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1st Police Interaction

GlockMeisterG21

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Citizen wrote:
hugh jarmis wrote:
I will never provide my name. I refuse to give the police opportunityto make a point of retribution. Given that we ALL break the law every day (speeding) I don't want the police to know who I am. I don't want to be "on the list" that a local police department keeps of citizens that DARE to know and exercise their rights.

You might reconsider that, Hugh. Wisconsin has a stop-and-identify statute. Since there is no penalty written into the statute, I would assume for the moment thatthe penalty for obstruction would apply.

http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&d=stats&jd=968.24
968.24Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.


That is only applicable when reasonable suspision exists. When I was escorted out of a local mall I politely refused to identify myself to the officers and they did nothing about it. According to the AG's memo open carrying of a weapon is not, by itself, a crime.
 

Mike

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Citizen

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GlockMeisterG21 wrote:
SNIP 968.24Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

That is only applicable when reasonable suspision exists. When I was escorted out of a local mall I politely refused to identify myself to the officers and they did nothing about it. According to the AG's memo open carrying of a weapon is not, by itself, a crime.
You are right--only when RAS exists.

The problem is that the OCer has no real way to know for sure whether the cop has genuine reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), except perhaps in the occasional situation like GlockMeisterG21's.

From a legal process standpoint, it is the courts that determine whether RAS existed. If the court, at a pre-trial hearing,decides RAS did exist during the encounter, the OCer may be in real trouble for obstruction.

There are a number of things the OCer is up against in trying to guess whether the officer has genuine RAS, necessary to demand verbal identification.

  • The OCer does not know what the cop was told in a 911 call.
  • The cop may not tell the OCer the whole reason the cop isdetaining the OCer.
  • Cops are allowed to deceive suspects. Google permissible deception.
  • Even if the cop tells all truthfully, the OCer is still faced with having to correctly guess whether a court opinion has already ruled similar circumstances are sufficient to provide RAS.
  • But, lets say the OCer isfairly sure no court has ruled on it. The OCer stillhas to correctly guess whether the judge he will face will rule that the circumstances are not sufficient to provide RAS.
  • And, as if it wasn't complicated enough already, the police are allowed to draw reasonable inferences from the circumstances and evaluate them in light of their experience as a police officer. This opens the door to a number of things your average citizen would never consider suspicious because he doesn't deal daily with criminal behavior.
If the OCer guesses wrong, he very well may bein trouble for obstruction.

I'm convinced thebest course is to comply while politely refuse consent.
 

GlockMeisterG21

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Citizen wrote:
GlockMeisterG21 wrote:
SNIP 968.24Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

That is only applicable when reasonable suspision exists. When I was escorted out of a local mall I politely refused to identify myself to the officers and they did nothing about it. According to the AG's memo open carrying of a weapon is not, by itself, a crime.
You are right--only when RAS exists.

The problem is that the OCer has no real way to know for sure whether the cop has genuine reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), except perhaps in the occasional situation like GlockMeisterG21's.

From a legal process standpoint, it is the courts that determine whether RAS existed. If the court, at a pre-trial hearing,decides RAS did exist during the encounter, the OCer may be in real trouble for obstruction.

There are a number of things the OCer is up against in trying to guess whether the officer has genuine RAS, necessary to demand verbal identification.
  • The OCer does not know what the cop was told in a 911 call.
  • The cop may not tell the OCer the whole reason the cop isdetaining the OCer.
  • Cops are allowed to deceive suspects. Google permissible deception.
  • Even if the cop tells all truthfully, the OCer is still faced with having to correctly guess whether a court opinion has already ruled similar circumstances are sufficient to provide RAS.
  • But, lets say the OCer isfairly sure no court has ruled on it. The OCer stillhas to correctly guess whether the judge he will face will rule that the circumstances are not sufficient to provide RAS.
  • And, as if it wasn't complicated enough already, the police are allowed to draw reasonable inferences from the circumstances and evaluate them in light of their experience as a police officer. This opens the door to a number of things your average citizen would never consider suspicious because he doesn't deal daily with criminal behavior.
If the OCer guesses wrong, he very well may bein trouble for obstruction.

