imported post
autosurgeon wrote:
What was their reason for denial?
Long story... But the clerk invoked the section of the law where a police officer, or deputized office clerk (which is what she was) could self-determine an applicant as a potential danger to themselves, or to others, as a reason for denial.
The long and short of it is that she based her decision on an arrest made 6 years ago... one in which I was never convicted (charges dropped, case dismissed). Initially, the "danger to (yourself) and others" was not mentioned until I protested her decision based on the fact that I was never convicted of anything, and that, in America, I enjoy the presumption of innocence until found guilty by a court of law. She trumped me with, "Well I feel that you're a danger to yourself and to others, so you're being denied." In particular, she referenced a statement by the officer, written in his police report, in which I allegedly challenged him to a fist fight. What she failed to understand, however, is that the report was completely stacked against me and inherently inaccurate. I remember that night clearly... AFTER I was arrested, handcuffed, and taken to the station; the arresting officer was trying to coax me to do something stupid. He said to me, "You think you're real smart, don't you?" I said, "Indeed I do, officer." He asked me if I thought I was tough. I told him that, indeed, I was. AFTER he took me to an area of the station void of camera's, and while I was still handcuffed, he shoved me into a wall TWICE; causing me to fall down. It made a loud enough commotion that another officer came around the corner to see what was going on. As I lay on the ground, still in handcuffs, I said very loudly "I AM NOT RESISTING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM AND I WISH TO BE HANDLED BY ANOTHER OFFICER." The officer who came to observe simply said, "I didn't see anything" then left the scene. The assaulting officer then asked how tough I was now... and then asked if I thought I could "take him". I responded by telling him that if he didn't have a badge, and if I weren't wearing handcuffs, that I could sweep the parking lot with his scrawny @$$. At that statement, he picked me up, bent my arms farther behind my back (to cause pain) and then walked me at a "very high rate of speed" towards a set of lockers... at which point he let go and caused me to run into them. Then he threw me in the drunk tank; still in cuffs. The next morning, when the next officer shift came in, my cuffs were removed... but I was still not permitted to make a phone call. Fortunately, by then, word had spread to my core group of friends and they arrived to post bail.
The bit about me telling the officer that I could "sweep the parking lot with his A$$" is the line that made it into the police report... no mention, whatsoever, of his own statements that preceded it; nor of any of the events that preceded it. And THAT'S the line that caused my denial of a purchase permit... it was quoted to me by both the deputized clerk, as well as the Lt. Was I out of line by saying that? Perhaps. But I also believe that the officer, himself, should have conducted himself more appropriately. The fact of the matter is that I was PISSED OFF for having been unjustly arrested... he was merely twisting the knife into my ribs. As far as I'm concerned, I was rude... but not unlawful. I was younger then, and it was my first "serious" run in with the law... I have since learned to keep my mouth shut when dealing with the police; regardless of how much they try to instigate me.
But I digress...
I escalated the matter to the Lt... who took several days for me to reach. When he didn't return any of my calls, I showed up in person. He listened to what I had to say (although he refused to take me somewhere private to discuss it... I had to discuss details about my past in front of everybody sitting in the lobby), at which point he instructed me to go to the court that I was tried in to obtain proof of the dismissal. I tried to explain that the lack of conviction, marked by a closed case disposition, should suffice as evidence of my innocence; but he failed to reason with me on it. To this day, I don't think he thought I would actually follow through with his request. But I did. I actually took a full day off of work, drove 30 miles to the city, paid (I think) $12 for a certified copy of the court record, and brought it back to him. He said he would look it over and get back to me. A week later, I heard nothing so I called him. He said that he was "just about to call (me)" (yeah right)... so I asked if he was fixing to call me with the GOOD news. He said no... that I was still being denied because he was standing by his deputized clerk's decision. When I asked for details about WHY they felt I was a danger, he said he was typing up a letter to send me. Several years later, that letter still hasn't come.
I made a last attempt to reason with the Lt. In doing so, he gained more ammunition to use against me. The fact is that he completely misunderstood what I was trying to say, twisted it out of context, and then added THAT to his other "reasons" for denying me. That cemented the notion, in my heart, to never again voluntarily disclose information to any officer for any reason.
From there, I escalated the matter to the Captain... who gave me all of about 5 minutes before hanging up on me. Prior to hanging up on me, he said, "If you don't like our decision, you can hire an attorney and sue us."
