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Thread: A time for action: County and Local "park" ordinances IMPORTANT

  1. #1
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    It is clear that local ordinances prohibiting the carry of firearms in local parks are pre-empted. While they are "similar" to the state statute prohibiting firearms in state parks they are FAR more stringent than the state statute as they place a FAR larger restriction on the places where you can carry than does the state statute. CLEARLY more stringent. CLEARLY pre-empted.

    On June 18th I spoke with a staff person, Darlene Winkat the County Executives Office and subsequently sent the following email so that she could pass it along to the appropriate personell. Darlene responded to a few subsequent inquiry's letting me know she had not received a response from others in the office. She then gave me Tim Russell, Deputy Chief of Staff's phone number 414-278-4216 and suggested I call him to discuss further and precipitate a response. I have now left 3 or 4 messages for Tim with no response.

    Please take this opportunity to let County Executive and CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR Scott Walker know that its important to you that your next potential governor would take an interest in the rights and concerns of the citizens he represents. This is not a frivolous request of the County Executive. As citizens, we want clarification on the law SO WE CAN COMPLY WITH IT while also being able to exercise our rights GUARANTEED to us by the wisconsin state constitution.

    As Scott Walker is a candidate for Governor of Wisconsin the opinions of ALL WISCOSIN RESIDENTS are (or should) be very important to him.

    Please call Tim Russell at 414-278-4216 and ask that he respond to my inquiry OR email the county executive directly at countyexec@milwcnty.comrequesting that in his role as county executive he request from the attorney general, an opinion as the wether or not these local "park" statutes are pre-empted. An average citizen cannot make requests of the Attorney General, but the County Executive MAY!

    Below is a copy of the email I have transmitted to the staff at the county executives office. Feel free to use the text to craft your email or in your call to the staff person. (I also included a "short version" at the end of this post)
    County Executive Scott Walker,

    It appears that Milwaukee County ordinance # 47.05 is in conflict with state statute 66.0409



    66.0409. Local regulation of firearms.
    (1) In this section:
    (a) "Firearm" has the meaning given in s.
    167.31 (1) (c).
    (b) "Political subdivision" means a city,
    village, town or county.
    (c) "Sport shooting range" means an area designed and operated for the practice of weapons used in hunting, skeet shooting and similar sport shooting.
    (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.
    (3)(a) Nothing in this section prohibits a county from imposing a sales tax or use tax under subchapter V of chapter 77 on any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, sold in the county.
    (b) Nothing in this section prohibits a city, village or town that is authorized to exercise village powers under s. 60.22 (3) from enacting an ordinance or adopting a resolution that restricts the discharge of a firearm.
    (4)(a) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from continuing to enforce an ordinance or resolution that is in effect on November 18, 1995, and that regulates the sale, purchase, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, if the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute. transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components,
    (am) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from continuing to enforce until November 30, 1998, an ordinance or resolution that is in effect on November 18, 1995, and that requires a waiting period of not more than 7 days for the purchase of a handgun.
    (b) If a political subdivision has in effect on November 17, 1995, an ordinance or resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or
    taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, and the ordinance or resolution is not the same as or similar to a state statute, the ordinance or resolution shall have no legal effect and the political subdivision may not enforce the ordinance or resolution on or after November 18, 1995.
    (c) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from enacting and enforcing a zoning ordinance that regulates the new construction of a sport shooting range or when the expansion of an existing sport shooting range would impact public health and safety.
    (5) A county ordinance that is enacted or a county resolution that is adopted by a county under sub. (2) or a county ordinance or resolution that remains in effect under sub. (4) (a) or (am) applies only in those towns in the county that have not enacted an ordinance or adopted a resolution under sub. (2) or that continue to enforce an ordinance or resolution under sub. (4) (a) or (am), except that this subsection does not apply to a sales or use tax that is imposed under subchapter V of chapter 77.

    ---


    Milwaukee County Ordiance 47.05
    Use of firearms and fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow; trapping. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description, nor shall any person engage in trapping within any park or parkway without a written permit of the department of parks, recreation and culture; nor shall any person hunt with bow and arrow within any park or parkway. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description upon any premises owed or leased by Milwaukee County which is not part of the county parks and parkways. The word "gun" shall include airgun.
    Clearly the Milwaukee County Ordiance is more "stringent" than the state law, as state law provides no prohibition of the right to carry/bear arms in county or local parks. The pre-emption statute requires that a local ordinance must be similar to AND no more stringent than state law. While the ordinance is similar to, it is clearly more stringent than the state law.

