

    1. A state law requiring a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a valid Terry stop is consistent with Fourth Amendment prohibitions against unreasonable searches and seizures. Hiibel. Section III, paragraph 7.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Wikipedia has a few things to say about Stop and Identify Laws. Are you going to add your findings to theirs when you are done, and... .are you going to tell US the results as well?


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    Forgive my ignorance.........S&I Laws....WTF?

    Terry stop....WTF?

    RAS....WTF?

    That is, what are you talking about? Please define what you are saying, do not assume that we all know your jargon. Thanks.

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    longshot wrote:
    Forgive my ignorance.........S&I Laws....WTF?

    Terry stop....WTF?

    RAS....WTF?

    That is, what are you talking about? Please define what you are saying, do not assume that we all know your jargon. Thanks.
    I abbreviated S&I because I figured people would be able to figure that out by the title of the thread....Stop and Identify Laws.

    Terry refers to the SCOTUS (Supreme Court Of The United States) ruling in Terry v Ohio which held that an officer detaining someone without "Reasonable Articulable Suspicion" (RAS) that the person "has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime' is 'unreasonable' and a violation of the Fourth Amendment.



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    longshot wrote:
    Forgive my ignorance.........S&I Laws....WTF?

    Terry stop....WTF?

    RAS....WTF?

    That is, what are you talking about? Please define what you are saying, do not assume that we all know your jargon. Thanks.
    It is a good idea to spell out terms then ID acronyms - like WTF for example. Just kidding.

    But when a case name is used, like Terry, that is excusable - especially somthing as well known as Terry - and a little due diligence googling will catch you up.

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    Thundar wrote:
    Be careful in your assumptions about stop and identify laws. In Virginia the legislature has not enacted a stop and identify law, but many cities have. Therefore if you made the assumption that you did not have to identify yourself in Virginia, you would be arrested in some juristictions.
    Is this correct? I thought there was no requirement anywhere in the state to present an ID when asked by an LEO unless he had RAS. What happens if you are just taking a walk through town without any ID and an LEO stops you with S&I in mind?

    Are you certain about this?


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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Of the 20-some-odd states I'll be passing through about 60-70% had S&I laws, and about 80% of THOSE laws were written in such a way as to include the requirements of a 'Terry' stop.

    Utah law is set up this way, if anybody cares. :P There is no requirement to produce an identifying document, just a name and address.

    77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
    A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Utah law is set up this way, if anybody cares. There is no requirement to produce an identifying document, just a name and address.
    One of the reasons the various state stop-and-identify statutes omit requiring an identifying document is the US Supreme Court opinion, Kolender vs Lawson.

    The short version is that the court held that a statute requiring a person to provide credible and reliable identification that carries a reasonable assurance of its authenticity was unconstitutionally vague.There is more to it, soif you can make time, I recommend reading theopinion at the link below. This is one facet of why a police officer has no authority to demandan identification document from you during aTerry Stop.*

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/461/352/case.html



    *If you are being cited for a misdemeanor, you might reconsider refusing to provide an ID document. Police have reported on this forum that they will arrest, instead of cite, anyone who refuses to give ID for the upper classes of misdemeanors. The idea being that the refuse-er is possibly giving a false name so he canskip the court date. Part of the picture being that a false name given verbally means any warrant the judge issues over the failure to appear in courtis in the wrong name.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    Ca doesnt have this law either, yet my how town countie mounties seem to think that I do and continually pull my info off my firearm

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    Fallschirmjäger wrote:
    SNIP Wikipedia has a few things to say about Stop and Identify Laws.
    Iscanned through the wiki article. I recommend it.

    It seems well written and has cites. It checks with my understanding.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Be careful in your assumptions about stop and identify laws. In Virginia the legislature has not enacted a stop and identify law, but many cities have. Therefore if you made the assumption that you did not have to identify yourself in Virginia, you would be arrested in some juristictions.
    Is this correct? I thought there was no requirement anywhere in the state to present an ID when asked by an LEO unless he had RAS. What happens if you are just taking a walk through town without any ID and an LEO stops you with S&I in mind?

