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Stand down?!

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
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2,585
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Stanislaus County, California, USA
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bad_ace wrote:
and I'll continue to so until violence is used to stop me.
Don't give them any ideas!

Seriously though, CalGuns Foundation has been very civil about it. The situation has been muddied by rabble rousers on CalGuns.Net, but the "right people" I think have done nothing but try to convince us to see it their way.

I've backed off significantly on my open carry activities, but mostly for personal reasons.

I agree it's a time to be cautious, but I think they exaggerate the risk.
 

Old Timer

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
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As I said over on CalGuns


I think we can all agree that the RKBA includes open, loaded, carry as well as concealed carry. It is difficult to see how one right can be exercised while the other right is denied when they are two aspects of the same right!

However, what we seem to disagree on is the means of attaining the end. Some believe open carry will be the catalyst to bring about our goals and others believe the opposite. What we must bear in mind is that open carriers are not the enemy. They are our comrades, literally, in arms. Let's fight the right foe! If we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves somebody might think we are Irish!


We are all in this together. We may differ in our means of attaining the goal, but we all share the same goal.

I can understand the lawyer's hesitancy regarding UOC with so muchlitigation already in play. The last thing they want is for any of us to poison the well.

On the other hand, as has often been said on these forums, "a right not exercised is a right lost."

Personally I believe every American should be able to own and carry anygun or other armamenthe/she chooses so long as he/she is not a convicted felon, adjudicated mental defective, or a Democrat (okay, okay, I don't really mean that last part).

Personally I don't open carry. But I don't have to. I am one of the few who has a California CCW license. However, I support every Americans right under our Constitution, even those I disagree with! I support the right of the liberal left wing media to spread their vomitus. I support the right of cults to preach their heresy. I support the right of every American to own and carry guns. I support the right of every American to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

The difference I have with so many other people is that they expect me to support their rights (which I do) but they refuse to support mine. You see, I believe they are only rights if they apply to all of us. Otherwise it is a mere privilege. And privileges are subject to being taken away.
 

N6ATF

Banned
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
1,401
Location
San Diego County, CA, California, USA
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Even if all gun owners died, they'd still infringe on the corpses.

The legislature doesn't need any reason or event to infringe on the 2A and all law-abiding citizens, in favor of criminals. Their sole reason for existing is to support their fellow criminals. Treason.

The school zones were expanded to 1500 feet BEFORE the first SD UOC meet. They just forgot to add the words "Gun Free" to it.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=204874

Government traitors (and racists, in the case of the Mulford Act) are to blame, not law-abiding citizens.
 

stuckinchico

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
506
Location
Stevenson, Alabama, United States
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Well i have been having to stow my weapon alot due to work but hehe that doesnt mean i left it at home or in a vehicle (as i have none) I will go home at the end of my journeys no one will stop me unless they are 11 44 too
 

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
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N6ATF wrote:
Even if all gun owners died, they'd still infringe on the corpses.

I plan on being buried with my loaded Ruger and there's no doubt that would be true. I'd still have the last laugh because if they wanted it...

wait for it ...

wait for it ...



They'd have to pry it from my cold, dead, hands...;)
 

Sons of Liberty

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
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638
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Riverside, California, USA
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I just read the opening of a thread started by Gene last week. Now he is advising not to UOC until June of 2010, maybe??!! :banghead:

First it was, wait until the CA legislature gets out of session and now its wait until June 2010, maybe? I think that is pretty unreasonable!!!!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=207777

I honestly do not know where these guys are coming from?!

If it smells like dirty, rotten, smelly fish...it is!
 

cato

Newbie
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
2,338
Location
California, USA
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Battlefields changes. You know ebb and flow, flanks advancing, falling back, reserves being sent in etc... We're having to fall back a little legally as Nordyke has been suspendeddue tothe coming9th Circuit en banc hearing.

As of April 20th there was a 2nd A. Right we all could claim legally and even though it was not defined any new legislation could have likely been tied up with injunctions. Now there isn't any right to legally claim. What the 9th giveth the 9th taketh away :cuss:.



