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Obamacare will hurt military families, not just gun owners

thx997303

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Government run anything is not the answer.

Little story, was on a detail with the supply guy for our battalion, and we go up to the air force base where they normally get supplies, which is a good 30 miles away from battalion.

We walk in, and I immediately notice the prices are through the roof.

Find the items we need, and go to check out, and it takes literally an hour to do. We were only getting less than a pickup full of supplies.

Well, turns out everyone working in this shop is blind, excluding the manager.

So, after inquiring about this, the supply guy explains to me how the government mandates they procure their supplies.

They give them an "approved vendor" list, which are the only places they can buy supplies.

The only vendors on that list are veteran owned, or charity type like this one.

Problem is, since the local units can only buy from an approved list, they get tons of business. And the business is government mandated.

So, they raise their prices, and the army blindly pays 40 dollars for a simple shovel, the kind I buy at wal maret for 10 or less.

And on the healthcare note, socialist healthcare sucks monkey balls.

We have it in the military.

To get seen for something, I wake up at 0400 and go wait in line a minimum of 4 hours, with probably 200 others who are supposedly sick, or injured. (Bull, most of them go there to get out of pt)

I finally get to a doctor, who will only look at one condition. And they almost never go beyond me telling them what my symptoms are.

Then they give me an otc fix, I leave do what they tell me, and come back and repeat the process in a day or two because it isn't getting better, because they were in a hurry and didn't properly diagnose my problem.

So the second time usually ends up in ,e getting sent to the army hospital nearby, usually 2 weeks later because they are always booked up.

Then I might get proper care.

Everyone goes in if they even have a small cough, and overall it just sucks.

Just my .02
 

Brass Magnet

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AWDstylez wrote:



Once again you've proven that you don't know how to debate ethically, stuck inbait n' switcharguments, and won't touch on any of the points that you'll lose with a ten foot pole. It's completely worthless to even acknowledge your existence.

For example:

I said the current system needs to be renovated, not ran by the goverment. I never said the current system was perfect. This is what all I posted was based upon.The exception to this iswhen I was obviously wasting my time answering your hypothetical questions. The first rule of debate is to agree on what is being debated.

I also talked about "group buying" insurance which you never addressed; most likelybecause your argument would fail on a number of levels.

For more examples you posted this:

Brass Magnet wrote:
Everyone in the insurance busines won't charge $XXXXX, if they could get away with that they'd be doing it now.
AWDstylez wrote:
But they do, and they are. It's like you trying to argue that if each OPEC country had it's own brand gas station, suddenly prices would go down. :lol::quirky
Not only extremely rude; you also convieniently left out this:
Contrary to your implied belief they aren't. Quantity ofcustomers is more important for profit than only having a few that pay more. just look at Wal-Mart. Themore customers they have the further the insurance companies risks are spread out as well.
Why leave it out? Because you don't follow the rules toa proper debate.

Oh, then you decided that your example of a gas station is relavant just because you say it is:

Brass Magnet wrote:
Thisseriouslyhypothetical and irrelevant to the medical debatebutI'll go ahead anyway. PeopleCAN stop buying gas. There are alternatives, it's not inelastic.
AWDstylez wrote:
But it is. Gas is about as inelastic as you get short of food and water. Did you forget that petroleum fuel consumption goes far beyond "people?" Prices go up, Exxon profits go through the roof. Guess how much gas consumption goes down? Oh wait... it doesn't.
Hey look, you say it is, without any proof, once again. But it's not. (not only because I say it's not)If we really can't afford it you can be darn sure we will find an alternative source or in my case, just go hunting, fishing, and grow my own food. How can you even try to defend this totally irrelevantargument?

Let's relate it to health care: You have a nail in your foot and will die of infection but a doctor costs too much money. Hmmmm, I guessyou just die huh?If you want to go ahead,I'llpull it out and douse the wound with alcohol.

Oh darn, I just bothered to feed you again.:banghead:



Anyhoo, what's next on the AWDstylez buffet of delusion? Oh yes, personal attacks.