    I would ask that the county executive make a request of the attorney general to verify that indeed, this local statute is more stringent than state law and thus unenforceable. It is my first hand knowledge that sheriffs deputies have been telling our citizens that they will be arrested if they exercise their wisconsin constitutional right to open carry firearms in county parks. In order to avoid the legal exposure the county will face if they inappropriately arrest and charge people with an ordinance violation that is pre-empted and unenforceable, I believe it is of utmost importance that the county offer its citizens a clear and accurate statement as to what their legal rights are.

  2. #2
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    Short version for email:

    County Executive and Candidate for Governor Scott Walker:

    It appears that Milwaukee County ordinance # 47.05 is in conflict with state statute 66.0409.

    Could you or a member of your staff request an official opinion from the Attorney General or corporate counsel so that we residents of the state of Wisconsin have the confidence and CLARITY of our rights which we are entitled as residents.

    Specifically I would like clarification that the County ordinance which prohibits ANY posession of a firearm in a county park is pre-empted because it is more stringent than the state statute which only prohibits posession of a firearm in state parks.

    Sincerely:

    (your name and location)

    Mail to: countyexec@milwcnty.com

  3. #3
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    Email sent.

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    Yes this is something we have to do, I've called them many times and they said a deputy district attorney would contact me. He never did............ But the more the merrier! Maybe it would make it so that someone from his office would give a response.



    Ben

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    Dane county has a similar prohibition.

    53.03 PROHIBITED ITEMS OR USES.
    In addition to otherwise illegal activities, the following shall be prohibited within the boundaries of any park:

    (2) (a) Possession or discharge of any firearm or weapon of any kind except in connection with a hunting activity or event where specifically allowed by written permit issued by the parks director or designee, and then only in strict conformity with the conditions stated in the written permit, or as authorized by sub. (b);

    (b)
    The park commission may designate lands under their jurisdiction as a wildlife area. Land designated as a wildlife area shall be open to hunting, trapping and fishing in the same manner as a State Wildlife Area consistent with Wis. Admin. Code Ch. NR 45. The ommission mayadopt additional or revised rules and policies for land designated as a wildlife area pursuant to sec. 53.11. A violation of Wis. Admin. Code Ch. 45, or such additional rules adopted by the commission on land designated as a wildlife area, is a violation under this section. The commission shall have the authority to amend a wildlife area designation.

    (3)
    Washing of vehicles or pets;

    Iwill send an email to her royal elitist County Executive Kathleen Falk and ask herrequestan opinion also.Now ... about my right to wash my dog in a park....

    Others may want to check their county/municipal ordinances and do likewise.



    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
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    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  6. #6
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    Hopefully more than just the 4 of us have sent an email. This is a simple task that would benefit EVERYONE on this board. If you can't pick up your fingers and drop and email for you freedoms why are you here?



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    I hope so to, there is really no other way. I've tried almost everything, Sheriff's, county counsel, corporation counsel, MC district attorny. I have gotten nowhere alone. Well I guess the only other way would be to challenge it in court. I have thought about just saying screw the ordinance it's nullified, I'm going down to grant park and am going to protect myself without risking injury. I can win in a fight but my job requires me to be in top physical condition, if I'm not then I can't work. This ordinance is nullified!!!! arrghhh it's frustrating!



    Ben

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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    Hopefully more than just the 4 of us have sent an email. This is a simple task that would benefit EVERYONE on this board. If you can't pick up your fingers and drop and email for you freedoms why are you here?

    Thank you sir. Mail is sent.

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    Email sent. 1 down, 71 countys left to email......

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    email sent..



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    I honostley wouldn't worry about any other county/town or cities ordinance if it is pre-empted. I wouldn't even check. The reason why theMilwaukee County ordinance is a little different is because the parks are almost police states in terms of police investigating ANY suspicious activity or call, the sheriffs office for example. They have ramped up their patrols and etc. After the litter pick up in late June we went to a park, you could see the police station a 100 yards away. They probobly had a pre-empted ordinance but none of us cared. I WILLNOT yield my right to protect myself due to some ordinance plain and simple, the pre-emption statute was partially made to ensure thats the case. It's illegal tofire a firearm while not at a designated range in Milwaukee yet how many people are going to consider that when they have to use their weapon for self defense?... nobody.