I would advise against solo carry and extreme caution with extensive planning for allgroup events. June 2010 is the likely date of a decision from SCOTUS (if they take a 2nd A incorporation case next term - an 87 3/4% chance;))
 

cato

Newbie
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Oct 29, 2006
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California, USA
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Sons of Liberty wrote:
I honestly do not know where these guys are coming from?!

They come from being in the fight for years placing livelihoods, fortunes, and sacred honor on the line. They've saved lawful gun owners (including UOCers) from aggressive DAs and multiple felonies and the loss of Rights. THEY (us) have raised nearly $100,000+ in the lastcouple years for various legal fights. THEY ARE suing the State of CA and the District of Columbia in Federal Court.

They've financially and legallybacked several UOCers which resulted in NO charges being filed in those cases.

THEY are individuals here, on calguns.net, and those who started The Calguns Foundation. THEY are Civil Rights litigants Alan Gura (victor of Heller v DC), Don Kilmer and Don Kates of Nordyke v King (who have worked nearly for free for a decade on YOUR behalf). THEY are the Second Amendment Foundation, NRA, CRPA, and the Madison Society.

THEY ARE US speaking openly about strategies which would be better kept secret. But to keep our coalition united these things must be spoken about openly.

UOC or LOC will, IMO, play a strategic part in securing our Rights. But we are akin to a specialty or elite unit suited for a selected strategic target at a selected time. The bravery exhibited here with the risks takento personal liberty and personal fortunes tell me that I'm in the best of company. You ALL exhibit the characteristics of what makesour American Republic the best place on Earth. I salute ALL of you for being a part of this.

I've been here since the beginning when it was only Condition Three carrying and me advising. It is my considered opinion that with the way the political and legal cardsare being dealt that it is not yet the time for our unit to play it's part in this battle.

What we want to avoid is a Dunkirk. New legislation that can't be stopped by injunctions or suits when there is no legal Right established is just that.

Waiting (again:X)for incorporation is wise. We've suffered for 70 years with the fall out from Miller and 40 years from the Mulford Act (12031) so lets be wise and pick our battles on the ground of our choosing with conditions favorable to the Self Defense Human Rights Victory we all seek.
 

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Oregon
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Sons of Liberty wrote:
I just read the opening of a thread started by Gene last week. Now he is advising not to UOC until June of 2010, maybe??!! :banghead:

First it was, wait until the CA legislature gets out of session and now its wait until June 2010, maybe? I think that is pretty unreasonable!!!!
Put yourself in Gene's shoes. You're the head of the main group fighting for gun rights in California. Your goal is to free California citizens from the all restrictions placed on gun owners. Right now you've suffered a temporary setback which means your attack must be delayed for six months. What do you advise people to do?

I think it's pretty fair to say that Gene is doing a great job trying to accomplish goals that we can all get behind. He could tell people to go out an open carry and if we somehow fail to get shall issue ccw, then no big deal. Except he's trying to win it ALL. Getting everything but shall issue ccw isn't winning to him. That's failing for all Californians. He's just trying to take his time and do everything the right way, in order to maximize our percentages and get all of our rights back.

Naturally nobody has to listen to Gene, and he knows that. He cannot order anybody to not open carry, but he knows he can't influence those who won't listen to him anyway. He's only trying to influence the ones who will listen to him. So do whatever you'd like to.
 

cato

Newbie
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Oct 29, 2006
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California, USA
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And for those who missed it:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2824283&postcount=125



I've explained before that there is a reason for the order of operations here.

We can get shall issue CCW if we attack that first (and say some things in that attack that OC proponents will not like - I'm warning you.) Once we secure shall issue CCW there is a specific way in which we can likely decriminalize LOC as well. I too don't want to be in the Texas situation of being cited for OC when I have a CCW too. That will also mean we'll head after GFSZ's too but those are certainly not the first cases you want to bring.

If we went in the other order, then I worry simply that LOC will end up being prohibited by every mall and restaurant in California. Just look at what is happening in Arizona and Tenessee for goodness sake. Bars are posting "no guns" signs even after both states started allowing CCW carriers in. Don't for a moment think that if LOC is our only choice, that we will not suffer the effect of having gun haters outnumber us 3:2 and have that make the private sector make it virtually impossible to carry.

LCAV and Brady would enjoy us attempting to get the equivalent ruling to Pruneyard on guns. Here's a hint - it will not happen. We'll have a mooted right to LOC - basically useless...