I'm convinced thebest course is to comply while politely refuse consent.
True, they can deceive you. But what are, at least in my experiance, the first 2 things a cop tells you when he stops you. He identifies himself as a cop and and then tells you why he stopped you. I would be willing to bet that most cops aren't going to lie to you right off the bat like that. Especially if you aren't doing anything suspicious when he sees you. Such as sitting with friends drinking coffee or in my case eating some chinese food and reading a book. If he doesn't tell you why he stopped you then ask him. Control the conversation. Say things like "Am I under arrest?" or "Am I free to go?" If you are not free to go then ask "Why not?" If you keep asking questions the you control the conversation. ALWAYS be polite when doing this. I like to keep my hands clasped in front of me so they are away from my gun. If he decides to be a smart-ass and asks you why you're asking so many question then tell him the truth. "I'm trying to ascertain whether or not you have sufficient reasonable suspicion to require me to identify myself." Saying things like that will make the officer understand that you know your right and understand the law. He will be less likely to try and BS you. Or you may piss him off. That's why I say be polite and use a voice recorder.

If faced with arrest or show ID I admit that I'd probably show my ID. I would however have the officer make it and order, comply under duress, and of course would be recording the entire incident with my voice recorder. It could be a big help in court if they decide to arrest you later in the conversation. As for why wouldn't you want to show ID? If they don't have your name or info it can't come back to bite you in the a$$ sometime down the road.
 

Citizen

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GlockMeisterG21 wrote:
SNIP True, they can deceive you...
You have good points. However, we're getting deeper into tactics without presenting the information in an orderly fashion for new guys.

For example,we've pretty much skipped over tactics involvingthe 4th Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. Things that need to happen at the very beginning of the encounter. We've touched on them, but notpresented them in an orderly way.

I'm a little concerned about this because I well remember spendingmonths on this forum getting the bits piece-meal. I'd rather the new folks have an opportunity to get in an orderly progression that makes sense and that they can follow, complete with cites of authority so they know they are on solid legal ground.

Since we've pretty much covered the ID question for theOPer, lets address tactics by starting off with the two mainintroductory videos forhim:

Busted: TheCitizens Guide to Surviving Police Encounters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

Talking to Police by Professor James Duane:

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

Also, the producers of the Busted video have a ton of useful information on their website: http://www.flexyourrights.org/
 

GlockMeisterG21

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Citizen wrote:
SNIP You have good points. However, we're getting deeper into tactics without presenting the information in an orderly fashion for new guys.
You're correct. I've been thinking about putting together some kind of comprehensive guide but honestly think it's too big of a task for me. Like you, I found out the bulk of my info from research and reading topics over time. I still learn new things and suspect I always will.
 

Nutczak

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Statute 968.24(Temporary questioning without arrest.) Is quite clear the way I read it.Is drinking coffee with friends a crime?
Did you have a map of the local brinks armored car depot out and were loudly speaking of how you would successfully burglarize the location? Were you speaking of drug deals in a voice loud enough for an uninterested party to hear. Those instances would have given a justifiable reason for intervention.

The AG clearly stated in his informal memo that having a firearm is not a good enough reason to detain an individual. Were your rights forcefully violated? I say no. But there was some slight surrendering of rights happening. Did you happen to notice any of the police officers hands fondling their sidearms, pepper-spray, or electric weapons while hanging around? I so I would consider that an act of intimidation. If any o those weapons were drawn, Why wouldn't it be considered "brandishing"?

968.24 After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

Obstructing; Since you were not being officially detained or questioned, it does not matter what you say or do really. I always answer questions with another question. Example; "Where are you going to/coming from" my reply is usually Officer, Does that informationhave any particular bearing in this situation?" And when they answer "No" my reply is usually "Then it really doesn't matter then, does it?"

By using those tactics, I am not lying to the officer, just ending their fishing expedition without giving them reason to arrest and starting my own fishing expedition myself to see thereal reason for the officer stopping me.

Anyways, Carry On!



 

pvtschultz

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Great thread guys! Keep up the good work. There has been an alarming number of LEO encounters as of late though. There was another one out in Muskego at the Super Walmart. I think that we need to start having OC walksin these areaslike was done in Milwaukee.