    Ben

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    I sent my email out yesterday....

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    Like that radio add says, it's illegal in a state, that I forgot, to have a donkey in a bath tub. It would be nice if all unenforceable laws were taken off the books. I'm sure Flynn would be a fan of that now. I wonder what other goofy worthless laws we have.

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    Email sent. 1 down, 71 countys left to email......
    We only need 1 opinion from the AG to let us know that these rediculous "local park firearm ordinances" are indeed pre-empted.

    According to what I've read, Scott Walker, being the county executive has the authority to ASK the attorney general for clarification on this issue. I'm not asking Scott Walker to take a position, just USE his position to ASK the AG to issue a clarification.

    I think using this method to get an AG opinion has teeth because even though scott walker is Milwaukee County Executive HE'S RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR and thus the opinions of people ANYWHERE in the state will DEFINITELY be of interest to him. If he chooses NOT to ask the AG for an opinion, he's siding against law-abiding gun owners across the state. BAD move.

    In addition, if the AG issues an opinion stating that the milwaukee county ordinance is INDEED pre-empted in the Dept. of Justice's expert opinion, then EVERY other local park ordinace in the state can also be assured to be pre-empted.

    Now don't get me wrong, if there is a county official in ANY county who is willing to make the request of the AG, great, it doesn't matter where it comes from, an opinion is what we need. Law abiding ciizens deserve that, BUT I CAN assure you that a county officials in other parts of the state will ONLY be concerned with what people in that county think because they aren't running for statewide office.

    Thats why I asked people statewide to send an email because Scott Walker is running for governor and THUS while he USUALLY might not give 2 ***** about getting an email from someone in Boulder Junction, because he needs THAT vote for governor, he DOES care.

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    E-mail sent and I have already sent one to all of my county executives.

    If Scott walker does not reply to us then he will not get my vote, simple as that.

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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    I'm not asking Scott Walker to take a position, just USE his position to ASK the AG to issue a clarification.
    I would seriously like to know just what his position is on the issue. I realize if he is in favor he could lose votes, same as if he is not in favor. But i believe those positions should be put on the table so these candidates are not running under a smoke cloud to hide their real positions. If you feel that strongly about something then you should not be afraid to stand up and make your position known. Votes or no votes.

  17. #17
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    If Scott walker does not reply to us then he will not get my vote, simple as that.
    Yup. I agree. I've been a huge scott walker supporter over the years financially. I'm shocked that after speaking with people in his office and leaving messages for others in his office that no one has even given me the courtesy of an answer.

    I understand they are busy and have plenty of things to do, but this is not a frivolous question/issue. And it doesn't even require him to put himself out there politically. He's merely asking the AG for an opinion. If the AG says "yes, the county ordinance is enforceable " (which I see absolutely no way he could) then I don't expect anything more from Scott. But to not even do citizens the courtesy of asking the government to CLARIFY its own f'ing laws? That is unexcusable.




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    GlocksRfun wrote:
    I wonder what other goofy worthless laws we have.
    Read and find out. There are about TEN THOUSAND sub-chapters of Wisconsin Statute Law (~1000 Chapters with 100 sub-chapters each) and they're all there for your reading pleasure. There are an equal number of administrative rules and regulations (like from the Department of Neverending Regulations).

    Among the states and the feds, there are about TWENTY-TWO THOUSAND gun laws.

  19. #19
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    Someone should write a book, "Wisconsin Laws Written by Dummies."

    Oh wait, thats the state statutes.



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    Wisconsin Constitution

    Article XI Corporations [ ...]

    Municipal home rule; ...

    SECTION 3. ...

    (1) Cities and villages organized
    pursuant to state law may determine their local affairs and government,
    subject only to this constitution and to such enactments
    of the legislature of statewide concern as with uniformity shall
    affect every city or every village. The method of such determination
    shall be prescribed by the legislature.

    ================================================
    There are as many annotations in the State Constitution as in any statute.

