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Thread: Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky International Airport (CVG) gun ban??

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    I have had a ongoing dialog going with a Lt. Ward at CVG. I plan on flying in and picking up the rest of my party a few days later. Here in Washington I can carry in the common areas of the airport per state law (RCW9.41.300 1E) so I wanted to know if I showed up to get them I could carry on the airport drive or at baggage claim.

    from Shawn Ward <sward@cvgairport.com>
    to Bill Starks <m1gunr@gmail.com>
    date Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:54 AM
    subject Re: Visit to CVG

    Mr. Starks,
    Thanks for your prompt response. I will give you the KRS numbers and
    sections that spell out exactly what you are referring to. They
    reference the areas in which a person is subject to inspection prior to
    entering. You are correct that carrying a weapon into those areas is
    prohibited. We also have an Airport ordinance that extends that
    prohibition to all of the Airport's Terminal buildings. All entry doors
    from the public into the Terminal Buildings are clearly marked with the
    following, "THE POSSESSION OF CONCEALED WEAPONS, EVEN WITH PROPER
    PERMIT, IS HEREBY PROHIBITED IN THIS AREA".

    You are obviously a very intelligent and articulate man. You will
    notice that the posting above mentions only "CONCEALED WEAPONS". A
    handgun worn on the outside of your clothing would not be in violation
    of this. However you certainly realize that the spirit of the law in this
    case would be violated.
    This act may cause "public inconvenience,
    annoyance or alarm" however which would fall under Disorderly Conduct
    KRS525.060.

    In closing, a handgun brought into any of our airport buildings, if
    detected, would draw a great deal of attention from law enforcement.
    This type of attention would not be desired by a law abiding citizen
    like yourself. My recommendation, from one gun carrier to another,
    would be secure your weapon in the trunk of the vehicle you are driving
    when coming to the Airport. By doing this there would be no issue if
    you needed to enter any of the buildings.

    The Kentucky Revised Statutes that refer to all this are the
    following:
    KRS 237.110(12)(g)
    KRS 237.110(12)(a)
    KRS 237.110(12)(e)
    KRS 237.060(2)
    Kenton County Airport Board Ordinance 01.06.15

    Thank You and if there is anything else I can assist you with, please
    do not hesitate to let me know.

    Lt. Shawn Ward
    Patrol Commander
    Cincinnati Northern Kentucky Airport Police
    (859)767-4881


    There is no spirit of the law, there is no gray area. The law says Concealed. OpenCarry is a protected right in Kentucky. Can someone show me where in the KRS that a holstered weapon on a person going about their business is a cause for "public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm" ??


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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    M1,

    Please check your PMs.



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    525.055 Disorderly conduct in the first degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the first degree when he or she:
    (a) In a public place and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly creating a risk thereof:
    1. Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    2. Makes unreasonable noise; or
    3. Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose; and
    (b) Acts in a way described in paragraph (a) of this subsection within three hundred (300) feet of a:
    1. Cemetery during a funeral or burial;
    2. Funeral home during the viewing of a deceased person;
    3. Funeral procession;
    4. Funeral or memorial service; or
    5. Building in which a funeral or memorial service is being conducted; and
    (c) Acts in a way described in paragraph (a) of this subsection at any point in time between one (1) hour prior to the commencement of an event specified in paragraph (b) of this subsection and one (1) hour following its conclusion; and
    (d) Knows that he or she is within three hundred (300) feet of an occasion described in paragraph (b) of this subsection.

    First off you have no intent on causing alarm you would just be carrying your firearm in the open which is a completely legal act. Also you're not doing anything that serves no legitimate purpose, you are carrying for your self defense. That is a legitimate purpose!

    Also there is no "spirit" with any law or ordinance. There is what they can and can't regulate, and what the law says and doesn't say.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Zero,

    Please check your PM's.

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    How is it that the local government thinks it can violate KRS by making an illegal ordinance that limits concealed carry in areas the KRS does not? I thought the state has preemption. As far as I am concerned, their sign is no more than the sign at the mall...they can ask me to eave or get me for criminal tresspassing and nothing else...