Also, to the OP'er. Please go back to that coffee shop and ask to speak with the manager. Since you were not asked to leave, even after that A$$hole LEO tried to get you removed, you should thank him for his support of his rights. Let him know that you'll post to the thousands of members here about his support, and we'll support his business as a means to return the favor. In this economy especially, discretionary shops (coffee and even restaurants) are having a VERY hard time keeping their head abover water. By letting him know that we are all watching, he'll feel better about his decision to allow you (and other OC'ers) to enjoy his services. Money talks, just ask the managers of Sentry that changed their mind due to the bad press on OCDO.

Carry on!
 

Shotgun

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Citizen wrote:
I would assume for the moment thatthe penalty for obstruction would apply.
I think obstruction, under Wisconsin law, means to provide false or misleading information to the police, e.g, a fake name or some other person's name.
 

Shotgun

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Note in the annotations that refusal to provide a name, or silence, is not obstruction. Also look at the last interesting citation which states the police must be acting lawfully at the time, i.e., in accordance with the state and federal constitutions.

946.41(2m) Whoever violates sub. (1) under all of the following circumstances
is guilty of a Class H felony:
(a) The violator gives false information or places physical evidence
with intent to mislead an officer.
(b) At a criminal trial, the trier of fact considers the false information
or physical evidence.
(c) The trial results in the conviction of an innocent person.
(3) Whoever by violating this section hinders, delays or prevents
an officer from properly serving or executing any summons
or civil process, is civilly liable to the person injured for any actual
loss caused thereby and to the officer or the officer’s superior for
any damages adjudged against either of them by reason thereof.
History: 1977 c. 173; 1983 a. 189; 1989 a. 121; 1993 a. 486; 2001 a. 109.
The state must prove that the accused knew that the officer was acting in an official
capacity and knew that the officer was acting with lawful authority when the accused
allegedly resisted or obstructed the officer. State v. Lossman, 118 Wis. 2d 526, 348
N.W.2d 159 (1984).
Knowingly providing false information with intent to mislead is obstruction as a
matter of law. State v. Caldwell, 154 Wis. 2d 683, 454 N.W.2d 13 (Ct. App. 1990).
No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a person’s refusal to give his or
her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey,
194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995).
Fleeing and hiding from an officer may constitute obstructing. State v. Grobstick,
200 Wis. 2d 242, 546 N.W.2d 494 (1996), 94−1045.
There is no exculpatory denial exception under this section. The statute criminalizes
all false statements knowingly made and with intent to mislead the police. The
state should have sound reasons for believing that a defendant knowingly made false
statements with intent to mislead the police and not out of a good−faith attempt to
defend against accusations of a crime. The latter can never include the former. State
v. Reed, 2005 WI 53, 280 Wis. 2d 68, 695 N.W.2d 315, 03−1781.
“Lawful authority,” as that term is used in sub. (1), requires that police conduct be
in compliance with both the federal and state constitutions, in addition to any applicable
statutes. State v. Ferguson, 2009 WI 50, ___ Wis. 2d ___, ____ N.W.2d ___,
07−2095.
 

hugh jarmis

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You might reconsider that, Hugh. Wisconsin has a stop-and-identify statute. Since there is no penalty written into the statute, I would assume for the moment thatthe penalty for obstruction would apply.
As stated an officer needs reasonable suspicion.

I KNOW I am not doing anything wrong so I know the officer doesn't have reasonable suspicion. As such, I know my response is voluntary. AndI choose not to volunteer the information.

It is also my understanding from case-law that a phone-call complaint in and of itself doesn't not constitute reasonable suspicion. So the officer would have to observe or see something else, and i know thats not the case.

If he REALLY has reasonable suspicion I don't expect he's going to come up and strike a conversation with me. He's going to come order me to put my hands up or something and disarm me.
 

Citizen

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Shotgun wrote:
SNIP Note in the annotations that refusal to provide a name, or silence, is not obstruction. Also look at the last interesting citation which states the police must be acting lawfully at the time, i.e., in accordance with the state and federal constitutions.