AWDstylez wrote:

Again, the ignorance is ASTOUNDING. We ALREADY subsidize ALL KINDS of scientific research, medical included. Let me ask you a better question. What motive do drug companies have to cure diseases instead of simply keeping people alive, whilesellingthem lots of maintainancemedication? I'll leave you with this (post from another board)....
Really? I had no idea that we subsidized ALL KINDS of scientific research:quirky. So, you want to subsidize even more?

Your debates are not worth the pixels they are displayed with, nor the wasted packets of bandwidth used to convey them. I tried to have a civil debate with you and once again you've proven that you are incapable.

It's too bad this forum doesn't have an "ignore user" function. If it did, you'd be talking to yourself and maybe one other guy.
 

N00blet45

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thx997303 wro
And on the healthcare note, socialist healthcare sucks monkey balls.

We have it in the military.

To get seen for something, I wake up at 0400 and go wait in line a minimum of 4 hours, with probably 200 others who are supposedly sick, or injured. (Bull, most of them go there to get out of pt)

I finally get to a doctor, who will only look at one condition. And they almost never go beyond me telling them what my symptoms are.

Then they give me an otc fix, I leave do what they tell me, and come back and repeat the process in a day or two because it isn't getting better, because they were in a hurry and didn't properly diagnose my problem.

So the second time usually ends up in ,e getting sent to the army hospital nearby, usually 2 weeks later because they are always booked up.

Then I might get proper care.

Everyone goes in if they even have a small cough, and overall it just sucks.

Just my .02
That's why I never went to sick call. All they'd do is give you some Air Force candy (Motrin).

I was stationed at Buckley AFB, CO. We had pretty good health care, but they contracted all the major services out to local practice because the base was recently bought and didn't have a hospital.
 

AWDstylez

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Brass Magnet wrote:

For example:

I said the current system needs to be renovated, not ran by the goverment. I never said the current system was perfect.



This is not an argument, it's an observation - a blatantly obvious one, at that. I don't have to address observations. When you come up with your version of ahealth care solution for this country, then you've got an argument that we can debate. Until then, you're just whining without contributing anything.
 

AWDstylez

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Brass Magnet wrote:
Not only extremely rude; you also convieniently left out this:
Contrary to your implied belief they aren't. Quantity ofcustomers is more important for profit than only having a few that pay more. just look at Wal-Mart. Themore customers they have the further the insurance companies risks are spread out as well.
Why leave it out? Because you don't follow the rules toa proper debate.


Why leave it out? Because it's a obvious lie. If this was true then our current system would be working fine. Oligarcihes don't function like perfect competition does, neither do products or services with inelastic demand. There IS NOT real, true competition in health insurance. EVERYONE is a rip off.

Just because you make a off-the-wall, competely incorrect"point," with nothing to back it, doesn't mean I have to address it as valid.
 

AWDstylez

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Brass Magnet wrote:
Hey look, you say it is, without any proof, once again. But it's not. (not only because I say it's not)If we really can't afford it you can be darn sure we will find an alternative source or in my case, just go hunting, fishing, and grow my own food. How can you even try to defend this totally irrelevantargument?


But, see, that's just the problem. The threashold for people to stop purchasing gas is high. Why? Because the demand is inelastic. People stop purchasing gas (oil)when it becomes fiscally impossible for them to do so. When people stop purchasing gas, life begins to fall apart. They can't get to work, airplanes can't fly, they can't heat their houses, mail can't be delivered, the entire country's infrastructure collapses.

This is just like health care. The threashold for people to stop purchasing health care is firmly at the point that it becomes fiscally impossible for them to do so. The demand is inelastic. That doesn't mean you can squeeze blood from a stone, but as long as people are physically able to pay, they will. What happens when they can't pay? Much like gas, life starts falling apart. Rountine check up, $150... I think I'll skip it. Dental cleaning, $200... I think I'll skip it. Damn this tooth ache... I'll just ride it out, dentist is too expensive. @#$%, just broke my arm... x-rays, surgery, pins, follow-up visits, pin removal.... $70,000... that I can't skip... I'll put it on the credit card. Damn it, now my teeth are half rotted outand are killing me, I've got toxic blood due to a raging infection, and the ceditors are ringing my phone off the hook 24/7...guess it's time to file bankruptcy, go on welfare, medicare... oh @#$%... looks like you ended up paying for me anyway.

