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is there pending legislation????

Kildars

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n15wb wrote
On the surface what you write is true. However, changing employers is not so easy. When ones education and line of work puts you in a sector that is limited, and puts you in the employ of a government agency on top of it, changing jobs can turn into starting from scratch all over again. Giving up years of education, seniority, retirement etc. You are correct in that you could park off property or fly under the radar. My point is that using the guise of property rights to disarm me off the property does not set well with me. I tend to agree with FMCDH's comment:

"Many, including myself, might argue that "carrying" a firearm on private property and "storing it in a private vehicle in a lawful manner" are quite different things."

I do believe in property rights, and would not carry into ones house without their permission, nor would I carry/trespass on ones property (ie hunting) without their permission.

I do routinely store my firearm in my private vehicle in a lawful manner when visiting people and places so that I might be armed when not on that property.

Cheers,
Bill
I agree that it would be difficult but life is full of difficult decisions. You need to make that choice to find out what is important to you. Is carrying your firearm to/from work that important to you where you would need to find a job that allows it? You would not appreciate if someone did it to you (well maybe you wouldn't care because of your stance on guns, but if you were anti-gun). So why is it okay for the government to force employers to allow something on their property that they clearly do not want.
 

bobestes

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Why are the private property owners not allowed to regulate what comes on their property (whether known or unknown). I'm sure if you were anti-gun (which obviously you're not) you would not appreciate someone bringing firearms on your property if you specifically asked them not to.
Business owners will sometimes post signs that say, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." This is reasonable as there are many reasons why someone is not a desirable customer, however, some business used to use this to exclude ethnic minorities. The courts have ruled that there are limitations on this right, specifically in the public access areas of the business. It can therefore be argued that anything one has in their vehicle that does not create a public hazard is of no concern to the property owner.

When an employer prohibits an employee from having a self defense firearm in his vehicle or on company property, the employer also restricts the employees ability to defend himself while en route to and from the place of employment. Perhaps a better way to resolve the issue is to pass a law to make the employer (property owner) financially liable for the protection of the employees while traveling to and from the place of employment whenever the employer has a policy that restricts the ability of any employee to defend himself. This liability would include full financial liability for loss of property and the medical treatment of all injuries the employee incurs as a result of that policy.

If such a law was enacted, employers would quickly realize that is is more cost effective to allow firearms on their property than to accept the liability.
 

Kildars

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bobestes wrote:
Why are the private property owners not allowed to regulate what comes on their property (whether known or unknown). I'm sure if you were anti-gun (which obviously you're not) you would not appreciate someone bringing firearms on your property if you specifically asked them not to.
Business owners will sometimes post signs that say, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." This is reasonable as there are many reasons why someone is not a desirable customer, however, some business used to use this to exclude ethnic minorities. The courts have ruled that there are limitations on this right, specifically in the public access areas of the business. It can therefore be argued that anything one has in their vehicle that does not create a public hazard is of no concern to the property owner.

When an employer prohibits an employee from having a self defense firearm in his vehicle or on company property, the employer also restricts the employees ability to defend himself while en route to and from the place of employment. Perhaps a better way to resolve the issue is to pass a law to make the employer (property owner) financially liable for the protection of the employees while traveling to and from the place of employment whenever the employer has a policy that restricts the ability of any employee to defend himself. This liability would include full financial liability for loss of property and the medical treatment of all injuries the employee incurs as a result of that policy.

If such a law was enacted, employers would quickly realize that is is more cost effective to allow firearms on their property than to accept the liability.
I don't think you can equate these two scenarios. It's not like the employer is saying "only whites can keep firearms in their car" and it's also not true that only blacks carry guns so they're not even indirectly preventing blacks from coming onto their property. This is a universal rule that applies to anyone. Whether or not something creates liability for the owner is not the determining factor in whether you can set aside their right to private property and what they allow on it, if you can show a legal precedent that has that then I guess it could be argued but of all the case law I've read I do not see that.
 

bobestes

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Kildars wrote:
bobestes wrote:
Why are the private property owners not allowed to regulate what comes on their property (whether known or unknown). I'm sure if you were anti-gun (which obviously you're not) you would not appreciate someone bringing firearms on your property if you specifically asked them not to.
Business owners will sometimes post signs that say, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." This is reasonable as there are many reasons why someone is not a desirable customer, however, some business used to use this to exclude ethnic minorities. The courts have ruled that there are limitations on this right, specifically in the public access areas of the business. It can therefore be argued that anything one has in their vehicle that does not create a public hazard is of no concern to the property owner.

When an employer prohibits an employee from having a self defense firearm in his vehicle or on company property, the employer also restricts the employees ability to defend himself while en route to and from the place of employment. Perhaps a better way to resolve the issue is to pass a law to make the employer (property owner) financially liable for the protection of the employees while traveling to and from the place of employment whenever the employer has a policy that restricts the ability of any employee to defend himself. This liability would include full financial liability for loss of property and the medical treatment of all injuries the employee incurs as a result of that policy.

