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Thread: "Just Say NO to Government Run Healthcare" rally

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    "Just Say NO to Government Run Healthcare" rally

    Friends,

    Please join us tomorrow, Thursday, July 30th from 5 PM - 7 PM at the corner of Big Beaver and Coolidge in Troy for this important rally. The Oakland County Republican Party will be circulating petitions at the rally. If you are interested in circulating petitions, I can give you some contact #s.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    And this deals with the 2nd amendment, how exactly?

    Again, this is politics unrelated to the 2nd amendment, and we've all seen that talking politics on this specific forum is a VERY BAD IDEA. Can we have an admin delete this thread please before it starts an argument?
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    There is no need to get political about it. Whether your feelings are one way or the other, exposure to people who are likely to approve of gun rights is a good thing. If you feel like going, great, if you don't, then you probably don't have much to say on the matter. There is no reason to get excited about it or start arguing.

    I'd like to be there, but I probably will have to work.
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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    There IS need to get political about it. It's a political opinion and it doesn't pertain to our cause. Personally, I'm pro-government healthcare, and I don't like seeing this kinda crap here. This doesn't belong on a 2nd amendment, pro-gun website.


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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I'm some what pro socialized health care, and have been ever since I saw diabetic men work 80 hours a week at skilled trades jobs and not be able to afford pills and insulin. It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the currency wasn't so manipulated by hyper rich people and we didn't have NAFTA, but that's just about as off topic as it gets.

    What all that doesn't alter is the fact that I want everyone from every political spectrum to know about and respect gun rights. The saying "there's no such thing as bad advertising" isn't always true, but I think it is here.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Michigander wro
    What all that doesn't alter the fact that I want everyone from every political spectrum to know about and respect gun rights. The saying "there's no such thing as bad advertising" isn't always true, but I think it is here.
    While that may be the case, there's no denying that the majority of big time pro gun advocates are right wing, and that being said, I think it's safe to say that most of the members here are too, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If we're going to broaden our horizon though, we don't want straight wing or left wing propaganda that is unrelated to our cause, but rather, should stay on topic.

    Just my .02 american
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    As a quick aside, I lived in Germany for a number of years under socialized medicine. If they proposed a system like theirs, I would jump at it. Even with a senior citizen population of 17% (America is around 7%, I think) there was no waiting, I could see any doctor I wanted to visit, and everyone paid the same percentage... everyone. I even had the doctor COME TO MY HOUSE as I was so sick that I could not move out of bed.

    Now, back to the issue. I agree w/ malignity to a certain degree: there is an assumption made that all 2nd Amendment supporters are "right wing", "conservative", etc.

    Those are assumptions which are dangerous. People who claim to be "conservative" have supported very restrictive gun laws (see R. Reagan as Gov. of California and their laws) and I've also seen very "liberal" people advocate for 2nd Amendment rights (see Blue Dog Democrats).

    Politicians do what they do to get elected, folks. They appreciate the fact that people are quick to judge when they use a term (Republican, Democrat, etc)that, in most cases, means nothing in terms of what they believe. Today a Republican, tomorrow a Democrat, and next week...?

    Instead of arguing whether something is "right wing", "left wing", or just spouting that something is "socialism", why not try to argue from facts instead of name-calling. Think about how Homeland Security just recently called gun owners "terrorists"... by that very decree sheeple everywhere breathed a sigh of relief because our society's problems are so easily solved: ban firearms = get rid terrorists (sarcasm).


    I don't care if a person "claims" something, it's what they do that I look at. Since this is a firearm-related site, I think it's wise when we have a potential candidate for Governor claim that he supports the 2nd Amendment but has said nothing about Michigan's registration system; like I said, it's what they do, not what they say.

    That is not to say that I agree 100% w/ Malignity. I just interpreted the post as: IF anyone is interested, they can go (and perhaps OC?). I do understand Malignity's concern and feel it's valid in general, though. We are ostensibly here to further the cause of OC. We espouse a wide range of political and religious beliefs; that is what makes this group, in my opinion, a premier site for firearms in general. The only assumption I make when we are here is that we have the right (and perhaps an obligation) to OC and we desire to exercise and further that right without fear of harassment or arrest.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Another way to put it, as I have in the past, is that we are a strictly volunteer community, where no one is ever required to or prohibited from doing anything. We are united only in that we all approve of open carrying and gun rights in general, whether or not we do it ourselves.

    If someone suggests an event that offends members, the offended members shouldn't go, but should also avoid complaining or arguing, because again, this is not the place to argue, at least not about non gun related matters.

