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Thread: Purchase more than one handgun within any 30-day period

  1. #1
    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Has anyone here ever gone through the "enhanced background check" and completed the required form(s) in order to purchase more than one handgun per month?

    § 18.2-308.2:2(P)(1)

    1. Purchases in excess of one handgun within a 30-day period may be made upon completion of an enhanced background check, as described herein, by special application to the Department of State Police listing the number and type of handguns to be purchased and transferred for lawful business or personal use, in a collector series, for collections, as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes. Such applications shall be signed under oath by the applicant on forms provided by the Department of State Police, shall state the purpose for the purchase above the limit, and shall require satisfactory proof of residency and identity. Such application shall be in addition to the firearms sales report required by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). The Superintendent of State Police shall promulgate regulations, pursuant to the Administrative Process Act (§ 2.2-4000 et seq.), for the implementation of an application process for purchases of handguns above the limit.

    Upon being satisfied that these requirements have been met, the Department of State Police shall forthwith issue to the applicant a nontransferable certificate, which shall be valid for seven days from the date of issue. The certificate shall be surrendered to the dealer by the prospective purchaser prior to the consummation of such sale and shall be kept on file at the dealer's place of business for inspection as provided in § 54.1-4201 for a period of not less than two years. Upon request of any local law-enforcement agency, and pursuant to its regulations, the Department of State Police may certify such local law-enforcement agency to serve as its agent to receive applications and, upon authorization by the Department of State Police, issue certificates forthwith pursuant to this subsection. Applications and certificates issued under this subsection shall be maintained as records as provided in subdivision B 3. The Department of State Police shall make available to local law-enforcement agencies all records concerning certificates issued pursuant to this subsection and all records provided for in subdivision B 3.
    I'm not prohibited from purchasing one handgun per month. Since the law has come up recently as an issue in the Governor's race, I was wondering what the process is like, how long it takes, and whether the Superintendent of State Police has the authority to set requirements or limitations beyond those laid out in § 18.2-308.2:2(P)(1). For example, is there any limit to how many applications a person may make in a set time period; are there any other limitations to quantity and type of handguns; is there a fee?

    I wonder if the law really has any practical effect on limiting people to one handgun per month. If all one has to do is fill out an application and the certificate is furnished to the successful applicant expeditiously; then the law would have no effect on limiting people to one handgun per month if they desired to purchase many. Perhaps the only beneficiaries are law-enforcement agencies investigating straw purchases because there are long-term records on file of multiple-handgun purchases. And then I wonder if any of those records have been successfully used to prosecute straw purchases.

    Naturally, I oppose the law no matter what the answers are to my questions. It hurts dealers, buyers, and in those cases where the enhanced background check is used it wastes our tax money and other government resources.

    Another question comes to mind. If the law is repealed, will there be an even higher surge in handgun purchases? Will the handgun I want to purchase be even harder to find, more expensive, and longer to wait if this law is repealed?

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    virginiatuck wrote:
    Another question comes to mind. If the law is repealed, will there be an even higher surge in handgun purchases? Will the handgun I want to purchase be even harder to find, more expensive, and longer to wait if this law is repealed?
    Doubtful is the answer to both questions. Very doubtful. Demand won't change for guns as a result of the one-per-month limitation's revocation.

    It's a poorly conceptualized law. I empathize with those in Virginia who have to labor under it. I hope it gets abolished.




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    Given that CHP holders are exempt, I always just figured that most people buying that many handguns probably already had a CHP anyhow...



    P. Except as provided in subdivisions 1, 2, and 3 of this subsection, it shall be unlawful for any person who is not a licensed firearms dealer to purchase more than one handgun within any 30-day period. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    ...

    2. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to:

    ...

    h. A person who holds a valid Virginia permit to carry a concealed handgun;

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I've never seen nor ever heard of anyone actually bothering to get one. I suspect most people who are serious collectors just get a CHP.

