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Thread: Losing the Fight

  1. #1
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    Well, I met with a representative of the Attorney General's office last week and was enlightened by their take on the open carry at University Health facilities. Since Title 10 of state code forbids the open carry at a school, a reading of the "school" definitions was eye-opening. Contrary to the U.S. code, Utah includes vocational and higher education facilities in it's definition of the word and what is more, any associated facility to that school, (i.e. UUHC Community Clinics) whether or not any teaching activity actually takes place there. So, as of this posting , it's a non-winner.

    The only means of proceding from here is to get the legislature to change the definition. (or simply repeal that portion of the definition) Until then , only concealcarry permit holders may exercise their RKBA at any State University or University associated facilities. So if you're too poor to afford a permit, your rights don't count.

    I do intend to write & call my state rep & senator. Please do the same.

    Mueller Badener

  2. #2
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    To be clear, OC is NOT prohibited. But one does need a valid permit to legally carry a gun onto school grounds (unless one has the permission of the proper school administrator). In Utah, schools include higher ed, vocational and tech schools, etc.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  3. #3
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    To be clear, OC is NOT prohibited. But one does need a valid permit to legally carry a gun onto school grounds (unless one has the permission of the proper school administrator). In Utah, schools include higher ed, vocational and tech schools, etc.

    Charles
    Actually I tried to pin the AG rep down on that issue and he evaded the question each time, but by my reading of the statute, you are correct. Open carry.org has Utah listed as campus open carry legal and that isn't entirely true.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    You state that you are to poor to pay for a permit ? Well I ask this your scedule is Mon-Friday correct I am assuming based on your place of work. One day of a temporary job or finding a source of income maybe cutting certain things out of the budget ETC.

    You can aquire a CFP so that you can carry into these places. Openly without issue the University is a teaching Hosptial. I know some will argue that it is legal It can go both ways.

    Another thing you need to think about is this with a CFP you can conceal when needed and open carry if you choose to do so.

    A Hosptial or clinic where sick people go and children may not be the correct place. Or maybe a Church it is a option to conceal your firearm. 3 Month ago I had a relative die I was assigned to carry the casket. This would be a time I would conceal my firearm out of respect for the family.

    Please consider where you choose to carry your firearm out on the Open. I am saying this to you to help guide you in the right direction. Take my advice or leave it I have been openly carrying my firearm Since I was 21 now Almost 30.

    I greatly respect all the members on this fourm some I have met others I have worked with.

    I would love to go out anytime and open carry with anyone of these members just takes a PM and a time I don't work.

    Thanks

    Zach



    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  5. #5
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    MuellerBadener wrote:
    Open carry.org has Utah listed as campus open carry legal and that isn't entirely true.
    It does look like the map needs to corrected; and so too does the info page linked to the maps. While K-12 carry is properly listed as "specifically authorized for permit holders" the college carry info says only "specifically authorized".

    However, the subject has come up here frequently and many regulars routinely point out that Utah's GFSZ law covers not only K-12, but also preschools, trade schools, tech schools, colleges/universities, and so on. Indeed, we've got the whole "school activity" included in the definition.

    We need to get this corrected and brought in line with the far less broad federal definition. But it is important for those who are going to carry a gun to become well versed in the laws governing that carry. Off limit locations are one of the most important thing to learn because they so often are arbitrary rather than based on any inherent moral code.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  6. #6
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    MuellerBadener wrote:
    Open carry.org has Utah listed as campus open carry legal and that isn't entirely true.
    It does look like the map needs to corrected
    What needs to be corrected on the college carry map? In Utah carry on college campus is specifically authorized and that is what the map says.

  7. #7
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    Mike wrote:
    utbagpiper wrote:
    MuellerBadener wrote:
    Open carry.org has Utah listed as campus open carry legal and that isn't entirely true.
    It does look like the map needs to corrected
    What needs to be corrected on the college carry map? In Utah carry on college campus is specifically authorized and that is what the map says.
    Says specifically authorized, not special authorization needed. It looks like you are saying that is s[pecically stated that open carry is O.K. as opposed to simply "Not phohibited"

    Granted, I should have delved further into whethre or not Utah has a different definition of what "school " means than the Feds or other states I've lived in. (or that My DR office was "school") I am not the only one to have made this mistake though.

  8. #8
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    What needs to be corrected on the college carry map? In Utah carry on college campus is specifically authorized and that is what the map says.
    It would be helpful if it read the same way that K-12 carry reads. "Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute For Permit Holders " on both the summary and the college carry map.

    The way it reads now is a bit misleading for those that do not have a concealed firearm permit, and choose not to investigate further than the map.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #9
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    Mike wrote:
    What needs to be corrected on the college carry map? In Utah carry on college campus is specifically authorized and that is what the map says.
    College carry is specifically authorized in Utah ONLY for those with valid permits. Now, those permits can be issued by anywhere in the nation since colleges are not subject to the federal GFSZ law. But the Utah State GFSZ law specifically includes colleges, tech schools, universities, trade schools, preschools, and even school activities conducted at locations other than schools. So a permit is generally required to carry a gun in these locations (lacking permission from the proper school adminstrator and so on).

    We in Utah do need to get our GFSZ law brought into conformity with federal law to avoid this kind of confusion.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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