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  1. #1
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    I became aware of the "Open Carry Movement" when I heard an LEO mention it on myscanner in Sunnyvale, California, and it definitely caught my attention. Seems the local cops were sent to a Starbucks to investigate a report of "two men with holstered pistols". I froze the the movie I was viewing and turned up the volume on the scanner, subsequently learning the LEOs left, after determining the weapons were not loaded. Nobody arrested, et cetera.

    So, I Googled "california open carry", and was rewarded with a lot information, which required about an hour to just skim the surface.

    Gentlemen, ladies, keep up the good work. I am a gun owner and an avid advocate of our second ammendment rights. The unloaded carry of firearms by law abiding citizens is a giant step forward for California, however citizens (which I define as personswithout any felony convictions and a clean mental health record) should be able to carry loaded weapons, after completing an extensive firearms handling course to insure they have sufficient hand/eye coordination to put lead into the target. I won't mention names or police agencies, but I personally knew a detective that could not miss the walls of the firing range. He was a patrolman; I guess the brass thought, "Promote him to detective; less of a chance of his killing an innocent bystander". Sad, but true.

    But, before I wander out open carrying any of my pistols legally, I'll have to see a lot more public education. Guns scare people. I usually wear a fixed blade Bowie in plain view, and have had unpleasant encounters. Wear an unloaded gun? That would be looking for trouble, unfortunately.

    Before retiring, I worked for a major west coast newspaper, to which I still subscribe, but I have NEVER seen any article supporting, denigrating, or even explaining the open carry issue.

    So, in closing, your group needs to buy advertising space to make the residents of California aware that Open Carry is legal. Municipal, County, and state agencies need to be aware of the Open Carry issue.

    Most importantly, the state (California) must overrule counties and cities. Don't add to the confusion, as has been done with our traffic laws. Right turn on red? Depends on where you are; city, county, state ....

    Defend yourself? Depends where your are, and in a lotof instances, whomyour are.

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    Bull Frog wrote:
    SNIPGuns scare people...Wear an unloaded gun? That would be looking for trouble, unfortunately.
    It may not be as bad as your first impression leads you to estimate.

    I live in what might be the most liberal, statist, anti-gun area of Virginia.

    I can still count the number of negative encounters with citizens on one hand. I've had so many positive encounters I've lost count. I've had three or four people declare a desire to obtain their CHP after talking to me, the conversation initiated by them after seeing my OCd gun.

    There are just lots of people who do not think guns are bad. Its easy to believe there are lots of people against guns if you fall for all the anti-gun media hype and politicians.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Bull Frog wrote:
    I became aware of the "Open Carry Movement" when I heard an LEO mention it on myscanner in Sunnyvale, California, and it definitely caught my attention. Seems the local cops were sent to a Starbucks to investigate a report of "two men with holstered pistols". I froze the the movie I was viewing and turned up the volume on the scanner, subsequently learning the LEOs left, after determining the weapons were not loaded. Nobody arrested, et cetera.

    So, I Googled "california open carry", and was rewarded with a lot information, which required about an hour to just skim the surface.

    Gentlemen, ladies, keep up the good work. I am a gun owner and an avid advocate of our second ammendment rights. The unloaded carry of firearms by law abiding citizens is a giant step forward for California, however citizens (which I define as personswithout any felony convictions and a clean mental health record) should be able to carry loaded weapons, after completing an extensive firearms handling course to insure they have sufficient hand/eye coordination to put lead into the target. I won't mention names or police agencies, but I personally knew a detective that could not miss the walls of the firing range. He was a patrolman; I guess the brass thought, "Promote him to detective; less of a chance of his killing an innocent bystander". Sad, but true.

    But, before I wander out open carrying any of my pistols legally, I'll have to see a lot more public education. Guns scare people. I usually wear a fixed blade Bowie in plain view, and have had unpleasant encounters. Wear an unloaded gun? That would be looking for trouble, unfortunately.

    Before retiring, I worked for a major west coast newspaper, to which I still subscribe, but I have NEVER seen any article supporting, denigrating, or even explaining the open carry issue.

    So, in closing, your group needs to buy advertising space to make the residents of California aware that Open Carry is legal. Municipal, County, and state agencies need to be aware of the Open Carry issue.

    Most importantly, the state (California) must overrule counties and cities. Don't add to the confusion, as has been done with our traffic laws. Right turn on red? Depends on where you are; city, county, state ....