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    +1000 Gutshot!

    I'm new to the KRS as they pertain to firearms, but I do study them. And this posting at the airport seems silly, that is, if I'm reading the KRS preemption correctly...

    Seems as if the "Patrol Commander" is making his own rules

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    Good catch. I had to go look it up after i read this. I am thinking about calling and having a civil discussion with the local DA's office in his area.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    gutshot wrote:
    The three KRS paragraphs highlighted in green do not seem to exist.
    I think he meant to reference section 16. However if you look at KRS 237.110 (16) sections (g) & (h) you will see it allows lawful carry in the airport except in the secure areas.

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    The items in green do exist!! There in that "patrol commanders" book of make believelaws..........

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    Fred wrote:
    The items in green do exist!! There in that "patrol commanders" book of make believelaws..........
    That is just about the best response I've ever read on here...

    It's like the Patrol Commander is in his own land...

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    I find it funny that anyone thinks they can regulate where the Commonwealth says they can not. I also tried, without results, to find ordinance 01.06.15. I looked on CVG website and Kenton County website. Even though the airport board is in Kenton County the airport is in Boone County. I have not heard nor can I find any court case about a concealed carry or open carry case by a lawful person case in Boone County. I conceal carry there when picking someone up and I have checked my weapon in my suitcase when flying.
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    I think Walker brought up an interesting idea. Is the airport private or public property? Perhaps we should have a OC lunch at an airport restaurant. I suppose they could still ask us to leave as a restaurant would probably be private property. If the airport is indeed public property, at least we could pack a sack lunch

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    What ordinance is this nut talking about??

    It's pretty nutty that he already threatening you with disorderly conduct for followinbg the law. You might want to find a friendly attorney to write that chair of thge Airport Authority and nice one page letter.

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    I think he believes he can make anything up. Here in KY, the Airport Board or any other municipality, city, county, etc. can pass their own laws/ordinances regulating guns...

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    Here's another reading of the preemption statute:

    65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
    No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.



    According to wiki: CVA "is located in Hebron, unincorporated Boone County, Kentucky, United States and serves the Greater Cincinnati metropolitan area. Despite being located in Boone County, the airport operations are governed by the neighboring Kenton County Airport Board."

    According to manta.com: "Kenton County Airport Board is a private company categorized under Airport and located in Hebron, KY. Our records show it was established in 1947 and incorporated in Kentucky."

    So could it be that the airport is privately owned?

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    The cop told you that carrying concealed in any of the airport buildings is illegal. He also told you that open carrying is ok, but would justifiably draw the ire of police. What is the problem? It's an airport for crying out loud.



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    Walkeraviator wrote:
    How is it that the local government thinks it can violate KRS by making an illegal ordinance that limits concealed carry in areas the KRS does not? I thought the state has preemption. As far as I am concerned, their sign is no more than the sign at the mall...they can ask me to eave or get me for criminal tresspassing and nothing else...
    KRS 237.115 "...units of state and local governments and postsecondary education facilities (colleges, universities, technical schools and community colleges) have the authority to limit the carrying of concealed weapons on property owned or controlled by them."

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    BusinessCards wrote:
    KRS 237.115 "...units of state and local governments and postsecondary education facilities (colleges, universities, technical schools and community colleges) have the authority to limit the carrying of concealed weapons on property owned or controlled by them."
    And the critical text of this statute is: "
    Except as provided in KRS 527.020, the legislative body of a state, city, county, or urban-county government may, by statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance, prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons by licensees in that portion of a building owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government. That portion of a building in which the carrying of concealed deadly weapons is prohibited or limited shall be clearly identified by signs posted at the entrance to the restricted area. The statute or ordinance shall exempt any building used for public housing by private persons, highway rest areas, firing ranges, and private dwellings owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government from any restriction on the carrying or possession of deadly weapons. The statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance shall not specify any criminal penalty for its violation but may specify that persons violating the statute or ordinance may be denied entrance to the building, ordered to leave the building, and if employees of the unit of government, be subject to employee disciplinary measures for violation of the provisions of the statute or ordinance. The provisions of this section shall not be deemed to be a violation of KRS 65.870 if the requirements of this section are followed. The provisions of this section shall not apply to any other unit of government."