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    longwatch wrote:
    I've never seen nor ever heard of anyone actually bothering to get one. I suspect most people who are serious collectors just get a CHP.
    Aren't you one of the guys who promotes the law:

    "Buy one handgun a month! Its the law!"

    Of course, you'll sell long arms, too. Won't you? You know you would. I've heard you squeezing in plugs for them in all kinds of conversations.

    :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
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    Who ever came up with ONE that's damn few.



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    Citizen wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    I've never seen nor ever heard of anyone actually bothering to get one. I suspect most people who are serious collectors just get a CHP.
    Aren't you one of the guys who promotes the law:

    "Buy one handgun a month! Its the law!"

    Of course, you'll sell long arms, too. Won't you? You know you would. I've heard you squeezing in plugs for them in all kinds of conversations.

    :P
    I believe he promotes the law for a different reason. If you buy more than one handgun at one dealer within 5 business days of each other, the dealer is required to fax a form full of your personal information and gun info (including make model s/n) straight to the ATF and state police.

    Avoid this by waiting 5 days between purchases, or buy one handgun from several dealers instead of all at just one

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    nova wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    I've never seen nor ever heard of anyone actually bothering to get one. I suspect most people who are serious collectors just get a CHP.
    Aren't you one of the guys who promotes the law:

    "Buy one handgun a month! Its the law!"

    Of course, you'll sell long arms, too. Won't you? You know you would. I've heard you squeezing in plugs for them in all kinds of conversations.

    :P
    I believe he promotes the law for a different reason. If you buy more than one handgun at one dealer within 5 business days of each other, the dealer is required to fax a form full of your personal information and gun info (including make model s/n) straight to the ATF and state police.

    Avoid this by waiting 5 days between purchases, or buy one handgun from several dealers instead of all at just one
    I found this out the hard way.

    After I got my CHP, I bought two guns from Trader Jerry's at a gun show.

    Later I bought two from CDNN and had them shipped to my FFL. It was only then that I noticed a form that I had never seen before being filled out. When he told me what it was for, I :what:.

    Still kicking myself for having done this.

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    Glock27Bill wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    I've never seen nor ever heard of anyone actually bothering to get one. I suspect most people who are serious collectors just get a CHP.
    Aren't you one of the guys who promotes the law:

    "Buy one handgun a month! Its the law!"

    Of course, you'll sell long arms, too. Won't you? You know you would. I've heard you squeezing in plugs for them in all kinds of conversations.

    :P
    I believe he promotes the law for a different reason. If you buy more than one handgun at one dealer within 5 business days of each other, the dealer is required to fax a form full of your personal information and gun info (including make model s/n) straight to the ATF and state police.

    Avoid this by waiting 5 days between purchases, or buy one handgun from several dealers instead of all at just one
    I found this out the hard way.

    After I got my CHP, I bought two guns from Trader Jerry's at a gun show.

    Later I bought two from CDNN and had them shipped to my FFL. It was only then that I noticed a form that I had never seen before being filled out. When he told me what it was for, I :what:.

    Still kicking myself for having done this.
    I only found out last year. Luckly I still have another 9 months until it affects me.
    (Like I'd have the money anyways )

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    "handguns to be purchased and transferred for lawful business or personal use,
    1. in a collector series,
    2. for collections,
    3. as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes. "
    It seems to me that this law is clearly for buying guns that are part of a set meant to stay together as one unit.

    If it is not going to be possible for a buyer to wait several months to buy each gun in a set individually.

    They can receive a special permit to get them all. Obviously, an estate sale is not going to be around for several months for you to buy each gun. They need to sell them all and in a very short period of time. Normally an estate sale will last about a week.

    But this is a good law to know about. Thanks!!

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    "handguns to be purchased and transferred for lawful business or personal use,
    1. in a collector series,
    2. for collections,
    3. as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes. "
    It seems to me that this law is clearly for buying guns that are part of a set meant to stay together as one unit.

    If it is not going to be possible for a buyer to wait several months to buy each gun in a set individually.