    Are you certain about this?

    Identify yourself = State name or state name and address. I know of no local law in VA that requires one to produce an identification card.

    You can see if your locality has a stop and identify law.

    Go to municode.com online library

    Link: http://www.municode.com/Resources/OnlineLibrary.asp

    Click on your state

    Click on your county, city or town

    use the search function at the top of the page.

    Here is what I found in a few minutes using identify:

    Chesapeake:

    Sec. 46-209. Providing identification to law enforcement officers.


    It shall be unlawful and a class 1 misdemeanor for any person to refuse to identify himself by name at the request of a law enforcement officer, or to provide false information in response to such request, if the surrounding circumstances are such that the officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. This ordinance shall take effect immediately upon its adoption.

    Norfolk:

    Sec. 29-73.1. Suspects to identify themselves.

    (a)Any law enforcement officer may detain any person whom the officer encounters under circumstances creating a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime, and require the person to identify himself. Any person so detained shall identify himself by giving his full legal name, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any law enforcement officer.

    (b)A person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor.

    Virginia Beach:

    Sec. 23-7.1. Providing identification to police officer.

    It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.



    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Thundar wrote:
    SNIP Here is what I found in a few minutes using identify:
    This is why I plan on handing over my ID when a cop demands to see it. We all know cops demand ID documents.

    1. He's gonna get my name during the encounter anyway.

    2. He's gonna learn my name anywaywhen the formal complaint lands.

    3. Since he has no authority to demand an ID document during a Terry Stop, assuming he's even got that right, at a minimum I've got grounds for a formal complaint just on the ID document demand.

    4. Nobody can complain at you for "cooperating" with the police.

    5. I can't memorize which jurisdictions have stop-and-identify ordinances, and which don't. Why bother? The cops are handing us ammunition by demanding to see an ID document. Use it to shoot back. Figuratively speaking.



    By the way, Thundar,thanks for the cites. I had heard one of those cities had a stop-and-identify ordinance. Now I know.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:


    By the way, Thundar,thanks for the cites. I had heard one of those cities had a stop-and-identify ordinance. Now I know.




    Arlington has an S&I code as well: 17-13 (c)

    http://www.arlingtonva.us/Department...Provisions.pdf

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    levernut wrote:
    Citizen wrote:

    By the way, Thundar,thanks for the cites. I had heard one of those cities had a stop-and-identify ordinance. Now I know.


    Arlington has an S&I code as well: 17-13 (c)

    http://www.arlingtonva.us/Department...Provisions.pdf
    Getting close to home. I couldn't find anything for Fairfax County.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Mike wrote:
    longshot wrote:
    Forgive my ignorance.........S&I Laws....WTF?

    Terry stop....WTF?

    RAS....WTF?

    That is, what are you talking about? Please define what you are saying, do not assume that we all know your jargon. Thanks.
    It is a good idea to spell out terms then ID acronyms - like WTF for example. Just kidding.

    But when a case name is used, like Terry, that is excusable - especially somthing as well known as Terry - and a little due diligence googling will catch you up.
    Mike, back from vacation. Thanks for your comments. However.I do believe that it is up to a speaker or writer to communicate as clearly as possible without the listener/reader having to practice "due diligence" research, especially when one is just reading a post . While you say TERRY is well known, I'd never heard of it before....as I said originally ...excuse my ignorance.

    Regarding WTF, I was just being a wise*^#. WTF, LOL, and IMHO are often used on this site. "TERRY"........?

    Regarding "Google" I understand that 95% of its corporate political donations go to the Democrats. As an Indedendent I find that troubling as the Dems tend to have a lot of gun control NUTS in the ranks and we are pro 2nd Amendment here. I for one refuse to "Google" for that reason..........just call me a Yahoo.

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    levernut wrote:
    Arlington has an S&I code as well: 17-13 (c)

    http://www.arlingtonva.us/Department...Provisions.pdf
    "identify himself by name and address at the request of a ... police officer"

    How does this require handing over a piece of paper?

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    Here in NC can can get your record using name and DOB.

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