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Thread: CPL Denied Unlawfully

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    The King County Sheriff Office refused to issue me a CPL. I was mailed a letter of denial that falsely reported my criminal record contained a DV-assault 4 arrest and conviction 3 years ago by their department and the King County Court. That letter said that I had 10 days to provide documentation that their information was wrong or the State Department of Licensing would be notified to update their computer records to show I was prohibited from carrying a gun.

    I was convicted of assault 4, NOT DV Assault 4. I mailed the order and sentence for assault 4 to the KCSO Records Manager. I spoke with the records manager who called me back several times with 'reasons' for the denial.

    First, somone(from the KCSO or prosecutor) reported it as a DV to the FBI NCIC database. I said your mistake correct it, Documentation mailed as proof. I was told my file would be pulled and it would be looked into.

    I was called back later and 'informed' that I was still going to be denied because Assault 4 was also a disqualifier. I let the Records Manager know that she was wrong and what RCW she needed to read and what my attorneys opinion was.

    Next I was told that the Assault 4 conviction still counted because it was really DV. I should have been prosecuted for DV and would need to have been convicted of it to disqualify me of it. I reminded them of the 30 day time period to issue. It was to be looked into.

    After the 30 days I was called back and told that one of their lawers said the denial stands. I informed them that this would then have to go to court. Waste the taxpayers money. Under RCW 9.41.0975 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.0975 the taxpayers will have to pay for all of the attorneys and court resources. I think it is a crime. I know I am on somones shitlist, but who is breaking the law?

    This is a waste of my life but I have to fight it. I probably couldn't even buy a gun now if I had the money.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    There isn't anyone here that can or should really advise you beyond how your own attorney already has.

    The law is the law. You are held to it, and so should those who would deny your lawful rights be, if indeed your conviction does not disqualify you as your own attorney has advised you, then you have to make the final decision about how much your 2nd Amendment rights mean to you.

    Good luck.



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    NotSteve wrote:
    The King County Sheriff Office refused to issue me a CPL. I was mailed a letter of denial that falsely reported my criminal record contained a DV-assault 4 arrest and conviction 3 years ago by their department and the King County Court. That letter said that I had 10 days to provide documentation that their information was wrong or the State Department of Licensing would be notified to update their computer records to show I was prohibited from carrying a gun.

    I was convicted of assault 4, NOT DV Assault 4. I mailed the order and sentence for assault 4 to the KCSO Records Manager. I spoke with the records manager who called me back several times with 'reasons' for the denial.

    First, somone(from the KCSO or prosecutor) reported it as a DV to the FBI NCIC database. I said your mistake correct it, Documentation mailed as proof. I was told my file would be pulled and it would be looked into.

    I was called back later and 'informed' that I was still going to be denied because Assault 4 was also a disqualifier. I let the Records Manager know that she was wrong and what RCW she needed to read and what my attorneys opinion was.

    Next I was told that the Assault 4 conviction still counted because it was really DV. I should have been prosecuted for DV and would need to have been convicted of it to disqualify me of it. I reminded them of the 30 day time period to issue. It was to be looked into.

    After the 30 days I was called back and told that one of their lawers said the denial stands. I informed them that this would then have to go to court. Waste the taxpayers money. Under RCW 9.41.0975 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.0975 the taxpayers will have to pay for all of the attorneys and court resources. I think it is a crime. I know I am on somones @#$%list, but who is breaking the law?

    This is a waste of my life but I have to fight it. I probably couldn't even buy a gun now if I had the money.

    What was the nature of your "assault 4" incident?

    Who did you assault? Was it a woman or a man?






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    NotSteve wrote:
    SNIP Next I was told that the Assault 4 conviction still counted because it was really DV. I should have been prosecuted for DV and would need to have been convicted of it to disqualify me of it.
    Welcome to OCDO!!!

    I hate to bear bad news, but the state may have the law straight.