    Defend yourself? Depends where your are, and in a lotof instances, whomyour are.
    Start at the beginning of my blog. I have only had a few bad incidents, most of them with police officers, due to my open carry adventures here in California. I think that you will find yourself (hopefully pleasantly) in the wrong on this one.

    http://caopencarry.blogspot.com

    CARRY ON!

    -N8

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    Welcome Bull Frog. Always glad to see word is getting out.

    I've been carrying for two years now, and have only had one incident where someone was scared... and he was a retired deputy that called 9-1-1. That's one person in two years. Over 100 outings, totaling at least 200 hours of public exposure.

    I don't mean to encourage you to do something you're not comfortable with, but just want to point out that there's little evidence the general public is made up of hoplophobes. I've found that most people don't notice, and among those that do I've seen nothing but interest and questions about the laws.

    Also, I can't help but disagree with your assertion that one should have to undergo testing before exercising their rights. I strongly encourage everybody to learn how to safely handle their weapons, but to introduce a government bureaucrat to that process is tyranny. No tests. No taxes. It's a right.

    Lastly, I will agree that we need to get more exposure. It would be great if the press would cover the topic more, but they just don't. When I was detained by my local PD, the local paper wouldn't touch the story. At first there was some interest, then I was informed that the reporter got a call from the Chief of Police, and then she stopped returning my calls.

    If you still have contacts at that "major west coast newspaper", perhaps you could suggest they give us the time of day. We have activists all over the state, and I'm sure we could find someone willing to give an interview.

    Buying ad space may give us more exposure, but I think we ultimately just need the press to do their job: report the news. If the open carry civil rights movement isn't newsworthy, I don't know what is.
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  5. #5
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    Bull Frog wrote:
    I became aware of the "Open Carry Movement" when I heard an LEO mention it on my¬*scanner in Sunnyvale, California, and it definitely caught my attention.¬* Seems the local cops were sent to a Starbucks to investigate a report of "two men with holstered pistols".¬* I froze the the movie I was viewing and turned up the volume on the scanner, subsequently learning the LEOs left, after determining the weapons were not loaded.¬* Nobody arrested, et cetera.
    Welcome Bull Frog! Glad to see that the Sunnyvale Police department is helping us by spreading the word about open carry I was one of two men at Star bucks. Two echo what the others here have said, I open carry every day in the bay area. That was the fourth time myself and the other gentleman had UOCed at that Starbucks. It is not often I have encounters with people that are worried about me being armed in public.

    Bull Frog wrote:
    Wear an unloaded gun? That would be looking for trouble, unfortunately.
    Just to make sure everyone understands, I would never carry a gun openly if I didn't have ammo for that gun on my person. That would be asking for trouble. But unloaded carry is the option we have in California right now, so I'll take it until we can change it.

    I like your attitude and your prospective, I hope we can get you to continue to come here to read and contribute. At the very least, could you give a guy a heads up the next time your scanner tips you off?

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Lastly, I will agree that we need to get more exposure. It would be great if the press would cover the topic more, but they just don't. When I was detained by my local PD, the local paper wouldn't touch the story. At first there was some interest, then I was informed that the reporter got a call from the Chief of Police, and then she stopped returning my calls.

    ...

    Buying ad space may give us more exposure, but I think we ultimately just need the press to do their job: report the news. If the open carry civil rights movement isn't newsworthy, I don't know what is.

    I ran into the same type of thing. I was giving tons of info to a reporter for an expose on a derelict city animal control department of one. Neither of the 2 trucks for one officer seem to ever leave the PD lot, and years of neglect have not led to a seizure, despite multiple reports from multiple parties. Pretty soon after the politicians in suits and hiding behind badges threw in their BS, all contact with the reporter and editor was cut off. Here's hoping they get audited by another agency quickly.

    ...

    The only billboard that might be effective is outside a police or sheriffs department. Throw a picture of an open carrier up there, then a surveillance picture of a convicted gang leader that went out in a LE press release. Under open carrier, put "Good", under gang leader, put "Bad". Or an open carrier in cuffs=Lawsuit, gang leader in cuffs=Promotion.

    Or something like that. If they're going to ACT ignorant on the law to get away with misconduct, talk to them like children.

    bad_ace wrote:
    I like your attitude and your prospective, I hope we can get you to continue to come here to read and contribute. At the very least, could you give a guy a heads up the next time your scanner tips you off?
    Nate and I have been thinking scanner intel can be passed on to those in the field, through SMS paging or Twitter. Advance warning would enable voice/video recorder battery checks, gathering friendly witnesses, or casual tactical retreats from LE harassment by locking up in the trunk or other containers.

