Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky International Airport (CVG) gun ban??

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hotrod wrote:

And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry. And, I can not find 01.06.15 anywhere, so it may not exist, or, it is a scare tactic which is used by CVG police.

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Mike nailed the applicable law (asfar as the airport police say) and the restof you have raised the issue thatthe airport does not appear to begovernment owned/leased/controlled.

BRAVO!!

The trouble as I see it is at least two (or three) fold:

1) If the airport is found to be government owned (orleased/controlled), then OC is the way to go - but we've been threatened with DC charges, which although will probably not be sustained, would cost one money, with (as best as I know) little hope of recovering the funds one puts out for representation, and little expectation that the airport police wouldn't do the same thing over and over to others.

2) If the airport is determined to beprivate entity, then they could ban carry of all sorts.

3) Either way, my over-the-weekend communications with the President of KC3 (KY Coalition to Carry Concealed)indicate that a) he thinks that the airport is under government authority,b) this is the post 9/11 world and it is an airport after all!,c)he (KC3?) seems to have priorities other than pressuring authorities to lay off DC charges for OC at the airport, d)one's best option would be to simply wait outside the terminal with your gun, open or concealed.

<sigh> <shakes head>

On the other hand, I've been surprised at the level of activity and on-point commentary this subject has garnered, so maybe there is hope yet!

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BB62 wrote:

hotrod wrote:

And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry. And, I can not find 01.06.15 anywhere, so it may not exist, or, it is a scare tactic which is used by CVG police.

Click to expand...

Mike nailed the applicable law (asfar as the airport police say) and the restof you have raised the issue thatthe airport does not appear to begovernment owned/leased/controlled.

BRAVO!!

The trouble as I see it is at least two (or three) fold:

1) If the airport is found to be government owned (orleased/controlled), then OC is the way to go - but we've been threatened with DC charges, which although will probably not be sustained, would cost one money, with (as best as I know) little hope of recovering the funds one puts out for representation, and little expectation that the airport police wouldn't do the same thing over and over to others.

2) If the airport is determined to beprivate entity, then they could ban carry of all sorts.

3) Either way, my over-the-weekend communications with the President of KC3 (KY Coalition to Carry Concealed)indicate that a) he thinks that the airport is under government authority,b) this is the post 9/11 world and it is an airport after all!,c)he (KC3?) seems to have priorities other than pressuring authorities to lay off DC charges for OC at the airport, d)one's best option would be to simply wait outside the terminal with your gun, open or concealed.

<sigh> <shakes head>

On the other hand, I've been surprised at the level of activity and on-point commentary this subject has garnered, so maybe there is hope yet!

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I would take anything KC3 says with a degree of suspect. The president of KC3 and most of the board of directors make me nervous. Their major work has been to allow carry in schools, yet they sight 9/11 as an exemption to state law to carry in an airport. KRS 237 says the only place you can't carry is in the sterile areas of the airport. That sounds like the CVG police are, in there words, circumventing the "spirit" of the law.

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hotrod wrote:

I would take anything KC3 says with a degree of suspect. The president of KC3 and most of the board of directors make me nervous...

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Why do you say that?



hotrod wrote:

...Their major work has been to allow carry in schools, yet they sight (cite) 9/11 as an exemption to state law to carry in an airport. KRS 237 says the only place you can't carry is in the sterile areas of the airport. That sounds like the CVG police are, in there words, circumventing the "spirit" of the law.

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Yeah, but the status of the airport is what is key. Has the legislature intentionally or unintentially created a conflict? Is the airport considered quasi-govermental (the governor appoints the board chairman)? Is the airport private property and the legislature has removed the property owner's right to post?

I could go on and on, but I think I've summarized the issues well in my previous post.



Two gentle suggestions - don't quote the entirety of a previous post unncessarily, and use the standard 2 size text.

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hotrod wrote:

And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry.

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Why do you say this? The airport board appears to be an extension of Kenton County - see http://www.kentoncounty.org/boards_and_commissions/kenton_county_airport_board.html

Can somebody from KY check the Kenton County ordinances to see if they have an airport related ordinance??

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Mike wrote:

hotrod wrote:

And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry.

Click to expand...

Why do you say this? The airport board appears to be an extension of Kenton County - see http://www.kentoncounty.org/boards_and_commissions/kenton_county_airport_board.html

Can somebody from KY check the Kenton County ordinances to see if they have an airport related ordinance??