    Even if an event doesn't seem gun rights related, it's important to remember that it will be if open carriers show up with the intent to raise awareness.
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    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:
    As a quick aside, I lived in Germany for a number of years under socialized medicine. If they proposed a system like theirs, I would jump at it. Even with a senior citizen population of 17% (America is around 7%, I think) there was no waiting, I...
    U.S. population of 65 and over is more like 13%. And growing.

    And Germany's population is only a bit more than a quarter of ours.

    The scale is much, much different.





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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:

    Those are assumptions which are dangerous. People who claim to be "conservative" have supported very restrictive gun laws (see R. Reagan as Gov. of California and their laws) and I've also seen very "liberal" people advocate for 2nd Amendment rights (see Blue Dog Democrats).
    I claim to be neither, I claim to be a libertarian.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Sorry, short high jack here but I think it pertains to the general idea: people are lazy thinkers and prefer to call something/someone a name instead of really investigating what the facts are.... (I'm not saying this pertains to Hank) But, I've heard people tell me that the plan is "socialism" but they can't define the word, can't tell me what they don't like about the plan... just that it's "socialism". Just like all gun owners are terrorists, all republicans are ethical, all democrats look out for the "little guy", all libertarians... you get the idea.

    Hank,

    Yep, you were closer: % of pop. 65+: US 12.2% Germany 15.5%... estimates say US population of seniors won't be at 15% until 2020. Germany's is expected ot be at least 25% in 2020, due to the low birthrate and avg life expectancy that is more than US.

    Size of US population should control cost by spreading costs among more people in the US. Germany's population size should hinder provision of insurance, not help it Hank.

    I'm not saying German Healthcare is perfect but definitely better than what we have.

    Germans spend less than 10% GDP on Healthcare, Americans spend more than 14% of GDP.

    How do they do it? German healthcare has a very simplistic structure and few "rules" and regulations so that little money is spent on administration. Americans tend to regulate with rules, exceptions to the rules, and exceptions to the exceptions. This is our adminsitrative style, and therefore a simple system is probably impossible.

    Also, German Healthcare: No rationing in regards to procedure, average wait time in German Emergency Room is 15 minutes vs 3-6 hours in some hospitals in US. More physicians per capita than in US. About (within plus or minus 2%) same % of specialists as US.

    I lived it; worked a normal job and saw it first hand.

    I have excellent healthcare here too as I have a low pay/ great benefit job. But there, I had a very ordinary job in terms of pay/benefits and had better insurance than I have here, as did everyone else.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Yooper wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:

    Those are assumptions which are dangerous. People who claim to be "conservative" have supported very restrictive gun laws (see R. Reagan as Gov. of California and their laws) and I've also seen very "liberal" people advocate for 2nd Amendment rights (see Blue Dog Democrats).
    I claim to be neither, I claim to be a libertarian.*
    Actually, I was a member of the Mich. LP back in the early 80's but, like I said, Libertarian or any other name means nothing... there is a very broad spectrum within libertarianism.
    So once again, no better than any other name. Actually tends to be used by some republican party members who
    co-opt it to get elected and then change when in office.


    Bottom line: actions speak louder than words.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:

    Actually, I was a member of the Mich. LP back in the early 80's but, like I said, Libertarian or any other name means nothing... there is a very broad spectrum within libertarianism.
    So once again, no better than any other name. Actually tends to be used by some republican party members who
    co-opt it to get elected and then change when in office.


    Bottom line: actions speak louder than words.
    It is a sad fact that a politician has to change his views from how he votes in Washington to what he tells those who elected him. I think there's maybe 2 representatives in washington who are true libertarians.

    All 535, as well as the President take the same oath of office, to protect and defend the constitution, yet there's only 2 that truly try to do just that, it's sad.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Since there are no "Libertarians" listed as members of Congress, your statement somewhat proves my point.

    If you are referring to Ron Paul as one of the true libertarians in Congress, his views on immigration, trade protectionism, and other "nativist" tendencies lead some to believe he is just a republican in libertarian clothing (there is also a criticism of his opposition to abortion but at least, in my opinion, he justifies it from a libertarian perspective). Once again, using the term libertarian leads one to believe that he would advocate open borders and free trade. Don't get me wrong, I voted for him when he ran as a Libertarian and have nothing against him. I've met him a number of times (his brother lives in Grand Rapids) and I do like the guy.