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    Here is the response I received from Calumet County Corporate Counsel:

    RE: County Ordinance 46-2(d)‏ From: You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as junk Sent: Thu 7/30/09 1:03 PM To: 'James Gleason' (j.gleason@hotmail.com) Cc: Jay Shambeau (Shambeau.Jay@co.calumet.wi.us); Lisa Jodar (Jodar.Lisa@co.calumet.wi.us)
    Dear Mr. Gleason:

    As my legal assistant mentioned to you in her response to you earlier this month, she forwarded the information you sent to me. I am the attorney that represents Calumet County and will review the information when time permits. However, I will not respond to you with any legal opinion. I do not answer legal questions that members of the public submit. My role is to answer legal questions submitted to me by the Board of Supervisors, Committees, Commissions and Boards of Calumet County, county officials and department heads. For your information, ordinance changes come from the recommendation of either a county committee or two supervisors. Thank you for your concern.

    [size=Here is what I sent back to her:]
    RE: County Ordinance 46-2(d)‏ From: James Gleason (j.gleason@hotmail.com) Sent: Thu 7/30/09 1:14 PM To: captain.pamela@co.calumet.wi.us
    Ms Captain,

    Thank you for responding to my e-mail. It is regret ful that you can not respond to tax payers inquiries. With that I will send a copy of my concerns and your reply to the County Executives as well as the Attorney Generals Office.

    Thank you for your time

    James A. Gleason
    15 lehner St.
    Chilton, WI. 53014

    I am now contacting the Attorney Generals Office and will post that reply when received as well


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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Here is the response I received from Calumet County Corporate Counsel:

    RE: County Ordinance 46-2(d)‏

    From:

    Sent: Thu 7/30/09 1:03 PM

    To: 'James Gleason' (j.gleason@hotmail.com)

    Cc: Jay Shambeau (Shambeau.Jay@co.calumet.wi.us); Lisa Jodar (Jodar.Lisa@co.calumet.wi.us)

    Dear Mr. Gleason:

    As my legal assistant mentioned to you in her response to you earlier this month, she forwarded the information you sent to me. I am the attorney that represents Calumet County and will review the information when time permits. However, I will not respond to you with any legal opinion. I do not answer legal questions that members of the public submit. My role is to answer legal questions submitted to me by the Board of Supervisors, Committees, Commissions and Boards of Calumet County, county officials and department heads. For your information, ordinance changes come from the recommendation of either a county committee or two supervisors. Thank you for your concern.

    [size=Here is what I sent back to her:]

    RE: County Ordinance 46-2(d)‏
    From: James Gleason (j.gleason@hotmail.com)
    Sent: Thu 7/30/09 1:14 PM
    To: captain.pamela@co.calumet.wi.us .
    Ms Captain,

    Thank you for responding to my e-mail. It is regret ful that you can not respond to tax payers inquiries. With that I will send a copy of my concerns and your reply to the County Executives as well as the Attorney Generals Office.

    Thank you for your time

    James A. Gleason
    15 lehner St.
    Chilton, WI. 53014

    I am now contacting the Attorney Generals Office and will post that reply when received as well

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    I contacted the AG's office and they told me to Fax my concerns along with copies of the emails to their office. I have Faxed the info and will post any replies I receive.

  24. #24
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    My emails to Dane County Executive and to Scott Walker:

    Dear County Executive Kathleen Falk:

    It appears that Dane County ordinance # 53.03 (2)(a) is in conflict with state statute 66.0409.

    Could you request an official opinion from the Attorney General or corporate counsel so that residents of Dane County have the confidence and CLARITY in exercising rights that they are entitled to as State of Wisconsin residents.

    Specifically, I would like clarification be requested that the County ordinance, which prohibits ANY possession of a firearm in a county park, is pre-empted because it is more stringent than the state statute which only prohibits possession of a firearm in state parks.

    Please provide me withacopyof your request(s) if and when made.

    Sincerely,

    Name and Address


    Dear Candidate for Governor Scott Walker:

    It appears that there are counties with firearm ordinances in conflict with state statute 66.0409.

    Could you request an official opinion, as a county executive, from the Attorney General so that Wisconsin residents have confidence and CLARITY in exercising rights that they are entitled to as State of Wisconsin residents.

    Specifically, I would like clarification be requested that the County ordinance, which prohibits ANY possession of a firearm in a county park, is pre-empted because it is more stringent than the state statute which only prohibits possession of a firearm in state parks.

    Sincerely,

    Name and Address


    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  25. #25
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    ive been hounding him on twitter also.. a much more public forum...

    let him know that we are his supporters. and if we dont get an answer some of us will not be for long.

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