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Thread: Roseville PD changes wait for handgun permits

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I sent this to the Roseville police Chief on July 16th. The modified there website to reflect the law on handgun purchase permits.

    Dear Chief Heinz,

    I am President of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. a Michigan non-profit pro-gun rights organization that was formed to educate the public and the law enforcement community on the legality of openly carrying a firearm as well as defending all firearm rights. One of our members informed me that you are illegally forcing people to wait up to 10 days for a pistol purchase permit to be issued in direct violation of Michigan statute 28.422 (Excerpt below). This statute specifically states “…in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses…” The intent of this law was to issue a permit immediately or to immediately deny a permit if a prohibited person. Other departments both large and small around the state follow the law and issue permits while a person waits.

    I want to see a policy change on this issue within 10 business days. If you continue to illegally enforce this policy I will contact our corporate attorney in this regard and pursue any legal action as allowed by law.

    I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter and appreciate the difficult job you all do.

    Respectfully,

    Brian G. Jeffs, MS, CPG
    President-Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

    From Your website FAQ

    How do I obtain a gun permit?

    You must first fill out an application to purchase a gun permit. These applications are at the front desk of the Police Department. It takes 7 to 10 days to be approved after you fill out the application. You must call the Records Bureau to find out if you have been approved or denied (gun applications are good for one year). After you have been approved, you must go to the Records Bureau during the hours specified. There is no charge and the gun permit is only good for ten (10) days. Once the gun is purchased, you have ten (10) days to come back and get the gun registered.

    Act 372 of 1927

    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

    Sec. 2.

    ….(3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:

    Received this today from the Chief.

    Brian and Jon:

    Our police web site answer on “How do I obtain a gun permit” has been amended. Thanks for your correspondence.

    Chief Mike Pachla

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    This is what they have posted now.


    "How do I obtain a gun permit?
    You must first fill out an application to purchase a gun permit. These applications are at the front desk of the Police Department. In discharging its duty to issue a permit, the Police Department will do so with due speed and diligence. You must call the Records Bureau to find out if you have been approved or denied (gun applications are good for one year). After you have been approved, you must go to the Records Bureau during the hours specified. There is no charge and the gun permit is only good for ten (10) days. Once the gun is purchased, you have ten (10) days to come back and get the gun registered.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member drew68's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, it looks like they will still make you wait for approval by making you call to see if you've been approved.

    Being very new to the gun world, I was amazed that I could go to the sheriffs' dept. and get a purchase permit, head to the local gun store and buy a gun (and ammo) and be home with my new purchase in a matter of two hours.

  4. #4
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Smart arses.

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    drew68 wrote:
    Being very new to the gun world, I was amazed that I could go to the sheriffs' dept. and get a purchase permit, head to the local gun store and buy a gun (and ammo) and be home with my new purchase in a matter of two hours.
    Same here for Jackson County. Fortunatly I have a CPL now and if I want can buy one without a purchase permit now.

  6. #6
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    I love being able to go buy a gun without having to stop at the local pd.


    I thought they got rid of the whole registering and inspecting?So why would I have to take my gun back to the pd?

  7. #7
    Regular Member drew68's Avatar
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    Really not trying to be a smarty, just commenting on the absurdity of the differences of the rules within the same state. The recent vote to allow national concealed carry sparked all kinds of debate about the federal government stepping on the rights of the state, but even when a state has laws they still go about them in different ways. I think it calls for a little

  8. #8
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    cabman1 wrote:
    I love being able to go buy a gun without having to stop at the local pd
    +1,000,000

    I agree that is a huuuge plus. As well as not having to lock it in your trunk when your driving.

    Remember, you can make Oc'ing a lot easier on yourself with a cpl. For those interested please sign up for the cpl class being offered. It's a lot cheaper than what most places offer. Trust me, I know that $100 can be tough to come up with these days but if you have been thinking about doing it now is the time!

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/28789.html

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    I thought I got a deal for my CPL class at $125...

  10. #10
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    Smart arses.
    Really not trying to be a smarty, just commenting on the absurdity of the differences of the rules within the same state. The recent vote to allow national concealed carry sparked all kinds of debate about the federal government stepping on the rights of the state, but even when a state has laws they still go about them in different ways. I think it calls for a little
    That wasn't directed at you Drew, but rather the Roseville PD. It seems they think it's a funny joke instead of a violation of the law.

  11. #11
    Regular Member drew68's Avatar
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    That wasn't directed at you Drew, but rather the Roseville PD. It seems they think it's a funny joke instead of a violation of the law.
    My wife keeps telling me it's not all about me, i'm sensing a theme here

  12. #12
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I think they may need a little hand holding in this case.'

    You should write it out for them and submit it to them. They're obviously having a hard time understanding the law.

  13. #13
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    I sent this to the Roseville police Chief on July 16th. The modified there website to reflect the law on handgun purchase permits.

    Dear Chief Heinz,

    ....

    Received this today from the Chief.

    Brian and Jon:

    Our police web site answer on “How do I obtain a gun permit” has been amended. Thanks for your correspondence.