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It strikes me that the airport may be a quasi-governmental entity, much like county fairs are in Ohio. County fair boards like to claim they are govermental entities to avoid liability (and disallow carry in their buildings) when it suits them, and call themselves private entities when it suits them (I can't think of an example right now).

This web page may be informative, as well as a sentence found on the "Myths and Facts" link:

http://www.cvgairport.com/about/leadership.html

"Myth: The airport generates revenue for local governments.

Fact: CVG is fully supported by aviation revenue. By law, revenue generated by the airport must be spent in support of airport operations and projects.

Other than payroll taxes, CVG does not contribute revenue to local government nor does it receive any. CVG’s funding is supplied by airlines and tenants, and through fees that are included in the cost of airline tickets. "

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Mike wrote:

hotrod wrote:

And the Kenton County Airport Board is not a division of any government body and therefore can not issue an ordinance denying the right to carry.

Click to expand...

Why do you say this? The airport board appears to be an extension of Kenton County - see http://www.kentoncounty.org/boards_and_commissions/kenton_county_airport_board.html

Can somebody from KY check the Kenton County ordinances to see if they have an airport related ordinance??

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I have already perused the county ordinance for Kenton County and none exist. Also Mike, remember that the airport in its entirety is in Boone County Kentucky. I could find no ordinance there, either. The Airport Board is appointed by Kenton County Fiscal Court, but, I can not find where the airport is owned by any government agency.

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Kenton County Airport Board Business Information
Isthisyourcompany?
Kenton County Airport Board is a private company categorized under Airport and located in Hebron, KY. Our records show it was established in 1947 and incorporated in Kentucky. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $110,300,000 and employs a staff of approximately 417.

This is what I have found. If correct, the board is a privately owned company and would only be able to control conceal carry. And conceal carry would not have any criminal attachment if you were found to have a weapon. You would be asked to leave.

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gutshot wrote:

KC3 is Ky Coalition to Carry Concealed. I don't find it at all surprising that their interests and those of Open Carry Dot Org do not coinside at all times.

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It's unnecessary and wasteful of bandwidth to quote the entirety of a previous post(s) merely to post a two sentence reply.



To respond to your thoughts: yeah, you're right, having a police officer acknowledge in writing that you "might" be charged for doing something perfectly legal, well, that couldn't possibly have ANY influence on how officers might treat someone legally carryingconcealed, now could it? Nah, just because it's related to OC, well, hey, that's not OUR mission!!

So, I guess KC3 must exist to defend privileges, not rights, eh? Certainly, if one doesn't have the right to OC, then any form of bearing arms becomes a privilege to be modifed or removed at the whim of those in power - but, HEY, no biggie right? Privileges matter, and have no relation to rights, RIGHT?

And then there's this, by a poster who identifies himself as "Charles Riggs, KC3 board of directors, co-founder KC3":

"...While open carry is not a part of our primary mission, I used to carry openly and still do on some occasions as do other members of our board of directors. ANYTHING that supports our right to be armed for personal defense is something that we support, so we'll make sure that our members are informed about this open carry event as soon as the details are hammered out. It'll be posted on our blog at http://kc3blog.blogspot.com [/]http://kc3blog.blogspot.com] and if you'll continue to reach me at dvcnra45@dcr.net we can work with you if you want us to..."

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum25/26530-6.html



I for one am glad that at least someone at KC3 seems to "get it".

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hotrod wrote:

Kenton County Airport Board Business Information
Isthisyourcompany?
Kenton County Airport Board is a private company categorized under Airport and located in Hebron, KY. Our records show it was established in 1947 and incorporated in Kentucky. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $110,300,000 and employs a staff of approximately 417.

This is what I have found.

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What is the source of this information - does not sound right to me - every major airport I know of is controlled by the government.

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Mike wrote:

...The airport board appears to be an extension of Kenton County - see http://www.kentoncounty.org/boards_and_commissions/kenton_county_airport_board.html

Can somebody from KY check the Kenton County ordinances to see if they have an airport related ordinance??

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MIKE,

See page 132 of the pdf (page 113 of the document):

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/lrcpubs/Ib115a.pdf

the first of which are "Local Air Boards".