If such a law was enacted, employers would quickly realize that is is more cost effective to allow firearms on their property than to accept the liability.
I don't think you can equate these two scenarios. It's not like the employer is saying "only whites can keep firearms in their car" and it's also not true that only blacks carry guns so they're not even indirectly preventing blacks from coming onto their property. This is a universal rule that applies to anyone. Whether or not something creates liability for the owner is not the determining factor in whether you can set aside their right to private property and what they allow on it, if you can show a legal precedent that has that then I guess it could be argued but of all the case law I've read I do not see that.

What I was trying to say was that since property rights have been restricted in the past, they could, rightly or wrongly, be restricted in this case.

I think a better solution would be to give employers the option to either allow firearms or accept the financial liability for not allowing them. This would preserve the private property rights while ensuring that the employees would be made financially whole for any loss they incure because because of their employers' policy. Also, if they are killed, their estate would have a large financial claim against the employer. If such a law was enacted, I think that most employers would choose to allow firearms.
 

Kildars

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Chandler, AZ/Federal Way, WA, ,
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bobestes wrote:
Kildars wrote:
bobestes wrote:
Why are the private property owners not allowed to regulate what comes on their property (whether known or unknown). I'm sure if you were anti-gun (which obviously you're not) you would not appreciate someone bringing firearms on your property if you specifically asked them not to.
Business owners will sometimes post signs that say, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." This is reasonable as there are many reasons why someone is not a desirable customer, however, some business used to use this to exclude ethnic minorities. The courts have ruled that there are limitations on this right, specifically in the public access areas of the business. It can therefore be argued that anything one has in their vehicle that does not create a public hazard is of no concern to the property owner.

When an employer prohibits an employee from having a self defense firearm in his vehicle or on company property, the employer also restricts the employees ability to defend himself while en route to and from the place of employment. Perhaps a better way to resolve the issue is to pass a law to make the employer (property owner) financially liable for the protection of the employees while traveling to and from the place of employment whenever the employer has a policy that restricts the ability of any employee to defend himself. This liability would include full financial liability for loss of property and the medical treatment of all injuries the employee incurs as a result of that policy.

If such a law was enacted, employers would quickly realize that is is more cost effective to allow firearms on their property than to accept the liability.
I don't think you can equate these two scenarios. It's not like the employer is saying "only whites can keep firearms in their car" and it's also not true that only blacks carry guns so they're not even indirectly preventing blacks from coming onto their property. This is a universal rule that applies to anyone. Whether or not something creates liability for the owner is not the determining factor in whether you can set aside their right to private property and what they allow on it, if you can show a legal precedent that has that then I guess it could be argued but of all the case law I've read I do not see that.

What I was trying to say was that since property rights have been restricted in the past, they could, rightly or wrongly, be restricted in this case.

I think a better solution would be to give employers the option to either allow firearms or accept the financial liability for not allowing them. This would preserve the private property rights while ensuring that the employees would be made financially whole for any loss they incure because because of their employers' policy. Also, if they are killed, their estate would have a large financial claim against the employer. If such a law was enacted, I think that most employers would choose to allow firearms.
Do you think that is an okay argument? Because government has encroached too far in the past they should be allowed to encroach even farther? Would you agree that because government has banned assault weapons in the past, they should be able to do it again? I think you would agree the government was wrong for doing that, and that would not give them precedent to do it again, or make a more restrictive ban on firearms.

Again, directly or indirectly, forcing employers to allow firearms on their property goes against our constitution, the founding fathers view of property rights, and the very liberty we enjoy in this country. Scaring employers [by threatening significant financial hardship if they don't comply] is no different than forcing them to do it by legislation.
 

Bill Starks

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My company leases out the garage during the day to the public, yet I am not allowed to lock my weapon in my vehicle. I for one will be glad to see legislation passed. I have done everything possible to get my company to see the error in their logic to no avail.
 

Window_Seat

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Vacaville, California, USA
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So why is it okay for the government to force employers to allow something on their property that they clearly do not want.

Let's change "allow" to "disallow" for a moment...

There are a number of "somethings" that (some) employers would absolutely love to have on their property that the Government must say no to the employer having; surveillance camcorders in the bathroom stalls come to mind. That is the flip side to that particular question. Now, as an example of what employers don't want on their property, I can name "OSHA" as one, and the Health Department as another. You know those giant posters that you might see on the walls (or maybe that's only in CA)? You catch my drift on that.

The Second Amendment issue is one which courts would have no problem saying employers don't have to recognize, so it's up to us as "We the People" to force the Legislature(s) to force (our) employers to allow us to defend ourselves on & off the job without showing us the door. Until then, we can't exercise our given right (whether given to us by our FFs or the Creator, or the Operators of the Atom Smasher responsible for the creation of our Universe), until we make an effort to make it happen.

Erik.
 

bobestes

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Aberdeen, Washington, USA
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What I was trying to say was that since property rights have been restricted in the past, they could, rightly or wrongly, be restricted in this case.