By providing people with REAL health insurance (medicare still doesn't cover preventative care), you can head off a lot of these bigger, more expensive problems that the tax payers are going to be covering ANYWAY when people go broke.
 

AWDstylez

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Brass Magnet wrote:
Really? I had no idea that we subsidized ALL KINDS of scientific research:quirky.



I'm well aware of that. You're a typcial, grossly mis and un-informed person arguing based on Faux News talking points.

Maybe this will help you out...

This is discretionary spending, which is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the national budget (as you'll see below). I would LOVE to see more of my money go to research and useful things. We can start by cutting that disgustingly massive defense spending by about 80%.

090209-US-budget-1.jpg




This is the actual budget.

Fy2009spendingbycategory2.png




This is the budget of JUST the national science foundation, this doesn't include grants and subsidies given directly to independant researchers...

Obama+Science+Budget.jpg




Do your own research if you want more, you need it.



So while research funding is not a large percentage of the budget, a few percent of $3.6 TRILLION is still A LOT of money.
 

AWDstylez

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Brass Magnet wrote:
Your debates are not worth the pixels they are displayed with, nor the wasted packets of bandwidth used to convey them. I tried to have a civil debate with you and once again you've proven that you are incapable.


While you're busy talking about ignoring points. Why don't you go back and address some of mine, particularly the one you totally ignored...

What motive do drug companies have to cure diseases instead of simply keeping people alive, whilesellingthem lots of maintainancemedication? I'll leave you with this (post from another board)....


Think about the basic concept of capitalism with regard to pharmacutical companies. Now let's focus on economies of scale. For those who don't understand this term a brief explanation...When you make something new, it doesn't materialize out of thin air. There are development costs, research costs, production costs, et al. Everyone of these people must be paid for their work and the way pricing points are constructed is by determining total cost of development, manufacture and delivery. ALL OF IT!So just as with automobiles, the more you can make and sell, the better the pricing offered to the consumer while maintaining profit margin.Now, think about a pill that cures versus a pill that treats. The cure would be expensive simply because there is no repeat customers, hopefully. The pharmacutical companies would have to charge an outrageous price to recoup their investment and maintain a profit margin they deemed appropriate. As where a cure could AND would be massed produced to keep the customer alive long enough to buy another dose.If you can't see the inequity of such a scheme then I am not going to be able to suade you. That's not a liberal or conservative point of you. That is a realists point of view. no spin, just the way it works.





This is why most research for CURES is funded by the government and charitable giving. There is NO motivation for the private market to create cures.




Also, address this one for me... many states ALREADY HAVE public health care options.AND THEY WORK. I happen to be on one. The coverage is absolutely outstanding, the deductable is$150,and the premiums are <1/4 of what I was quoted on private policies with $5,000+ deductables. Tell me again what's so bad about public health care options?
 

Brass Magnet

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AWDstylez wrote:
Brass Magnet wrote:

For example:

I said the current system needs to be renovated, not ran by the goverment. I never said the current system was perfect.


This is not an argument, it's an observation - a blatantly obvious one, at that. I don't have to address observations. When you come up with your version of ahealth care solution for this country, then you've got an argument that we can debate.
Yes, you totally ignored my actual argument. Typical for youand pretty bad for someone who accuses others of having the reading comprehension of a 3 year old. I see that you keep posting and putting more of my quotes so it looks like you actually are right so for those that missed it, here is the actual argument from my very first post.