    They can receive a special permit to get them all. Obviously, an estate sale is not going to be around for several months for you to buy each gun. They need to sell them all and in a very short period of time. Normally an estate sale will last about a week.

    But this is a good law to know about. Thanks!!
    It's written and read like this:

    ...handguns to be purchased and transferred:
    1) for lawful business or personal use,
    2) in a collector series,
    3) for collections,
    4) as a bulk purchase from estate sales,
    5) and for similar purposes.




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    virginiatuck wrote:
    It's written and read like this:

    ...handguns to be purchased and transferred:
    1) for lawful business or personal use,
    2) in a collector series,
    3) for collections,
    4) as a bulk purchase from estate sales,
    5) and for similar purposes.


    I broke it downenough to highlight my point.

    #1 here is not really needed. It does not add to why the permit would be issued.

    Youadded additional punctuationon your own toenable you make a fifth bullet. This was improper and done to skew the law.

    #4 and #5 are supposed to be in the same bullet. Bulk purchases is in relation to estate sales and similarsales.



    So I have to submit that you are wrong in your interpretation.



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    I've done this before, and its not as bad as it sounds. It took about a week for me to get approved and besides the whole background check one of the main reasons that they look for to determine approval or denial of the application is "the reason for need of multiple handgun purchase", theres also no fee. i had to do it before i got my CHP and i made a purchase recently and found a great deal on a glock 19 so i needed to be able to purchase another handgun within 30 days. HTH

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    And to answer your other question, you can have one application in at a time but you are able to put the number of handguns you are looking to purchase.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    virginiatuck wrote:
    It's written and read like this:

    ...handguns to be purchased and transferred:
    1) for lawful business or personal use,
    2) in a collector series,
    3) for collections,
    4) as a bulk purchase from estate sales,
    5) and for similar purposes.


    I broke it downenough to highlight my point.

    #1 here is not really needed. It does not add to why the permit would be issued.

    Youadded additional punctuationon your own toenable you make a fifth bullet. This was improper and done to skew the law.

    #4 and #5 are supposed to be in the same bullet. Bulk purchases is in relation to estate sales and similarsales.



    So I have to submit that you are wrong in your interpretation.

    The first element is significant. It says that lawful business or personal use is a valid reason for a multiple-handgun purchase. Why is there a comma following that element if it is not the first element in the list? Would you write "There are, one, two, three, four and five" or would you write "There are one, two, three, four and five?"

    In a list of items the last comma before the last element is optional. It doesn't matter if it's there or not. Eg. "one, two, three, four, and five;" "one, two, three, four and five;" and "one, two, three, four, five" are all grammatically correct and have the same meaning.

    The sentence fragment in question is "for lawful business or personal use, in a collector series, for collections, as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes."

    I don't need to change anything. Take the comma that I put at the end of 4) and it's still a separate element. That sentence right there is plain English and the five bullets I listed are the five elements in the list.

    If the word 'for' were removed from element 5), then one could argue that 4) and 5) would not be separate elements. Eg. "[...] as a bulk purchase from estate sales and similar purposes" could be one element. Eg. "[...] as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes" are two elements in a five element list. Further, if 4) and 5) were intended to be one element it should have been phrased "[...] as a bulk purchase from estate and similar sales." It doesn't say "similar sales" as you say. It says "similar purposes," which further separates it from the preceding element. The last element in the list, "similar purposes," is a catch-all to include any purposes similar to the preceding four elements.

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    virginiatuck wrote:
    The first element is significant. It says that lawful business or personal use is a valid reason for a multiple-handgun purchase. Why is there a comma following that element if it is not the first element in the list? Would you write "There are, one, two, three, four and five" or would you write "There are one, two, three, four and five?"

    In a list of items the last comma before the last element is optional. It doesn't matter if it's there or not. Eg. "one, two, three, four, and five;" "one, two, three, four and five;" and "one, two, three, four, five" are all grammatically correct and have the same meaning.

    The sentence fragment in question is "for lawful business or personal use, in a collector series, for collections, as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes."