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    I think Bull Frog hit the bullseye! I second his motion to do an advertising campaign. I recommend we start a fund to get a radio advertisement on LA's KFI 640 AM radio station. That station reaches over 1 million people throughout the entire southland! If others are interested, I will be happy to contact the station to inquire about public service announcement spot costs. If anyone here has an inside line to that station let us know.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    I think Bull Frog hit the bullseye!¬* I second his motion to do an advertising campaign.¬* I recommend we start a fund to get a radio advertisement on LA's KFI 640 AM radio station.¬* That station reaches over 1 million people throughout the entire southland!¬* If others are interested, I will be happy to contact the station to inquire about public service announcement spot costs.¬* If anyone here has an inside line to that station let us know.
    Bryan Suits http://twitter.com/kfibryan is probably our best friend there. Maybe Wayne Resnick too.

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    I am trying to organize the California open carriers with official and elected leaders.

    The idea is that we would actually have a PR division, develop press contacts, work with law enforcement departments, dispatchers and actually educate instead of merely activate.

    It would also be to help organize large events and coordinate them with press and PD's. Basically just trying to bring legitimacy and organization to the cause.

    If interested in contrinuting to the setup of this organization in anything including time, money or energy let me know.

    Also, I plan on creating a weekly internet radio talk show in which we can discuss open carry, perhaps with lawyers, potential political candidates and other things.

    I can use help on all these fronts. I think it is time for us to organize and let our cumulative voices speak.

  10. #10
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    Theseus wrote:
    I am trying to organize the California open carriers with official and elected leaders.

    The idea is that we would actually have a PR division, develop press contacts, work with law enforcement departments, dispatchers and actually educate instead of merely activate.

    It would also be to help organize large events and coordinate them with press and PD's. Basically just trying to bring legitimacy and organization to the cause.

    If interested in contrinuting to the setup of this organization in anything including time, money or energy let me know.

    Also, I plan on creating a weekly internet radio talk show in which we can discuss open carry, perhaps with lawyers, potential political candidates and other things.

    I can use help on all these fronts. I think it is time for us to organize and let our cumulative voices speak.
    I don't think that's a bad idea and I would be interested in assisting. I suggest we talk to the opencarry.org leadership and see if they've considered organized chapters. That might be the way to go instead of creating another splinter group.

    The weekly internet radio talk show is also a good idea, an idea that would need exposure, the kind of exposure radio ad space can only bring. Forget the papers nobody reads them anymore and radio people could care less, just as long as theyget paid.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  11. #11
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    Theseus wrote:
    Also, I plan on creating a weekly internet radio talk show in which we can discuss open carry, perhaps with lawyers, potential political candidates and other things.
    Well I was going to wait until I had more episodes posted before I told the forum about it. (I'll start a new thread when that happens).

    http://www.opencarryradio.com/

    Theseus, hope I didn't steal your thunder with the internet radio show but I've been working on this for a while. I can accommodate calls in to the studio and everything.

  12. #12
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    bad_ace wrote:
    Theseus wrote:
    Also, I plan on creating a weekly internet radio talk show in which we can discuss open carry, perhaps with lawyers, potential political candidates and other things.
    Well I was going to wait until I had more episodes posted before I told the forum about it. (I'll start a new thread when that happens).

    http://www.opencarryradio.com/

    Theseus, hope I didn't steal your thunder with the internet radio show but I've been working on this for a while. I can accommodate calls in to the studio and everything.
    Just visited the site, very cool. I'll have to start listening/reading the content tomorrow. I have Rev. Blanchard's video on my facebook page - that video is incredible.

    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    I have started a thread on it. . . You can check that thread out so that we don't hijack this one too much.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    Nate and I have been thinking scanner intel can be passed on to those in the field, through SMS paging or Twitter. Advance warning would enable voice/video recorder battery checks, gathering friendly witnesses, or casual tactical retreats from LE harassment by locking up in the trunk or other containers.
    Be careful with that idea... It is unlawful to communicate LE radio comms for the purpose of avoiding or escaping arrest, trial conviction, or punishment of a criminal offense.

    I know you're not suggesting this to avoid any of these things, but a LEO might construe avoiding a 12031(e) check as equivalent to avoiding arrest (since they're investigating an arrestable offense).

