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Thread: Hand gun retention / weapon malfunction drills for oc

  1. #1
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    Has anyone that is currently open carrying or lobbying for open carry in their statesconsidered practicingany type of handgun retention or weapon malfunction type drills?

    I ask this because in my opinion there a several reason why someone might open carry. Maybe to make a political statement, to preserve their right to bear arms, for personal protection etc. But when making that decision to open carry, maybe some have overlooked a more important underlying issue. The responsibility that comes with making thatdecision to open carry. That issue being your responsibility as a person to protect that firearm and make sure that you have total control over it at all times. As well as maintain that firearm so that if that one situation arises and the only thing you have to count on is your good judgement and the piece of metal strapped to your side. I won't go into any elaborate typesof scenarios here. Just a suggestion, but how about consideringto practice malfunction drills. Also weapon retention techniques that work with your type of holster that you are currently carrying.

    If some don't understand the verbiage or are unfamiliar with some of the terms statedI am using I apologize and will explain. Weapon malfunction drills in the sense of clearing a firearm from a jammed round, poor magazine feed, or other type of malfunction that occures when the weapon misfeeds. When I say handgun retention I am referring to youphysically keepingyour weapon in the holster if you are involved in a struggle, fight, etc.

    Just a thought what do you guys think?

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I've had both types of training, but that was while working as an LEO. I've never heard any OCers discuss actual retention training, but I'm fairly certain most of the folks I've met at our "OC Dinners" are practicioners of hangfire/misfire/failure to fire drills. I've trained my 18 year old OCing daughter in retention and we do LOTS of dry firing/drawing practice at home. We also practice room clearing for both 1 and 2-person situations. We do misfire drills at the range.

    She shoots a .45 cal Glock 21 SF and wears a SERPA. I showed her the articles and complaints about people having AD's with a SERPA and she told me "Dad, those people are just boneheads... Watch this!" She cleared her weapon in a safe direction and inspected the chamber/bore. She holstered an EMPTY weapon and proceeded to draw it very quickly. It was evident to me she even practices a little when I'm not around. She's FAST and her trigger finger ALWAYS indexes along the SLIDE, and NEVER comes near the trigger or trigger guard.

    More people really should practice these drills and talk about it with others. How you react in training is (hopefully) how you will react in a situation. I'm saddened to hear that SERPAS are no longer authorized for match shooting, just because a few boneheads screwed it up for the rest of us.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    I think neither of y'all, OP or the Chief MS, USGC, understand what "shall not be infringed" means. We are legally armed citizens and not necessarily mall-ninja wannabes bragging about ever more exotic CQB training.

    Either we are equal or we are not. good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.

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    another important part of retention training is something that people have talked and talked about. situational awareness. it's quite possibly the most important part of carrying either CC or OC. you can't defend yourself against a threat that you are unaware of.

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    Doug Huffman

    I think maybe you didn't read or understand the post. This post has nothing to do with infringing on any ones right to bear arms, nor is it about cqb. This post is a simple question of weapon retention, and weapon malfunction clearing techniques. If you don't think that you have a need to be a responsible firearm owner then write that. As far as you comment about mall ninjas, that just makes you sound ignorant. I originally wrote this to see if anyone that open carries hasperformed or thought about practicing these techniques. It was a suggestion to make open carriersaware of the responsibilities thatcome withthat decision.

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    A simple solution is a taser hoster, bag guy grabs it, and zap.
    Was asking the taser people at last gun show about modifying one
    for my holster, and blank stares about what it can handle, and leed
    lengths. I just want it to zap the hand that grabs the pistol grip wrong.
    After all government claims they are perfectly safe devices, so they can't
    complain if an individual decides to zap themselves. Active defense is
    always a great safety device.


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    gb:
    You might want to read a few more threads and I think you will find that there are many many discussions on this board about retention and situational awareness!

    Most threads started by new carriers you will find that they are recommended to get a good retention holster, etc etc...

    Many of the discussions come up in 'troll' threads when someone brings up the statistically non existent argument of "What if someone comes up from behind and steals your gun... yadda yadda yadda

    I would venture to say that most of us have done some sort of personal retention training (if nothing more that "Hey honey, see if you can get this gun out of my holster...")

    As for FTF, FTE, etc... Most of us here probably spend more time at the range than than most LEOs (not meant as a bash, just proposed as a fact) and I would again venture to say that most of us have 'snap caps' for each caliber that we own! I know when I am at the range with friends we will often load each others mags and slip in a snap cap somewhere just so that we wont know which pull is going to 'click' instead of 'bang'!

    Hope that this puts your mind at ease some.
    ~Gator

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    Gator 5713



    I am fairly new to this board and have not read many of the posts that you have spoken of. I was just wandering if the open carriers out there had taken these two subjects into consideration. I've been an LEO in TX now for 10+ years and am curious for feed back being that many people in our home state are lobbying for an open carry bill.

    Thank you for your feedback

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    GB:
    I did kind of reference to your 'new' status here on the board, but I hope that you did not take it as an offense, as that is not how it was meant. I understand that your inquiry was good natured. I just meant to guide you on where to watch for those discussions, as well as re-assure you (as a new member of the board) that we aren't a bunch of gun-toting-renegades, as many would like to make us out to be!

    As law enforcement (and apparent fellow firearms enthusiast), I'm sure that you can appreciate my reference to range time! While you are required to go through certain training from time to time (mostly at academy) you are only required to re-qualify once a year, and for many officers, that is the only time that they go to the range!