I've open carried before in places where it is legal and the public support ratio is more like 1:1. It is nicer and easier than CCW. Personally I want to walk down Market Street in San Francisco with an AR on my back and a Sig on my hip and a s**t eating grin on my face.

Do this in reverse, and we'll all hang separately. Remember that it took 100 years after the end of slavery for black people to stop being lynched. The patience we're asking for is very, very short in comparison. Also note that I'm certainly not saying no UOC. I'm saying no lone UOC and that it would be far, far better politically if the group UOC wasn't a bunch of normal white males.

-Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman
Chairman, The Calguns Foundation - Member, CRPA Board of Directors
DONATE NOW
to support the rights of California gun owners.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization.


[align=center]"The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
rolleyes.gif

Ultima Ratio Liberarum[/align]
 

JC

Regular Member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
12
Location
San Diego, California, USA
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So......just to be clear. The UOC public is being asked, by Calguns to voluntarily waiveour 2A rights until such time that a court either rules for incorporation definitively or a shall issue state occurs. Either of which, might or might not happen.



What is/was the motto of the Opencarry.org group again?

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller?
 

camsoup

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
167
Location
Red Bluff, California, USA
imported post

cato wrote:
Sons of Liberty wrote:
I honestly do not know where these guys are coming from?!



They've financially and legallybacked several UOCers which resulted in NO charges being filed in those cases.
And now THEY have decided that financially and legally backing UOC is not worth it to them at this time. And then THEY ask us all to stop UOC for the time being because THEY have different views/ideas of achieving results. Not only that put it seems that THEY only want to use UOC to reform CCW laws.

I for one will continue to UOC or LOC where allowed. No one asked CA_Libertarian to stop when he first posted about UOC, no one asked anyone that began to OC to stop until THEY decided it wasnt worth spending money on UOC cases.

Dont get me wrong, CGF has done great things for Gun laws in CA....but should we all follow their advice so blindly that we give up the exercising of the right that some of us have chosen to exercise.

Hows the saying go? " A right unexercised is a right lost"?

That's right we haven't lost it for good...only until June 2010 :shock:


Look how far the OC movement has come in this state, how did we get there?? People willing to exercise their right to OC on the streets, officers receiving new training, new memos, new bulletins issued, officers interacting with OC'ers in the real world.
 

camsoup

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
167
Location
Red Bluff, California, USA
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bigtoe416 wrote:
Sons of Liberty wrote:
I just read the opening of a thread started by Gene last week. Now he is advising not to UOC until June of 2010, maybe??!! :banghead:

First it was, wait until the CA legislature gets out of session and now its wait until June 2010, maybe? I think that is pretty unreasonable!!!!
Put yourself in Gene's shoes. You're the head of the main group fighting for gun rights in California. Your goal is to free California citizens from the all restrictions placed on gun owners. Right now you've suffered a temporary setback which means your attack must be delayed for six months. What do you advise people to do?

I think it's pretty fair to say that Gene is doing a great job trying to accomplish goals that we can all get behind. He could tell people to go out an open carry and if we somehow fail to get shall issue ccw, then no big deal. Except he's trying to win it ALL. Getting everything but shall issue ccw isn't winning to him. That's failing for all Californians. He's just trying to take his time and do everything the right way, in order to maximize our percentages and get all of our rights back.

Naturally nobody has to listen to Gene, and he knows that. He cannot order anybody to not open carry, but he knows he can't influence those who won't listen to him anyway. He's only trying to influence the ones who will listen to him. So do whatever you'd like to.
Not all of us OC to try to get Shall issue CCW. Even if this state becomes Shall issue I will not get a CCW. Why should I have to ask for permission, and be given a permit to exercise a right??
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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the best OC in california is loaded OC in unincorporated areas - of course, you have to check to see if the County banned shooting there - the reason is that then there isno police e-check power to seize you for the load checks :)
 

MudCamper

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
709
Location
Sebastopol, California, USA
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camsoup wrote:
it seems that THEY only want to use UOC to reform CCW laws.
You hit the nail squarely on the head there.

Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that. Some want CCW, some want LOC. Some (like me) want both. But many of the OC naysayers are CCW-privilege eletists.
 
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