    636.5. Any person not authorized by the sender, who intercepts any public safety radio service communication, by use of a scanner or any other means, for the purpose of using that communication to assist in the commission of a criminal offense or to avoid or escape arrest, trial, conviction, or punishment or who divulges to any person he or she knows to be a suspect in the commission of any criminal offense, the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect or meaning of that communication concerning the offense with the intent that the suspect may avoid or escape from arrest, trial, conviction, or punishment is guilty of a misdemeanor.
    Nothing in this section shall preclude prosecution of any person under Section 31 or 32.
    As used in this section, "public safety radio service communication" means a communication authorized by the Federal Communications Commission to be transmitted by a station in the public safety radio service.
    Besides, if LEOs are on the way, they probably already know you have guns. Locking them up doesn't exempt you from 12031(e) checks. I doubt they'll let you retrieve your firearm yourself, and they can arrest you if you refuse to allow them to inspect your firearm. So the end effect might be that they get a free look through your trunk (or wherever you stow your gun).
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    Nate and I have been thinking scanner intel can be passed on to those in the field, through SMS paging or Twitter. Advance warning would enable voice/video recorder battery checks, gathering friendly witnesses, or casual tactical retreats from LE harassment by locking up in the trunk or other containers.
    Be careful with that idea... It is unlawful to communicate LE radio comms for the purpose of avoiding or escaping arrest, trial conviction, or punishment of a criminal offense.
    Carrying an unloaded gun is not a crime in most of CA except in the eyes of criminal LEOs. So there is no violation of 636.5, just avoiding being a victim of LEOs committing PC 146, 237, and possibly 182(a)(2), in addition to numerous civil rights violations under color of authority. So by invoking our right against self-incrimination and unlawful search and seizure, we are preventing crime.

    I know you're not suggesting this to avoid any of these things, but a LEO might construe avoiding a 12031(e) check as equivalent to avoiding arrest (since they're investigating an arrestable offense).
    An illegal arrest, for a non-arrestable action of carrying an unloaded gun in a non-sensitive area more than 1,000 feet from a school.

    Besides, if LEOs are on the way, they probably already know you have guns. Locking them up doesn't exempt you from 12031(e) checks. I doubt they'll let you retrieve your firearm yourself, and they can arrest you if you refuse to allow them to inspect your firearm. So the end effect might be that they get a free look through your trunk (or wherever you stow your gun).
    They may know someone had a gun. Unless 1) we have already provided our credit card and photo ID to a cashier, 2) our license plate was reported in the call after being followed or 3) we are the only person nearby, they will not know who precisely had a gun.

    They don't get to go on mass, warrantless fishing expeditions lacking probable cause just because of a vague report of someone carrying a gun that is no longer visible by the time they arrive.

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    I THINK WOULD BE SMART TO HAVE A LARGE MEET AND GREET OPEN CARRY AND INVITE THE MEDIA WHO KNOWS THEY MIGHT SHOW UP

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    enemigo209 wrote:
    I THINK WOULD BE SMART TO HAVE A LARGE MEET AND GREET OPEN CARRY AND INVITE THE MEDIA WHO KNOWS THEY MIGHT SHOW UP
    OR SHOW UP AT AN EVENT WHICH HAS MEDIA ALREADY THERE

  18. #18
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    enemigo209 wrote:
    enemigo209 wrote:
    I THINK WOULD BE SMART TO HAVE A LARGE MEET AND GREET OPEN CARRY AND INVITE THE MEDIA WHO KNOWS THEY MIGHT SHOW UP
    OR SHOW UP AT AN EVENT WHICH HAS MEDIA ALREADY THERE
    I think it would be better to have our own event than for a group of armed individuals to show up at someone elses event. Unless of course the event was something like a gun show or some other 2A related event.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    Nate and I have been thinking scanner intel can be passed on to those in the field, through SMS paging or Twitter. Advance warning would enable voice/video recorder battery checks, gathering friendly witnesses, or casual tactical retreats from LE harassment by locking up in the trunk or other containers.
    Be careful with that idea... It is unlawful to communicate LE radio comms for the purpose of avoiding or escaping arrest, trial conviction, or punishment of a criminal offense.
    Carrying an unloaded gun is not a crime in most of CA except in the eyes of criminal LEOs. So there is no violation of 636.5, just avoiding being a victim of LEOs committing PC 146, 237, and possibly 182(a)(2), in addition to numerous civil rights violations under color of authority. So by invoking our right against self-incrimination and unlawful search and seizure, we are preventing crime.