    Therehas been a US Supreme Ct decision recently that said in so many words that the conviction need not specifically name DV as the offense. All that is needed is for the assault to be against a person in the domestic relationship. There is a list in the Lautenberg Amendment to the 1968 Gun Control Act.

    I'll see if I can find the Supreme Court decision.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I do not have a lawer for this pinned down yet. I am not sure if one I know would be willing to go without a retainer or if he would be willing/able to challenge them for some civil damages. The statute that provides for resonable atty costs assumes you can get one to grab the case. I am not looking to make any money on my misfortune, just to see that right is done and somebody/everyone is held accountable.

    The assault 4 conviction was for pushing a male 'freind'. It was in my house where I was helping him to leave. He was taking xanax and 100proof vodka the night before and was tore up, along with my living room. I was doing him a favor i thought by letting im sleep some of it off. The next morning I wanted him to leave witch wasn't too easy because he was still hammered. I showed him the door. He was mad because the only place he could go was his step dads home where he was alredy kicked out from for doing similar stuff. He was never a roommate, living mate, family, lover, or anything but a pos. I had a number of guns taken from my house because he said I punched him. The Sheriff has fought tooth and nail to not return those guns that include an ak-47 with bullets. The lawer trying to get those guns back is the one I have talked to about this an as a public defender can't help me with the cpl issue. That lawer took over after I could no longer afford my private lawer, who I had to get because the judge denied me a public defender to appeal the defacto forefiture. Its a pain and all for an Assault 4 conviction.

    I checked my criminal record online with the WSP and it shows I have no convictions not even that assault 4. I am not even a nuttcase, yet. I don't like being firearms disabled.



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    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    his address was listed on police reports as not mine. police and his testimony was that he was not any Domestic relation.

    too hot today.

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    NotSteve wrote:
    The assault 4 conviction was for pushing a male 'freind'. It was in my house where I was helping him to leave. He was taking xanax and 100proof vodka the night before and was tore up, along with my living room. I was doing him a favor i thought by letting im sleep some of it off. The next morning I wanted him to leave witch wasn't too easy because he was still hammered. I showed him the door.

    What were you "taking" the night before? Same, or anything similar?

    "Taking" anything in the morning?

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    NotSteve wrote:
    SNIP He was never a roommate, living mate, family, lover, or anything but a pos.
    OK.

    Google the Lautenberg Amendment. Compare your situation to the exact types of persons listed in the language of the amendment.

    For the moment it doesn't sound like a valid DV accusation.

    It might be time to get a lawyer. Or, get some assistance on whether you can represent yourself before a court to force the government to comply.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I was just drinking a few beers and playing the computer, I didn't notice he had brougt vodka until he was falling over things.
    I had noting to drink the next morning if I had wanted to because he finished off my beer in the night.

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    Just venting? Looking for help with a solution?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I was in a very similar situation last summer. It was what brought me to this board too.

    1) Get everything in writing. Demand the copy of the record of the conviction. In my case, I had a few felony arrests (not convictions) in the NCIC. These don't show up on WSP. The girl at the desk wasn't read up on the difference.
    2) Demand that everything they do or say be justified by law. Many tend to just pretend they know, and most people believe them. Ask what proof there is that it was a DV, demand in writing.
    3) Take notes of everything either of you do, the date, who you speak with, etc. especially the grounds given for denial. You'll need this if you go to court.
    4) Try to talk to the same people each time, or directly in their chain of command.

    What I did was (after the 30 days had elapsed, and another 30 of back-and-forth) write a five page letter, laying out exact statutes, debunking the justifications for denial, a couple case citations just for effect, and threatening to file a Writ of Mandamus. I'll PM you it, and forgive the typos.

    It turned out that one of my non-conviction records (previously a conviction record) was accidentally not sealed by the WSP, and that was what they were using, but didn't tell me. I talked to the WSP, got that cleared up, and convinced the PD to run me again, and that I was eligible.