    So first the airport needs to identify what "legislative body of a state, city, county, or urban-county government" issued what "statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance" to limit concealed carry.

    Second, the airport needs to admit that as a result of this enactment, open carry is required at the airport.

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    BusinessCards wrote:
    KRS 237.115 "...units of state and local governments and postsecondary education facilities (colleges, universities, technical schools and community colleges) have the authority to limit the carrying of concealed weapons on property owned or controlled by them."
    And the critical text of this statute is: "
    Except as provided in KRS 527.020, the legislative body of a state, city, county, or urban-county government may, by statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance, prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons by licensees in that portion of a building owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government. That portion of a building in which the carrying of concealed deadly weapons is prohibited or limited shall be clearly identified by signs posted at the entrance to the restricted area. The statute or ordinance shall exempt any building used for public housing by private persons, highway rest areas, firing ranges, and private dwellings owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government from any restriction on the carrying or possession of deadly weapons. The statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance shall not specify any criminal penalty for its violation but may specify that persons violating the statute or ordinance may be denied entrance to the building, ordered to leave the building, and if employees of the unit of government, be subject to employee disciplinary measures for violation of the provisions of the statute or ordinance. The provisions of this section shall not be deemed to be a violation of KRS 65.870 if the requirements of this section are followed. The provisions of this section shall not apply to any other unit of government."

    So first the airport needs to identify what "legislative body of a state, city, county, or urban-county government" issued what "statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance" to limit concealed carry.

    Second, the airport needs to admit that as a result of this enactment, open carry is required at the airport.
    And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry. And, I can not find 01.06.15 anywhere, so it may not exist, or, it is a scare tactic which is used by CVG police.
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    BusinessCards wrote:
    The cop told you that carrying concealed in any of the airport buildings is illegal. He also told you that open carrying is ok, but would justifiably draw the ire of police. What is the problem? It's an airport for crying out loud.

    I'm not sure what you mean? If you're saying that the people on this forum are complaining because we can't carry a weapon at the airport, well surely you don't understand the reason behind this forum.

    The problem is vast: This is the U.S. and carrying a firearm is protected by the CONSTITUTION. This is KY where the right to carry a weapon is also protected by our CONSTITUTION. This "Official" also said that any person carrying would be arrested for disorderly conduct. Also, this Official has no legal right make gun laws in KY...I could go on and on...

    I guess it's a good thing that you live in Ohio...



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    hotrod wrote:
    And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry. And, I can not find 01.06.15 anywhere, so it may not exist, or, it is a scare tactic which is used by CVG police.
    Mike nailed the applicable law (asfar as the airport police say) and the restof you have raised the issue thatthe airport does not appear to begovernment owned/leased/controlled.

    BRAVO!!

    The trouble as I see it is at least two (or three) fold:

    1) If the airport is found to be government owned (orleased/controlled), then OC is the way to go - but we've been threatened with DC charges, which although will probably not be sustained, would cost one money, with (as best as I know) little hope of recovering the funds one puts out for representation, and little expectation that the airport police wouldn't do the same thing over and over to others.

    2) If the airport is determined to beprivate entity, then they could ban carry of all sorts.

    3) Either way, my over-the-weekend communications with the President of KC3 (KY Coalition to Carry Concealed)indicate that a) he thinks that the airport is under government authority,b) this is the post 9/11 world and it is an airport after all!,c)he (KC3?) seems to have priorities other than pressuring authorities to lay off DC charges for OC at the airport, d)one's best option would be to simply wait outside the terminal with your gun, open or concealed.