    The reason I bring this up is that as people who hold the 2nd amendment dear, I think we need to be very cautious of making decisions based upon name-calling. In the last election cycle, one of the biggest advocates of firearm rights was "Democrat":shock: Bill Richardson. I don't know anything about his politics/beliefs in other areas, but in regards to firearms he seems to be closer to where I am than many of the other candidates, republicans and democrats alike. As I understand it, he even has a license to carry concealed, as does Mike Huckabee. I know, so does Schumer....and Feinstein; look what they have done for us.

    So, like any other term used as shorthand to give an idea of where a person stands on the issues, "Libertarian" really falls short. I would rather go back to the ideal espoused by G. Washington that we do away with parties and just vote for people based on where they stand on the issues. But, I do realize that political parties exist to give money to get people elected and therefore will be around for a long time to come.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Ill chime in on this one, but only this 1 post as I dont want to get sucked in either. My dental Hygentist...SP? is from Canada. He told me that the dental in Canada is so half ass he could not stand working there and seeing all the shoddy work. He work at MANY Dentists in Canada and they were all the same. This is one of his main reasons for working in America.

    I just dont see any Government programs that work effeciently. Right now our Health Care system is extremely good. EVERYONE has access to it IE the emergency room. Give a fake name they dont care, look at all the ILLEGALs getting free health care, whats stopping everyone else?

    The Health Care here is already being taken advantage of as it is, just imagine how bad its going to get when EVERYONE has free rain on it 24/7. There will be waits there will be cancelling of treatments when it gets to expensive. The lesser treatment will always be chosen. Medical Doctor Pay will be cut, quality doctors will go away.

    Ok the last couple were just my opnion rant, but I would not be surprised. Health Care is not really that expensive. You dont need to see a doctor for every cold and hickup. I havent been to the doctors in.....EVER, I had my tonsils out when I was little and thatwas it! Maybe these people on their Pain medicine should suck it up and stop being little girls about everything..... I use to work in a pharmacy and thats another rant in itself, TONS of people on Meds for free.


    Freedom isn't free, but this is America! We will find a way to outsource it and save some money - Jeremy

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    jeremy05 wrote:
    Ill chime in on this one, but only this 1 post as I dont want to get sucked in either. My dental Hygentist...SP? is from Canada. He told me that the dental in Canada is so half ass he could not stand working there and seeing all the shoddy work. He work at MANY Dentists in Canada and they were all the same. This is one of his main reasons for working in America.
    I call shenanigans on this. I work in healthcare, and with a handful of Canadians that work here, and I can tell you straight up, the reason they work here is because they get paid much better.

    THAT is the reason he's working in America. Will he ever admit to that? Doubt it.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I'll end my posts on this thread with my original soapbox point: we are a diverse group of individuals who are joined together with the aim to promote the expression of our right to keep and bear arms. I see OCDO as transcending the typical left/right dichotomy; a dichotomy which, in my opinion, precludes intelligent discussion of firearm issues. If anything, I see discussion regarding the 2nd Amendment beginning to transcend the political spectrum and for that, I am grateful. What we are talking about here is an argument against elitism emminating from any point on the political spectrum: do you think that some individuals have the "right" to defend themselves and some don't?

    I agree with Malignity that the issue of "gun rights" is typically seen as a typically "conservative" notion; I think that this limits the discussion that we need to have. Like I said originally, I see the invitation to attend the healthcare rally as just that, an invitation. I would also feel free to invite others to attend discussions that correlate with my beliefs on other issues. I don't see anything nefarious in the invitation nor do I think that that invitation requires one to subscribe to a certain set of beliefs regarding the issue. As gun owners who also advocate the right to actually bear arms, I see oponents in people who claim to be representative of both the "left" and the "right", and anywhere in between. We need to be able to show people from all walks of life that a person who chooses to openly carry a firearm is not a miscreant who is just one step from firing on others. We are lawyers, doctors, mechanics, teachers, business owners and just everyday people who choose to carry a firearm openly. When we can get that message across to everyone and this board becomes somewhat unecessary, it is then that we have "won the battle".

    I am heartened by the increasing number of posts that state that nothing happened while our members are OCing. Those of us that have been doing this for some time can attest to the positive changes that have taken place, but our work is not yet finished. Speaking for myself, I owe the people here a large amount of gratitude for making me confident in my choice to OC. We still have a long way to go, but we are getting there.

    I appreciate the fact that we all occupy different points on the political spectrum and hope that this inclusiveness continues to be celebrated. I am saddened that the one of the major downfalls of some of the major gun rights organizations has been their decision to support causes which veer away from the group's intended purposes. The ability to stay true "to the cause" is what makes us strong; we don't need to fall into the typical trap of ascribing beliefs upon the members here in any other area other than Open Carry.

    CARRY ON!
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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