    The last step is to file a petition for a Writ of Mandamus, but you have to do everything in your power to resolve the situation before you will be granted one. I'd be careful to read up on EVERYTHING before you go up against KC attorneys though. They're better lawyers than you.

    Another test, although risky, is try to buy a handgun. If the FBI lets you get it, then you know for sure. Get the NICS transaction number, call the NICS and talk to them if that would make you even more sure, and then take that number into the police to prove that you passed the NICS checks.

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    I am posting a rough copy of the letter I sent to the Sheriff. This is from last week. I am awaiting for a reply. I am not a Lawer so anyone who uses any part of this should make sure I have not made errors of law. This is my final effort to avoid involving the courts and retaining an attorney. I will try to update the status of my situation as it progresses. I have a feeling that if am forced to hire a lawer I will be instructed to ****.

    XXXXXXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXXXXXX
    XXXXXX XX XXXX
    XXXXXXXXXXX




    August XX, 2009




    Sheriff XXX XXXX
    XXX XXXXX XXXXX, XXXX XX XXXXXXXXXX

    XXXXXXX, WA XXXXX
    (206) XXX-XXXX




    RE: Improper Denial of Concealed Pistols License

    Dear Sheriff Xxxx:

    More than 60 days have passed since my application for a Concealed Pistol License was submitted to the King County Sheriff's Office. Washington State law RCW 9.41.070 (1) states that if that I am not lawfully precluded from possession of a firearm or otherwise ineligible for issuance of a Concealed Pistol License, the sheriff shall within 30 days issue a license to carry a concealed pistol, a right guaranteed by the State of Washington. The Code employs the phrases “shall issue” and “shall not be denied.” This is not a discretionary duty. RCW 9.41.070 (1)(a-g) states all possible causes for denial of my right to bear arms. I do not fall into any of these categories.


    In my criminal record there is an assault 4 conviction (KCDC Case No. XXXXXXXXX) that is being improperly considered a crime of domestic violence to deny my CPL. I was not charged, prosecuted, convicted or accused of domestic violence in this case.


    I sent a copy of the Order of Judgment and Sentence (attached) to the Records and Data Units to show the conviction was assault 4. Not domestic violence assault 4. I spoke with XXXXXXXX XXXXX but I was told I was being denied for DV even tough they knew my conviction was regular assault 4. Information that the victim was a household member or roommate is False. There was no domestic relationship whatsoever.


    The first page of the court docket (attached) and the charging papers (attached) also confirm this was never domestic violence.


    RCW 10.99.040
    (1) Because of the serious nature of domestic violence, the court in domestic violence actions: (d) Shall identify by any reasonable means on docket sheets those criminal actions arising from acts of domestic violence.
    1. The docket in this case has a column named DV with "NO" marked next to each charge. A "YES" would indicate domestic violence.


    from the Washington Association of Prosecuting Attorneys
    Prosecutor's Domestic Violence Handbook
    www.waprosecutors.org/MANUALS/DV/dvmain.html
    "DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
    Domestic violence is a pattern of assaultive and coercive behaviors, including physical, sexual, and psychological attacks, as well as economic coercion, that adults or adolescents use against their intimate partners
    A. Relationship Context
    Domestic violence occurs in adult or adolescent intimate relationships where the perpetrator and the victim are currently or have been previously dating, cohabiting, married or divorced. They may be heterosexual, gay, or lesbian. They may have children in common or not. The relationships may be of a long or short duration.
    1. There was no intimate relation.

    RCW 26.50.010(2) "Family or household members" means spouses, domestic partners, former spouses, former domestic partners, persons who have a child in common regardless of whether they have been married or have lived together at any time, adult persons related by blood or marriage, adult persons who are presently residing together or who have resided together in the past, persons sixteen years of age or older who are presently residing together or who have resided together in the past and who have or have had a dating relationship, persons sixteen years of age or older with whom a person sixteen years of age or older has or has had a dating relationship, and persons who have a biological or legal parent-child relationship, including stepparents and stepchildren and grandparents and grandchildren
    Merriam-Webster defines reside: to dwell permanently or continuously : occupy a place as one's legal domicile
    1. We never resided together. He was no more than a visitor in my home. He is not family and was never a household member or roommate. .