Brass Magnet wrote:
I work for a living and my employer pays for part of my insurance. Because the company has around 400 people the coverage is not extremely expensive. We don't need a huge goverment program that will never work to run everything we just need to be able to band together and "group buy" our health insurance. If regulations would allow multiple business' to band together to lower insurance premiums we wouldn't have a problem and everything would still be privately run. Premiums would go down even further when the insurers have to start competing to survive. Heck, they'd be out actively recruiting businesses to get on their bandwagons.
[snip]
I think this whole heathcare business could be solved with a few small regulations.
Then I proceded to give several resons for why I thought it would work in my next posts.

I followed the rules.
AWDstylez wrote:

Brass Magnet wrote:
Really? I had no idea that we subsidized ALL KINDS of scientific research:quirky.


I'm well aware of that. You're a typcial, grossly mis and un-informed person arguing based on Faux News talking points.

Maybe this will help you out...
Did I really need to throw in sarcasm tags to clarify that statmement? The point was that I KNOW THAT. Typical you, assuming that you know more than everyone else about every subject.

AWDstylez wrote:
While you're busy talking about ignoring points. Why don't you go back and address some of mine, particularly the one you totally ignored...

What motive do drug companies have to cure diseases instead of simply keeping people alive, whilesellingthem lots of maintainancemedication? I'll leave you with this (post from another board)....
In my very first reply to you I addressed almost every part of what you said. None of this was relevant to my first post. You jumped on it just so you could start an argument. Typical you again.

In any case, since you already weren't following the rules there was no point in addressing any more of your irrelevant arguments.

This is the same tactic you use every single time.

Like I said, your not worth even acknowledging until you grow up.

zai jian sa bi.
 

AWDstylez

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Brass Magnet wrote:
In any case, since you already weren't following the rules there was no point in addressing any more of your irrelevant arguments.

This is the same tactic you use every single time.

Like I said, your not worth even acknowledging until you grow up.

zai jian sa bi.



Ok, no use arguing with an idiot. Tell you what. When your broke ass (which I know you are, because you aren't informed enough to be much of anything) qualifies for the public plan, a subsidy, free money, whatever... send it back, don't take it. If you ever lose your job and can't afford care, stay off thepublic plan. Ifyour kids are every more fortunate than you and able to go to college, don't take anyPell Grants, no state assistance, no subsidized loans, nothing. Don't be one of the "leeches" of society. Put your actions where your big, uneducated mouth is.
 

Brass Magnet

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AWDstylez wrote:
Ok, no use arguing with an idiot. Tell you what. When you're broke ass (which I know you are, because you aren't informed enough to be much of anything) qualifies for the public plan, a subsidy, free money, whatever... send it back, don't take it. Put your actions where your big, uneducated mouth is.


Hey look! Something we agree on!

Thanks for more personal attacks, proving that you need to grow up.

BTW, I won't be broke unless you and your fearless leader getyour way.

/ignore AWDstylez function on
 

sudden valley gunner

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I Hate it when "educated" elitist hijack these threads. Medicine started out and evolved as a business it has given us all the benefits we have today, because of striving for a profit

I for one don't want to give more power and private information to the out of control beast our government is becoming. It is not our government responsibility to provide for it's citizens.
 

PrayingForWar

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
I Hate it when "educated" elitist hijack these threads. Medicine started out and evolved as a business it has given us all the benefits we have today, because of striving for a profit

I for one don't want to give more power and private information to the out of control beast our government is becoming. It is not our government responsibility to provide for it's citizens.


I agree %100. These obozo cheerleaders seem to be programmed to regurgitate talking points over and over completely ignoring the fact that most people DON'T WANT the government involved in their lives any further.



I have rarely ever had a positive experience dealing with any gov't "service". Be it the post office, DMV, schools, what ever. Gov't is clogged with incompetent, lazy and down right corrupt nitwits who can not make a living in the private sector. Gov't can barely keep the roads maintained, even the military is a political mess right now. These obamabots "think" gov't can make healthcare CHEAPER or even enhance anything related to it?