    <sigh> <shakes head>

    On the other hand, I've been surprised at the level of activity and on-point commentary this subject has garnered, so maybe there is hope yet!

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    BB62 wrote:
    hotrod wrote:
    And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry. And, I can not find 01.06.15 anywhere, so it may not exist, or, it is a scare tactic which is used by CVG police.
    Mike nailed the applicable law (asfar as the airport police say) and the restof you have raised the issue thatthe airport does not appear to begovernment owned/leased/controlled.

    BRAVO!!

    The trouble as I see it is at least two (or three) fold:

    1) If the airport is found to be government owned (orleased/controlled), then OC is the way to go - but we've been threatened with DC charges, which although will probably not be sustained, would cost one money, with (as best as I know) little hope of recovering the funds one puts out for representation, and little expectation that the airport police wouldn't do the same thing over and over to others.

    2) If the airport is determined to beprivate entity, then they could ban carry of all sorts.

    3) Either way, my over-the-weekend communications with the President of KC3 (KY Coalition to Carry Concealed)indicate that a) he thinks that the airport is under government authority,b) this is the post 9/11 world and it is an airport after all!,c)he (KC3?) seems to have priorities other than pressuring authorities to lay off DC charges for OC at the airport, d)one's best option would be to simply wait outside the terminal with your gun, open or concealed.

    <sigh> <shakes head>

    On the other hand, I've been surprised at the level of activity and on-point commentary this subject has garnered, so maybe there is hope yet!
    I would take anything KC3 says with a degree of suspect. The president of KC3 and most of the board of directors make me nervous. Their major work has been to allow carry in schools, yet they sight 9/11 as an exemption to state law to carry in an airport. KRS 237 says the only place you can't carry is in the sterile areas of the airport. That sounds like the CVG police are, in there words, circumventing the "spirit" of the law.
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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    hotrod wrote:
    I would take anything KC3 says with a degree of suspect. The president of KC3 and most of the board of directors make me nervous...
    Why do you say that?



    hotrod wrote:

    ...Their major work has been to allow carry in schools, yet they sight (cite) 9/11 as an exemption to state law to carry in an airport. KRS 237 says the only place you can't carry is in the sterile areas of the airport. That sounds like the CVG police are, in there words, circumventing the "spirit" of the law.
    Yeah, but the status of the airport is what is key. Has the legislature intentionally or unintentially created a conflict? Is the airport considered quasi-govermental (the governor appoints the board chairman)? Is the airport private property and the legislature has removed the property owner's right to post?

    I could go on and on, but I think I've summarized the issues well in my previous post.



    Two gentle suggestions - don't quote the entirety of a previous post unncessarily, and use the standard 2 size text.

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    hotrod wrote:
    And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry.
    Why do you say this? The airport board appears to be an extension of Kenton County - see http://www.kentoncounty.org/boards_a...ort_board.html

    Can somebody from KY check the Kenton County ordinances to see if they have an airport related ordinance??

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    Mike wrote:
    hotrod wrote:
    And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry.
    Why do you say this? The airport board appears to be an extension of Kenton County - see http://www.kentoncounty.org/boards_a...ort_board.html

    Can somebody from KY check the Kenton County ordinances to see if they have an airport related ordinance??
    It strikes me that the airport may be a quasi-governmental entity, much like county fairs are in Ohio. County fair boards like to claim they are govermental entities to avoid liability (and disallow carry in their buildings) when it suits them, and call themselves private entities when it suits them (I can't think of an example right now).

    This web page may be informative, as well as a sentence found on the "Myths and Facts" link:

    http://www.cvgairport.com/about/leadership.html

    "Myth: The airport generates revenue for local governments.

    Fact:
    CVG is fully supported by aviation revenue. By law, revenue generated by the airport must be spent in support of airport operations and projects.

    Other than payroll taxes, CVG does not contribute revenue to local government nor does it receive any. CVG’s funding is supplied by airlines and tenants, and through fees that are included in the cost of airline tickets. "

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