    I know you're not suggesting this to avoid any of these things, but a LEO might construe avoiding a 12031(e) check as equivalent to avoiding arrest (since they're investigating an arrestable offense).
    An illegal arrest, for a non-arrestable action of carrying an unloaded gun in a non-sensitive area more than 1,000 feet from a school.

    Besides, if LEOs are on the way, they probably already know you have guns. Locking them up doesn't exempt you from 12031(e) checks. I doubt they'll let you retrieve your firearm yourself, and they can arrest you if you refuse to allow them to inspect your firearm. So the end effect might be that they get a free look through your trunk (or wherever you stow your gun).
    They may know someone had a gun. Unless 1) we have already provided our credit card and photo ID to a cashier, 2) our license plate was reported in the call after being followed or 3) we are the only person nearby, they will not know who precisely had a gun.

    They don't get to go on mass, warrantless fishing expeditions lacking probable cause just because of a vague report of someone carrying a gun that is no longer visible by the time they arrive.
    To clarify, I didn't mean to say that I think your plan would actually be a violation of 636.5. I meant to say that the arresting officer may try to charge you with that.

    Assuming there are any witnesses around, it would be easy for them to figure out that the group went to their cars to stow their guns mere minutes before LE arrived.

    Even so, as long as nobody admits to getting the phone call where the scanner info was communicated, the cops would be hard pressed to prove it ever happened.

    In any case, I'm simply advising caution. I once had a LEO claim it was illegal to repeat the contents of scanner traffic under any circumstances. He wasn't threatening to charge me, he was just warning me as a friend. (I never questioned this until you mentioned it and I actually looked the law up before repeating his FUD.)
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    And I don't want to look it up now but mention that there was the case that a tip that someone has a gun is not RAS for a search.

    If they go and put it in the trunk of the car and have no holsters or other RAS they can not search. . . I am sorry, I am tired otherwise I would site. Cato might know which case that was.

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    Theseus wrote:
    And I don't want to look it up now but mention that there was the case that a tip that someone has a gun is not RAS for a search.

    If they go and put it in the trunk of the car and have no holsters or other RAS they can not search. . . I am sorry, I am tired otherwise I would site. Cato might know which case that was.
    Florida v J.L. - SCOTUS held that an anonymous tip of a concealed weapon is not RAS to search the subject for that weapon.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Theseus wrote:
    And I don't want to look it up now but mention that there was the case that a tip that someone has a gun is not RAS for a search.

    If they go and put it in the trunk of the car and have no holsters or other RAS they can not search. . . I am sorry, I am tired otherwise I would site. Cato might know which case that was.
    Florida v J.L. - SCOTUS held that an anonymous tip of a concealed weapon is not RAS to search the subject for that weapon.
    That and People v. Ubiles where a non-anonymous tip about possession of a gun where the mere possession of a gun isn't guaranteed to be a criminal act is also not RAS for a search.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    Nate and I have been thinking scanner intel can be passed on to those in the field, through SMS paging or Twitter. Advance warning would enable voice/video recorder battery checks, gathering friendly witnesses, or casual tactical retreats from LE harassment by locking up in the trunk or other containers.
    Personally, whenever I am carrying a firearm, I am also carrying my hand held HAM radio. And I scan local LE frequencies as well as my local HAM repeater frequencies. It's just my standard overgrown boyscout modus operandi.


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    MudCamper wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    Nate and I have been thinking scanner intel can be passed on to those in the field, through SMS paging or Twitter. Advance warning would enable voice/video recorder battery checks, gathering friendly witnesses, or casual tactical retreats from LE harassment by locking up in the trunk or other containers.
    Personally, whenever I am carrying a firearm, I am also carrying my hand held HAM radio. And I scan local LE frequencies as well as my local HAM repeater frequencies. It's just my standard overgrown boyscout modus operandi.
    That must really make you look like a cop :P I got that all the time when I carried my former HTs around (one at a time, no gun!)

    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    To clarify, I didn't mean to say that I think your plan would actually be a violation of 636.5. I meant to say that the arresting officer may try to charge you with that.
    There's plenty they try to do to us, most of it illegal. Just one more thing...

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    N6ATF wrote:
    That must really make you look like a cop :P
    Never thought of that. It's however not the case with me, as my goatee, and hat, and clothes all do not fit the cop profile.



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