    Many others (I am guessing that you are included in this group) take the time to keep their skills honed beyond what is required.

    Yes, I am being broad, and stereotypical, which is probably not fair of me, but again, please don't take it as a 'bash' simply as a reference. I have the utmost respect for Law Enforcement, and have cause to deal with them regularly due to my business. I find most to be polite and professional, and often have extended conversations after our 'business' is over. However, I also find that many are ignorant to certain laws, and the finer points of certain laws, particularly where it comes to firearms and private property.

    I just noticed your location, The Woodlands, and that makes us basically neighbors! If you ever have cause to venture towards Aggieland let me know, I would love to meet you for some range time and a cup of coffee!

    ~Gator

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    Gator

    I think your post was well written and no I didn't take offense to the leo statement. Fact is you are right about some officers not having firearms training except for the yearly qualifications required by the state. I am actually hoping if Texas does pass the open carry law that there will be some sort of formal training availablefor open carriers in regards to weapon retention, and malfunction drills. Don't know if that will happenjust wishful thinking on my behalf. I wouldn't be completely opposed to the idea if I knew a formal training was available for those who chose to open carry. Not only from a law enforcement perspective but to ensure that those who want to make the decision to open carry can reap the benefits of having said training. Just might take you up on the shootin and coffee someday thanks again.



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    GB,

    The two questions you have are different.

    1) you asked about practicing "Failure Drills"and 2) was about firearm retention for open carrying.

    The first, "failure drills" is common to either open carry or concealed carry. This is nothing new. There are numerous resources shooters can get and drill away.

    The second about firearm retention is open carry specific.

    What training?

    For us in Washington State we can legally open carry. There is no class or other mandated course.Other states may have different "requirements" but with that said I would say no more mandated courses please.

    Good situational awareness, regardless if you OC or CC.

    Obviously when you OC the BG knows you are carrying. This goes back to benefits and risk of OC. It may benefit you sincemost BG may not want to take on someone that is OC'ing but for that small percentage of BG it may elevate what they will do to get that gun off you. Meaning, if they know you are OC'ing and want your gun - they know it will take considerably more force and an element of surprise to get it.

    So retaining your gun? You may need to look at gear (retention holsers) and tactics to keep your gun and play out scenarios when walking in a crowded area or from behind, etc.
    Young Kim, NRA Endowment Member
    NRA Certified Instructor (pistol)
    NRA Range Safety Officer

    www.shootonthemove.org

    "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport!"
    Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA

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    Good post. A lot of the people on this board have trained themselves for the situations you have described. I am sure that there are a lot that haven't.

    Some people who go to the range to hone their marksmanship perform the same action when a misfire occurs... They look at their weapon, notice a round stove piped, FTF, etc. What do they do? Re-cock and continue firing. What they do not do is think about "What if this was a life or death situation?". In that situation, you do not have the time to think...you have to act.

    As far as retention goes - I believe that most people who carry are constantly aware of their situation. They have a heightened sense of their surroundings. The chances of being disarmed are small. The retention holsters help a lot also. It is still a good idea to conduct training just in case.

    Like I said, good post man.

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    While I agree that anyone carrying a firearm should be 'trained' in its use, so should anyone that speaks! However, no training should be "Required" as that would be a form of 'licensing' or at minimum a 'restriction' and by definition a 'Right' is 'inherent and self evident' and therefor should not be restricted! I believe that firearms safety ought to be a course in school alongside reading writing and arithmetic!
    I have been around firearms my whole life. I remember as a kid, my Dad would take me out 'plinking' at tin cans with his .22! I don't, however, remember the actual FIRST time, yes I was that young...
    In my opinion, this should be a part of every childs upbringing!

    And, the range time/coffee offer is always open (to anyone in the area actually, Doesn't take much to convince me to go to the range, and I'm addicted to coffee!):celebrate

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    Here's something funny, I get friends who ask me what would I do if someone tried to get my gun from my holster and shouldn't I worry if I bend over or crouch down, my simple response is "go ahead, try it" at this point they kinda back away from me as if I am going to bite so I say "go ahead I dare you". They just leave it at that so if my friends, people who know I would never hurt them are too afraid to try why the %&#$ would I worry about a guy who doesn't know me.

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    Maybe I need to clarify a little. I Wasn't necessarily saying tomake this type of trainingrequired for open carry. I was just saying it would be nice if more training classes were availablefor those whowanted to open carry. So they could reap the benefits of the training, that is all.

    Thanks for all of the feedback

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    :?

    Most, if not all, handgun/tactical courses will teach what you need to know. If you want to take some time off work, there is GunSite.

    http://www.gunsite.net/classes_pistol.html

    You're not going to find any better place to train.

    note: Expect to have your balls busted and yelled at if you make any mistakes.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    gb8106 wrote:
    Maybe I need to clarify a little. I Wasn't necessarily saying tomake this type of trainingrequired for open carry. I was just saying it would be nice if more training classes were availablefor those whowanted to open carry. So they could reap the benefits of the training, that is all.

    Thanks for all of the feedback
    Thanks for the clarification! Often on this board and others people will make mention that they are ok with OC/CC/whatever so long as there is a REQUIRED training associated with it... While I feel I can safely say that we all agree that a certain level of training is prudent; Making it a requirement is a violation of our RIGHTS, and that anything the government gets involved in gets really messed up really quickly...

    Here in Texas, you will find that most 'training' that is available is geared towards CC (and thus no so much 'retention' training), that is because we 'aren't allowed' to OC. More in depth training is available, and more readily available in other states where OC has not been legislated away!

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