    Chief Mike Pachla
    Excellent work, Venator and MOC.

    I think some of the letter's wording wasa bit brusque.Perhapsthat's just due to a style bias or something. But you got your point across and the public information changed, so it's a success.

    Gotta take this opportunity to empathize with all of you Michiganders. Wow-eeee! You've got gunrules up the ying yang.

    It's very nice to view the activities and progress of MOC. You guys are doing great. I think you're following in the footsteps of successful gun rights advocacy orgs. likeVCDL, OCDO, BFA, etc.Keep up the good work.

  14. #14
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    drew68 wrote:
    Unfortunately, it looks like they will still make you wait for approval by making you call to see if you've been approved.
    Of course, it may be possible to meet bureacratic ineptness or intentional slowness with creative ways to light a fire under the bureacrat's butt.

    I wonder if it's not too expensive, and it's legally OK, tohire a robo-calling service to call every 5 minutes with the message, "Hi, this is [insert your name] calling aboutmy handgun purchase permit. Please press 1 if approved, 2 if denied, or 3 if still in process".

    I would think after a couple of hours of calls every 5 minutes, perhaps the spirit of "due speed and diligence" might be adhered to.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I have email the Chief to ask what the time frame is and what their process will be. I'll post what he writes.

    In the meantime you can email and ask what the process is. If they get 100 emails asking, they might understand that this is an important issue.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:
    I wonder if it's not too expensive, and it's legally OK, tohire a robo-calling service . . .
    Rarely do I talk to myself and even more rarely do I quote and respond to myself. However, it occurred to me that an alternative to hiring a robo-call service might be free or cheap software for your computer to do robo-calling.

    I just thought I'd share those thoughts with myself.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  17. #17
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    I wonder if it's not too expensive, and it's legally OK, tohire a robo-calling service . . .
    Rarely do I talk to myself and even more rarely do I quote and respond to myself. However, it occurred to me that an alternative to hiring a robo-call service might be free or cheap software for your computer to do robo-calling.

    I just thought I'd share those thoughts with myself.
    Or you could pay an out of work person 25 cents a call .
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  18. #18
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    Venator wrote:
    Or you could pay an out of work person 25 cents a call .
    Might even be cheaper. At 25 cents a call, and one call every 5 minutes, that is only $3 an hour...

  19. #19
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I think it would be nice to have a legal information flier that pistol permit seekers could print off that specifies the law, and can be shown to secretaries that file the paper work. I'm sure there are other cities that still do this, so it would be cool if a first time hand gun buyer could have that information in hand while walking into a PD. That way, the worst case scenario would be "you're permit will be ready in a week" and in response, the flier is handed to the clerk, and the permit seeker says "how about an hour instead?"

    I think a specific flier could be especially effective if it had official MOC approval, because as we've seen repetitiously, some PD's are a lot more confident about squashing one persons rights than taking on an entire organization.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    You could modify this, the statute is below.

    I am President of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. a Michigan non-profit pro-gun rights organization that was formed to educate the public and the law enforcement community on the legality of openly carrying a firearm as well as defending all firearm rights. One of our members informed me that you are illegally forcing people to wait up to 10 days for a pistol purchase permit to be issued in direct violation of Michigan statute 28.422 (Excerpt below). This statute specifically states “…in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses…” The intent of this law was to issue a permit immediately or to immediately deny a permit if a prohibited person. Other departments both large and small around the state follow the law and issue permits while a person waits.

    I want to see a policy change on this issue within 10 business days. If you continue to illegally enforce this policy I will contact our corporate attorney in this regard and pursue any legal action as allowed by law.

    I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter and appreciate the difficult job you all do.

    Respectfully,
    Brian G. Jeffs, MS, CPG
    President-Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

    Reference:

    Act 372 of 1927

    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.
    Sec. 2.
    ….(3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    In Royal Oak, I was able to get a purchase permit within 24 hours (Oct 2008). When I applied, I was told it should be ready the next day - and it was!

    Just 1 month ago, I was able to walk in and get a purchase permit in 15 minutes because I had gotten one within the last year. I do appreciate the way that they are handling these.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    I don't think I've waited more than 15 minutes to get a purchase permit, unless of course there were people being waited on in front of me.

    As far as the CPL training, I was grumbling about $50, I guess I should be happy.

    Also, do they still make you take that quiz in the rest of the state? I took it with the first gun I purchased, and haven't taken it since, and that was 13yrs ago.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Before I got my CPL the longest I waited for a PP was 7 min and 5 of that was me taking the silly test.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Bloomfield took about 2 hours (with me waiting in the lobby) to work on my PP... and ended up denying me anyway. So I preempted them by getting a CPL from the county. I still think it's funny how a city can deny me a purchase permit, but the county can approve my CPL. Goes to show you that some law enforcement agencies simply don't operate in a uniform manner. Fair and equal treatment under the law? Not in Michigan.

    When I called Troy (this was some time ago, it may have been changed since), I was told a PP takes 7 to 10 business days.

  25. #25
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    What was their reason for denial?

    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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