I think a better solution would be to give employers the option to either allow firearms or accept the financial liability for not allowing them. This would preserve the private property rights while ensuring that the employees would be made financially whole for any loss they incure because because of their employers' policy. Also, if they are killed, their estate would have a large financial claim against the employer. If such a law was enacted, I think that most employers would choose to allow firearms.
Do you think that is an okay argument? Because government has encroached too far in the past they should be allowed to encroach even farther? Would you agree that because government has banned assault weapons in the past, they should be able to do it again? I think you would agree the government was wrong for doing that, and that would not give them precedent to do it again, or make a more restrictive ban on firearms.

Again, directly or indirectly, forcing employers to allow firearms on their property goes against our constitution, the founding fathers view of property rights, and the very liberty we enjoy in this country. Scaring employers [by threatening significant financial hardship if they don't comply] is no different than forcing them to do it by legislation.
Point 1:

If you re-read my last post, you will see that I said that rightly or wrongly, property rights could be restricted in this case. Whether the restriction is right or wrong is a matter of debate. All rights, including property rights are not absolute. Freedom of speech does not give one the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater unless there actually is a fire. Keeping a large quantity of high explosives in your condo would create a hazard to other people in the building. Freedom of religion does not include the right to human sacrifice. etc., etc., etc.

Point 2:

Employers have certain obligations to their employees. Among these is to provide a safe work place. In this application, the term safe is somewhat relative depending on the type of work. A safe work environment for an office worker is considerably different from one for a high iron worker. For the purpose of this discussion, safe means to be safe from attack by one or more armed assailants. There are two ways for an employer to provide this safety. He can either allow the employees to be armed and protect themselves, or he can hire security guards and provide the security for them. Failure to do either opens the employer up for civil lawsuits by injured employees or their heirs.

Normally, when an employee leaves the employers property, his safety becomes his own problem. However, when an employer's policy prevents the employee from protecting himself while traveling to and from the place of employment, it becomes the employer's problem. Once again, the employer must make a choice on how to solve the problem. The employer can provide door-to-door security for the employees, or allow the employees to be armed and provide their own security. Failure to do either would make the employer financially liable for any and all losses incurred by the employees during their commute.

I believe this policy protects both the property rights of the employer and the self defense rights of the employee.
 

bobestes

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M1Gunr wrote:
My company leases out the garage during the day to the public, yet I am not allowed to lock my weapon in my vehicle. I for one will be glad to see legislation passed. I have done everything possible to get my company to see the error in their logic to no avail.

You could politely suggest to them that they might get sued by some employee (not necessarily yourself) who gets carjacked or mugged during his commute because their policy prevented him from defending himself.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Florida has made it illegal for your employer to ban it from being in your car, in the parking lot. This link also states some of the concerns about private property.

In General I personally feel if you own a business or operate a public business or hire public employees that it is reasonable to not allow people to carry weapons on their person, for private property rights, but that you have no right to infringe upon them from home to work. Which restricting it from being in their vehicle would do. Interesting thought would be if you took public transportation to work what then? I am on the fence on this one, where do you draw the line? I personally would encourage most of my employees to be armed but then I love an armed society.

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/20769379.html
 

compmanio365

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My rights don't stop when I walk out the door. If we say "Oh, private property trumps all other rights", then it's easy to ban guns altogether, especially when it's apparently OK for public property to be sold/rented to private ventures, or public entities to get around being public by creating a faux private business and running things through it. I don't buy it. I won't obey those laws. I will carry and be armed wherever I choose to be. If I have to carry concealed to do it, so be it, but I would rather carry openly whenever I can. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.....where my gun is outlawed, I become an outlaw. So be it. If you don't respect my rights, then I don't respect yours. You really have no way to stop me, short of metal detectors at your entrance.
 

Aaron1124

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compmanio365 wrote:
My rights don't stop when I walk out the door. If we say "Oh, private property trumps all other rights", then it's easy to ban guns altogether, especially when it's apparently OK for public property to be sold/rented to private ventures, or public entities to get around being public by creating a faux private business and running things through it. I don't buy it. I won't obey those laws. I will carry and be armed wherever I choose to be. If I have to carry concealed to do it, so be it, but I would rather carry openly whenever I can. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.....where my gun is outlawed, I become an outlaw. So be it. If you don't respect my rights, then I don't respect yours. You really have no way to stop me, short of metal detectors at your entrance.
Sing it brother!
 

Jeff Hayes

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Long gone
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compmanio365 wrote:
My rights don't stop when I walk out the door. If we say "Oh, private property trumps all other rights", then it's easy to ban guns altogether, especially when it's apparently OK for public property to be sold/rented to private ventures, or public entities to get around being public by creating a faux private business and running things through it. I don't buy it. I won't obey those laws. I will carry and be armed wherever I choose to be. If I have to carry concealed to do it, so be it, but I would rather carry openly whenever I can. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.....where my gun is outlawed, I become an outlaw. So be it. If you don't respect my rights, then I don't respect yours. You really have no way to stop me, short of metal detectors at your entrance.

+1000

Orphan
 
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