    I don't need to change anything. Take the comma that I put at the end of 4) and it's still a separate element. That sentence right there is plain English and the five bullets I listed are the five elements in the list.

    If the word 'for' were removed from element 5), then one could argue that 4) and 5) would not be separate elements. Eg. "[...] as a bulk purchase from estate sales and similar purposes" could be one element. Eg. "[...] as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes" are two elements in a five element list. Further, if 4) and 5) were intended to be one element it should have been phrased "[...] as a bulk purchase from estate and similar sales." It doesn't say "similar sales" as you say. It says "similar purposes," which further separates it from the preceding element. The last element in the list, "similar purposes," is a catch-all to include any purposes similar to the preceding four elements.
    Then why did you add something that was not there originally in the code? As you said... it was "optional"

    No.. your rule does not always apply as you suggest. You are reading into it the way you need it to read because you want to circumvent the one gun a month for any gun purchase.Not everything written is 1,2,3,4, and 5.

    #1 The manis 6 feet tall, 180 pounds, has a mustache, brown eyes and hair.

    #2 The manis 6 feet tall, 180 pounds, has a mustache, brown eyes, and hair.

    In the firstline it indicates he was brown eyes and brown hair.In thesecond line he has brown eyes and he also has hair. Adding a comma negates the known value of it being brown.

    So there is no optional comma here just because there were so many commas used previously.


    as a bulk purchase
    from estate sales and for similar purposes.


    Clearly.... it identifies similar purposes as being something withsalesthatinvolve a bulk purchase. If not anestate sale... maybe a salefrom a dealeror seller that has a gun set that cannot be sold separately.

    It does NOT mean you can go to the gun store and buy five brand new Glocks as a bulk salethat have no significant need to be sold as one unit.


    The state added "similar purposes"to allow roomto maneuver. It is not so you can exploit the one gun a month law.






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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    logistixz wrote:
    I've done this before, and its not as bad as it sounds. It took about a week for me to get approved and besides the whole background check one of the main reasons that they look for to determine approval or denial of the application is "the reason for need of multiple handgun purchase", theres also no fee. i had to do it before i got my CHP and i made a purchase recently and found a great deal on a glock 19 so i needed to be able to purchase another handgun within 30 days. HTH
    LEO229, it seems that "a great deal" was good enough reason for logistixz to be approved.

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    I may have lucked out in my situation, but I will add that someone from richmond did contact me to get a clearer answer onto what my situation was for needing to purchase another handgun within 30 days.

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    virginiatuck wrote:
    logistixz wrote:
    I've done this before, and its not as bad as it sounds. It took about a week for me to get approved and besides the whole background check one of the main reasons that they look for to determine approval or denial of the application is "the reason for need of multiple handgun purchase", theres also no fee. i had to do it before i got my CHP and i made a purchase recently and found a great deal on a glock 19 so i needed to be able to purchase another handgun within 30 days. HTH
    LEO229, it seems that "a great deal" was good enough reason for logistixz to be approved.
    Seems it was not so cut and dry in his case.

    They approved it outside the requirements of thelaw.

    As long as others are aware I took issue with your interpretation... they can review it and decide for themselves.

    Nice debating this issue with you. :P

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    i dont think it was outside of the requirements of the law, when i was speaking to the officer at the local state police office he didnt seem surprised about my request or anything

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    virginiatuck wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    "handguns to be purchased and transferred for lawful business or personal use,
    1. in a collector series,
    2. for collections,
    3. as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes. "
    It seems to me that this law is clearly for buying guns that are part of a set meant to stay together as one unit.

    If it is not going to be possible for a buyer to wait several months to buy each gun in a set individually.

    They can receive a special permit to get them all. Obviously, an estate sale is not going to be around for several months for you to buy each gun. They need to sell them all and in a very short period of time. Normally an estate sale will last about a week.

    But this is a good law to know about. Thanks!!
    It's written and read like this:

    ...handguns to be purchased and transferred:
    1) for lawful business or personal use,
    2) in a collector series,
    3) for collections,
    4) as a bulk purchase from estate sales,
    5) and for similar purposes.