1. No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a person’s refusal to give his or
her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey,
194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995).

2. “Lawful authority,” as that term is used in sub. (1), requires that police conduct be
in compliance with both the federal and state constitutions, in addition to any applicable
statutes. State v. Ferguson, 2009 WI 50, ___ Wis. 2d ___, ____ N.W.2d ___,
07−2095.

1. Check the date on their case cite--1995. Then check the date on Hiibel--2004. I would say Hiibel basically overturned this case. In fact, maintaining silence and the right to silence in regard to having to give your name was the main question in Hiibel.

2. This statement is just a restatement of a fundamental of law. It goes without saying thatpolice conduct must be in compliance with law. There may be silver lining, though. I wonder if this can be used to get around sovereign immunity on questions of good faith mistakes by police and so forth.



In any event, I can't see the stop-and-identify statute as a legal nullity. If refusal to identify can't be charged under obstruction (and I'm not convinced it can't), I'm betting there is a penalty somewhere else. For the moment, if I lived in Wisconsin, and I wanted to really know the details, I'd look deeper into the obstruction angle. Its bound to have come up a number of times already since theHiibel decision five yearsago.
 

J.Gleason

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The videos at flexyourrights.org are something everyone should watch especially the "busted" video.
Also on youtube, the video titled "Don't talk to cops", 1 and 2.

I know that these have been posted before buy Hugh Jarmis and Citizen, but I think they are very useful in helping people understand the whole process, so I wanted to put those titles out there again for everyone.
 

Citizen

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hugh jarmis wrote:
SNIP As stated an officer needs reasonable suspicion.

I KNOW I am not doing anything wrong so I know the officer doesn't have reasonable suspicion. As such, I know my response is voluntary. AndI choose not to volunteer the information.

It is also my understanding from case-law that a phone-call complaint in and of itself doesn't not constitute reasonable suspicion. So the officer would have to observe or see something else, and i know thats not the case.

If he REALLY has reasonable suspicion I don't expect he's going to come up and strike a conversation with me. He's going to come order me to put my hands up or something and disarm me.

Hugh,

Didn't you read my bulleted list of potential troubles above? Its not whether you know you were doing something wrong. Its whether the court will decide the officer had enough of a reason to detain you based on the information available to him.

Also, the court will allow him to draw reasonable inferences from the information available to him, and will take into account what the information would mean to him in view of his experience as a police officer.

Out of all the court opinions I have read involving detentions, in only onedid the court consider what the citizen thought.And that one was for assault on the officer in resisting anillegal detention. (The court let the citizen's conviction stand,by the way.)
 

Doug Huffman

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Citizen wrote:
Check the date on their case cite--1995. Then check the date on Hiibel--2004. I would say Hiibel basically overturned this case. In fact, maintaining silence and the right to silence in regard to having to give your name was the main question in Hiibel.
What is the significance of 'annotation' into the same page (even print hardcopy) as the black letter statute law? I see that else where the Heller decision has been incorporated into Wisc. Statutes as an annotation.
 

Brass Magnet

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Doug Huffman wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Check the date on their case cite--1995. Then check the date on Hiibel--2004. I would say Hiibel basically overturned this case. In fact, maintaining silence and the right to silence in regard to having to give your name was the main question in Hiibel.
What is the significance of 'annotation' into the same page (even print hardcopy) as the black letter statute law? I see that else where the Heller decision has been incorporated into Wisc. Statutes as an annotation.
Doug, could you cite the places the heller decision shows up in the WISC statutes? I'd like to see it just out of curiousity. I tried a search for "heller" but it must not search the annotations....
 

vmaxanarchist

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Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news. However it is very easy for an LEO to characterize this encounter as consensual.

Unless the OP had an audio-recorder it is hard to refute this as a consensual encounter. If the LEO claims he said "I would like to see your ID", instead of "I need to see ID". Then it's consensual without proof refuting the LEO's version.

In order to establish it clearly as a detention. The OP would have needed to ask"Officer are you asking or demanding my ID?". Also, an audio-recorder to backhim up if the LEO lies on his report.
 
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