Yeah, right. In small doses, some bureaucrats haveoccasionally proved to be competent, and productive. However, on such a massive scale as the nations medical needs, it's inconceivable that any efficiency or savings will be achieved. For every one bureaucrat who actually produces something tangible, there are 10 who thwart the productivity of others. Either through regulating or interfering with the private sector, or maliciously thwarting efforts of other bureaucrats in order to secure their own jobs or get themselves promoted. I've even seen some do it out of spite for petty political differences.

Obozo and his mindless minions can keep the change.
 

Alexcabbie

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Well, everyone can probably relax because this Obamacare boondoggle is circling the bowl along with the "cap and trade" nonsense. This isnt gettin any kind of vote until after the August recess, during which all these reps and Senators will get a real earful from their constituents. Obama himself helped shoot it down by getting sidetracked by a crack he made about the arrest of Professor Whatzizname, incidentally exposing himself as a dumbass (QUOTE: "I don't have all the facts, but...the Cambridge police acted stupidly")

My cab driving beat is of course the liberal-scmiberal City of Alexandria, and out of the 100+ people I have hauled in the past week only ONE thought Obamacare was a good idea. And she skipped out on the fare, which (given her belief in entitlement to freebies) did not surprise me.
 

AWDstylez

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Show of hands... how many people in this thread have read even a paragraph from the health care bill?



Second show of hands... how many people in this thread can give me a basic run down, entirely in their own words,of how this proposed system is going to work?



Read? Go!
 

AWDstylez

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
I Hate it when "educated" elitist hijack these threads. Medicine started out and evolved as a business it has given us all the benefits we have today, because of striving for a profit



Prove it. Show some evidence.



sudden valley gunner wrote:
I for one don't want to give more power and private information to the out of control beast our government is becoming. It is not our government responsibility to provide for it's citizens.



Unbolded part: Don't take the public plan, plain and simple. What part of OPTION do you not understand?

Bolded part: HAHAHAHAHAHHHHHAHAHA
 

AWDstylez

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PrayingForWar wrote:
sudden valley gunner wrote:
I Hate it when "educated" elitist hijack these threads. Medicine started out and evolved as a business it has given us all the benefits we have today, because of striving for a profit

I for one don't want to give more power and private information to the out of control beast our government is becoming. It is not our government responsibility to provide for it's citizens.


I agree %100. These obozo cheerleaders seem to be programmed to regurgitate talking points over and over completely ignoring the fact that most people DON'T WANT the government involved in their lives any further.



I have rarely ever had a positive experience dealing with any gov't "service". Be it the post office, DMV, schools, what ever. Gov't is clogged with incompetent, lazy and down right corrupt nitwits who can not make a living in the private sector. Gov't can barely keep the roads maintained, even the military is a political mess right now. These obamabots "think" gov't can make healthcare CHEAPER or even enhance anything related to it?

Yeah, right. In small doses, some bureaucrats haveoccasionally proved to be competent, and productive. However, on such a massive scale as the nations medical needs, it's inconceivable that any efficiency or savings will be achieved. For every one bureaucrat who actually produces something tangible, there are 10 who thwart the productivity of others. Either through regulating or interfering with the private sector, or maliciously thwarting efforts of other bureaucrats in order to secure their own jobs or get themselves promoted. I've even seen some do it out of spite for petty political differences.

Obozo and his mindless minions can keep the change.


What does any of that have to do with health care?
 

Batousaii

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
NO! My point was against elitist hijacking threads. And you continue.

+1 Agree .. AWD is good at that. I have seen it a couple times now...

-- and he is VERY Rude in general.

- Probably wasnt spanked as a child.

:cool:
 

Nutczak

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For anyone that is on the bandwagon for socialized health care, When is the last time you have visited a VA hospital? Go take a look around, talk to a few vets or active military and ask thier satisfaction with the system. Maybe you'll see why I do not want the Govt. to take over healthcare for US citizens.

Most doctors and other staff in the VA is not good enough to be in the private sector, the VA seems to be a collection of mediocre or less medical personell.

If I am going in for another spinal surgery, I want the neurosurgeon that got an A+ on his work, not someone that got a D- working on me.
 
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