    I would guess that there would at least need to be a preponderance of evidence -- (lowest level of proof) to establish that a domestic relationship existed. No evidence was presented to support a relationship.
    1. Testimony of prosecution witness/'victim' XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXX from X/XX/200X (attached) He was asked by the prosecutor "Were you living with the Defendant at any point?" and answered "No." Mr. XXXXXX stated that at that time he was living at his parents house.
    2. The fact that I was not charged with DV is also evidence that there was no qualifying DV relationship.
    3. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


    I hope that this letter has cleared up the mistake with my record. I support law enforcement and the law. If someone has the opinion that I am dangerous, unsafe or angry they are wrong. I am a member of the NRA and their Institute for Legislative Action NRA-ILA. I am certified by the State of Washington to be safe with firearms with Hunter Education. I am sorry for what I have done. There will be no future problems from me. It would be unfair and dishonest for someone to persist in misrepresenting my conviction. Taking away a persons constitutional rights is a serious matter. A person should be offered an opportunity for a defense. There is a reason why DV is an enhancement to a crime.


    If the refusal to comply continues, I will have no choice for remedy but to seek a Writ of Mandamus pursuant to RCW 9.41.0975(2)(a) and RCW 7.16.
    Mandamus is appropriate to compel a government official or entity ‘to comply with law when the claim is clear and there is a duty to act’” Euster v. City of Spokane, 118 Wash.App 383, 76 P.3d 741 (2003) citing In re Pers. Restraint of Dyet, 143 Wn.2d 384, 398, 20 P.3d 907 (2001).
    1) There is a non-discretionary duty enjoined to the office to act, and the office fails to do so,
    2) There is an absence of a plain, speedy, adequate remedy at law,
    3) I am beneficially interested in the issuance of the License, that I may exercise my Constitutionally-protected right to bear arms.

    RCW 9.41.0975(1) The state, local governmental entities, any public or private agency, and the employees of any state or local governmental entity or public or private agency, acting in good faith, are immune from liability:
    RCW 9.41.0975 provides that an applicant may seek said Writ upon wrongful refusal of a Concealed Pistol License [(2)(a),] and that: A person granted a writ of mandamus under this subsection (2) shall be awarded reasonable attorneys' fees and costs.


    I have consulted attorneys regarding this matter. We have the transcripts of the trial. There are witnesses able to testify to the fact that there was never any domestic relationship. If this is not resolved by this letter the issue will be taken into the court. The court will rule in my favor and the taxpayers of King County will get the bill. The court will be required to provide an expedited hearing. The NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund may support my case. Litigation they are involved with can be found online http://XXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX


    I would like to avoid court and would greatly appreciate if the KCSO could act on the following.


    1. Immediately Issue the CPL
    2. Check the FBI NCIC to be sure my Criminal History does not show a DV and to correct it if it does. Make sure the DOL record is correct. Let me know the status in writing.
    3. Confirm in a letter for my records in case this ever comes up again that this assault 4 conviction does not involve DV
    4. Verify that I am not restricted from purchasing or owning a firearm in writing.
    5. If I am denied, why? If I am denied for DV, what was the relationship to Mr. Xxxxxx? based on what evidence? what standard of proof was that based upon?



    Sincerely,








    XXXXXX XXXX


    Enclosures 5








  14. #14
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    thats a lot of threats in one letter

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    I found the other day some case law from the 60's that clarified that it was in fact mandatory to issue them. I'll try to look it up.

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    And to get legalistic, if the police do not have a record showing that the conviction was DV, then they CANNOT deny you. Even if they come up with videos showing that he was your live-in lover, because the conviction was not DV, it's useless. They must issue.

    I'm still looking for the case that mandated issuing. I found it on a database at the library, which unfortunately is closed.

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