"State law allows county government to create a number of semi-independent authorities to perform specific public functions. The degree of independence of such authorities in the management of their own affairs falls between that of a county department and a special district government..."


Do you have additional questions?

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Mike wrote:

hotrod wrote:

Kenton County Airport Board Business Information
Isthisyourcompany?
Kenton County Airport Board is a private company categorized under Airport and located in Hebron, KY. Our records show it was established in 1947 and incorporated in Kentucky. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $110,300,000 and employs a staff of approximately 417.

This is what I have found.

Click to expand...

What is the source of this information - does not sound right to me - every major airport I know of is controlled by the government.

Click to expand...

Kentucky Secretary of State business listings

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BB62 wrote:

Do you have additional questions?

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What is the exact status of the airport in question? Are they an extension of the county or not?

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Quoting from BB62 -
"3) Either way, my over-the-weekend communications with the President of KC3 (KY Coalition to Carry Concealed) indicate that a) he thinks that the airport is under government authority, b) this is the post 9/11 world and it is an airport after all!, c) he (KC3?) seems to have priorities other than pressuring authorities to lay off DC charges for OC at the airport, d) one's best option would be to simply wait outside the terminal with your gun, open or concealed."

As a member of the board of directors of KC3 and one of the founders, I can tell you that we most assuredly do NOT agree with the reply that you received from the president of KC3, and that this is now a point of discussion for the board.
We support ALL of our rights - period. I carried openly before some of the participants on this forum were born, from 1979 to 1996 when the CCDW law was passed. I still carry openly on occasion when it suits me and suits the environment, or need to remind people that it's legal.
Some of the members of this forum are making great leaps to assumptions about KC3 without knowing the least bit about our organization, which is sad. We support the right to be armed for the defense of self and others, including the state as needed, without reservation. Any other position or statement by anyone affiliated with KC3 is THEIR opinion and NOT the position of KC3.

Quoting hotrod -
"I would take anything KC3 says with a degree of suspect (sic). The president of KC3 and most of the board of directors make me nervous. Their major work has been to allow carry in schools, yet they sight (sic) 9/11 as an exemption to state law to carry in an airport. KRS 237 says the only place you can't carry is in the sterile areas of the airport. That sounds like the CVG police are, in there (sic) words, circumventing the "spirit" of the law"

KC3 has been out in front in the work to further our rights since 1995, openly and under our own names, not behind pen names on bulletin boards. The public knows who we are because we've been in the public eye, at the committee hearings and in the media, giving interviews and writing editorials. If that makes someone 'nervous' well, I don't know what to respond.
Anyone who seeks to KNOW what we do, instead of making assumptions about our work or our positions, KNOWS that we defend the rights of all citizens who carry openly or concealed. Our PRIMARY mission is to further concealed carry, but we promote and publicize open carry events when we know of them. The erroneous position of ONE member of the board is NOT representative of KC3 as an organization, and our record will demonstrate that to anyone who cares to examine it with an objective eye.

Quoting gutshot -
"KC3 is Ky Coalition to Carry Concealed. I don't find it at all surprising that their interests and those of Open Carry Dot Org do not coinside at all times."

If you live in Kentucky and don't know who we are and know our positions, they you haven't been working with us to preserve our rights. If you don't live in Kentucky and are commenting on our positions without knowing what they are, then you should take the time to find out what we've already done for ALL of you who carry firearms in Kentucky, not just for CCDW.
Gents, I can't speak for KC3 on this issue, but I can tell you that for MYSELF, I will do everything to see to it that KC3 supports the right to carry openly in accordance with the law, for as long as I'm affiliated with the group.
I will also see to it that we look at getting our attorney involved with this particular issue. Based on the letter from the officer at CVG, they have plainly made a case for an action against them for official misconduct and harassment. They can't choose what they like and don't like, as some of you have pointed out already.
When the group OpenCarry decides to hold a public demonstration and action to carry openly into the airport in a statement in support of our basic rights, I will do all that I can to support and publicize that effort. So you guys let us know when YOU'RE ready to act and we'll be there to assist YOUR group in the effort - Charles Riggs, co-founder, member of the board of directors, Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed.