    Sorry guys where is it written. I didn't see it and would like read it for myself. :?
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    1. Purchases in excess of one handgun within a 30-day period may be made upon completion of an enhanced background check, as described herein, by special application to the Department of State Police listing the number and type of handguns to be purchased and transferred for lawful business or personal use, in a collector series, for collections, as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes. Such applications shall be signed under oath by the applicant on forms provided by the Department of State Police, shall state the purpose for the purchase above the limit, and shall require satisfactory proof of residency and identity. Such application shall be in addition to the firearms sales report required by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). The Superintendent of State Police shall promulgate regulations, pursuant to the Administrative Process Act (§ 2.2-4000 et seq.), for the implementation of an application process for purchases of handguns above the limit.

  23. #23
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    logistixz wrote:
    1. Purchases in excess of one handgun within a 30-day period may be made upon completion of an enhanced background check, as described herein, by special application to the Department of State Police listing the number and type of handguns to be purchased and transferred for lawful business or personal use, in a collector series, for collections, as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes. Such applications shall be signed under oath by the applicant on forms provided by the Department of State Police, shall state the purpose for the purchase above the limit, and shall require satisfactory proof of residency and identity. Such application shall be in addition to the firearms sales report required by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). The Superintendent of State Police shall promulgate regulations, pursuant to the Administrative Process Act (§ 2.2-4000 et seq.), for the implementation of an application process for purchases of handguns above the limit.
    Thanks logistixz I read the section quick and missed it.

    Been out of school a long time but as I recall the "and" is used in a comma separated list to designate the last item of the list with out the comma.

    Therefore

    1) for lawful business or personal use,
    2) in a collector series,
    3) for collections,
    4) as a bulk purchase from estate sales,
    5) and for similar purposes.


    For similar purposes would be related to all of the first four. google-fu not working good now but will research when I have time.
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  24. #24
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    Wolf_shadow wrote:
    Thanks logistixz I read the section quick and missed it.

    Been out of school a long time but as I recall the "and" is used in a comma separated list to designate the last item of the list with out the comma.

    Therefore

    1) for lawful business or personal use,
    2) in a collector series,
    3) for collections,
    4) as a bulk purchase from estate sales,
    5) and for similar purposes.


    For similar purposes would be related to all of the first four. google-fu not working good now but will research when I have time.

    Sorry, it seems that you are also wrong. :?

    The comma is not usedon purpose and for a reason. Please refer to the examples below for further clarification on why.

    The last two are meant to be held together to mean you are needing to buy something that comes in quantity. Not one today and one next week because it is a good sale.

    Otherwise.. what would a "similar purpose" be referencing?

    Lawfulness? Series? Collection?Estate Sales?

    That could meanyou could buy more than one a month because the purpose wasfor a lawfuluse.



    http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm

    Use a comma to separate the elements in a series (three or more things), including the last two. "He hit the ball, dropped the bat, and ran to first base."

    You may have learned that the comma before the "and" is unnecessary, which is fine if you're in control of things. However, there are situations in which, if you don't use this comma (especially when the list is complex or lengthy), these last two items in the list will try to glom together (like macaroni and cheese).

    Using a comma between all the items in a series, including the last two, avoids this problem. This last comma—the one between the word "and" and the preceding word—is often called the serial comma or the Oxford comma.

    In newspaper writing, incidentally, you will seldom find a serial comma, but that is not necessarily a sign that it should be omitted in academic prose.



    http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp

    Rule 1.[/b]
    To avoid confusion, use commas to separate words and word groups with a series of three or more.

    Example:
    My $10 million estate is to be split among my husband, daughter, son, and nephew. Omitting the comma after son would indicate that the son and nephew would have to split one-third of the estate.





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    wow this thread has turned into an argument on grammar, bottom line is from experience the VSP takes into consideration the reasoningbehind the need to makemultiple purchases of handguns within a 30 dayperiod and decides whether or not to issue a certificate.

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