During our conversation, the Captain lamented that he could not live with the decision to GIVE me permission (as if I NEED permission from anyone to keep and bear arms) to purchase a pistol, if I were to use it to harm others. I thought it was absolutely ludicrous! I asked him if I needed his permission to buy 20 shotguns and 18 rifles... he said "no." I asked him how I was any less "dangerous" owning such an arsenal... he failed to comment. I asked if he could live with himself if I were the victim of a home invasion and lacked the ability to defend myself from an armed attacker. Again, he failed to answer.
During this entire ordeal, which lasted for nearly three months, I was directed to numerous agencies. When I was denied by the PD clerk, she told me I had to contact the FFL for more information. When I called the FFL, they said they saw no reason for the denial, and that I had to return to the PD. When I went back to the PD, they sent me to the CJIS. When I called the CJIS, they told me I had to go back to the PD. So i went back to the PD and they referred me to the "Michigan Gun Board". Unable to find a "Michigan Gun Board" at the .gov website, I contacted the MSP. The MSP told me they didn't see a reason for the denial, and to go back to the PD. When I went back to the PD, they told me that I had to contact the FBI and get a background check on myself. That cost me about $14 or $18 (going from memory), and it came back clean. For good measure, I also paid $10 to have an ICHAT (MSP) background check pulled on myself, and another $10 to have my SOS driving record pulled. All came back clean... no reason for denial. when I went back to the PD with all this information, they sent me (again) to the FFL. This time, they gave me a photocopied pamphlet that detailed instructions on how to file an appeal. So I sent all of my certified background checks to them, along with a fingerprint card (that cost me another $12) to begin the appeal process. Over a month later, I got my entire package sent back to me in the mail (with my fingerprint card and everything) with an explanation saying something to the effect of "There is no need to file an appeal because WE have not denied you. You have to return to your local police department." At that point, I made one last attempt to reason with the PD, which, as usual, was unsuccessful.
I called a pro-2A attorney (apparently, one of the best in the State) who listened to my case and told me, in so many words, that there was no lawful reason for the denial. He quoted me $3,500 to represent me. I asked him if I could sue to recover his fee. He said no... so I declined his services. I wasn't about to pay $3,500 for a purchase permit. He did, however, inform me that some Oakland County PD's make it very difficult for folks to get permits. In fact, this backed up what the Lt. told me when we had our fist conversation... he told me that I would "have an easier time getting a PP from another city... perhaps Wayne County." I remember asking him how that was fair and equal treatment under the law... that one city would give me a permit with "no problems", and yet THEY denied me. He just shrugged his shoulders.
Quite literally (this was told to me by the Lt. when I spoke to him), the PD was using the LEIN system to look up all of my prior arrests. Despite the lack of convictions, they used that information in the LEIN system to dub me as a danger to society. I won't sit here and say that I haven't challened the law on several occassions during my lifetime. But I will stand by the fact that I have always done so peacefully, and for good reason. Do I get arrested from time to time? Sure I do. But am I ever convicted of any crime for asserting my rights? Hell no. For those of you who remember my grand entrance to MOC, I was recently arrested in Detroit for openly carrying. I hadn't violated any laws and I was peaceful. But I DID assert my rights. That arrest went nowhere... it lasted all of about 20 minutes and I was released, on the spot, with a return of all my effects; including my pistol. I was told by the DPD that that incident won't show up in the LEIN... but you never know. I do know, however, that prior arrests (in which I was actually booked and jailed) ARE on my LEIN. In Detroit, I was just one fingerprint card away from facing yet another felony charge. Yet another charge that would have stuck to me like glue on rubber.
The fact of the matter is that I have never committed a violent act against another human being in all my life... not one that was not FIRST instigated by them, and then, only to defend myself. I have never harmed, nor attempted to harm, myself. Quite literally, this deputized office clerk (who didn't even carry a gun herself) made a determination about me that was not based on any sort of clinical data whatsoever.
Like I said though... I went around the city and got it taken care of. And it didn't cost me anything NEAR $3,500.
This is how people lose rights. They make it uber expensive for you to fight for them... to the point that most people simply give up. But not me. Not only can I walk into any store and purchase a pistol now, but I can also shove it in my waistband if I wanted to. And I haven't harmed anyone, myself included, in all my time carrying. Go figure.