"Fight back! The criminal does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back!" - Col. Jeff Cooper

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Old dog in the fight wrote:

Quoting from BB62 -
"3) Either way, my over-the-weekend communications with the President of KC3 (KY Coalition to Carry Concealed) indicate that a) he thinks that the airport is under government authority, b) this is the post 9/11 world and it is an airport after all!, c) he (KC3?) seems to have priorities other than pressuring authorities to lay off DC charges for OC at the airport, d) one's best option would be to simply wait outside the terminal with your gun, open or concealed."

As a member of the board of directors of KC3 and one of the founders, I can tell you that we most assuredly do NOT agree with the reply that you received from the president of KC3, and that this is now a point of discussion for the board.
We support ALL of our rights - period. I carried openly before some of the participants on this forum were born, from 1979 to 1996 when the CCDW law was passed. I still carry openly on occasion when it suits me and suits the environment, or need to remind people that it's legal.
Some of the members of this forum are making great leaps to assumptions about KC3 without knowing the least bit about our organization, which is sad. We support the right to be armed for the defense of self and others, including the state as needed, without reservation. Any other position or statement by anyone affiliated with KC3 is THEIR opinion and NOT the position of KC3.

Quoting hotrod -
"I would take anything KC3 says with a degree of suspect (sic). The president of KC3 and most of the board of directors make me nervous. Their major work has been to allow carry in schools, yet they sight (sic) 9/11 as an exemption to state law to carry in an airport. KRS 237 says the only place you can't carry is in the sterile areas of the airport. That sounds like the CVG police are, in there (sic) words, circumventing the "spirit" of the law"

KC3 has been out in front in the work to further our rights since 1995, openly and under our own names, not behind pen names on bulletin boards. The public knows who we are because we've been in the public eye, at the committee hearings and in the media, giving interviews and writing editorials. If that makes someone 'nervous' well, I don't know what to respond.
Anyone who seeks to KNOW what we do, instead of making assumptions about our work or our positions, KNOWS that we defend the rights of all citizens who carry openly or concealed. Our PRIMARY mission is to further concealed carry, but we promote and publicize open carry events when we know of them. The erroneous position of ONE member of the board is NOT representative of KC3 as an organization, and our record will demonstrate that to anyone who cares to examine it with an objective eye.

Quoting gutshot -
"KC3 is Ky Coalition to Carry Concealed. I don't find it at all surprising that their interests and those of Open Carry Dot Org do not coinside at all times."

If you live in Kentucky and don't know who we are and know our positions, they you haven't been working with us to preserve our rights. If you don't live in Kentucky and are commenting on our positions without knowing what they are, then you should take the time to find out what we've already done for ALL of you who carry firearms in Kentucky, not just for CCDW.
Gents, I can't speak for KC3 on this issue, but I can tell you that for MYSELF, I will do everything to see to it that KC3 supports the right to carry openly in accordance with the law, for as long as I'm affiliated with the group.
I will also see to it that we look at getting our attorney involved with this particular issue. Based on the letter from the officer at CVG, they have plainly made a case for an action against them for official misconduct and harassment. They can't choose what they like and don't like, as some of you have pointed out already.
When the group OpenCarry decides to hold a public demonstration and action to carry openly into the airport in a statement in support of our basic rights, I will do all that I can to support and publicize that effort. So you guys let us know when YOU'RE ready to act and we'll be there to assist YOUR group in the effort - Charles Riggs, co-founder, member of the board of directors, Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed.

"Fight back! The criminal does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back!" - Col. Jeff Cooper

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What I know of KC3 is that when I was asked to join as a board member allthat was of concern was carrying of weapons in school zone and how often I could work the gun shows. My interest were in areas such as the airport carry and where allowed to carry by law, but have been posted no carry. The upkeep of the KC3.com website has been terrible. I do believe in the mid 90's through about 2001 that KC3 was a voice for the Commonwealth concealed carry, but, have not been as active and have had division on the board.When I see KC3 helping through legislative contact and lobbying on our behalf with things such as airport carry, I will come backand spendmy hard earned dollars supporting them and helping with my time.

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Quoting hotrod - "]What I know of KC3 is that when I was asked to join as a board member all that was of concern was carrying of weapons in school zone and how often I could work the gun shows.  My interest were in areas such as the airport carry and where allowed to carry by law, but have been posted no carry.  The upkeep of the KC3.com website has been terrible.  I do believe in the mid 90's through about 2001 that KC3 was a voice for the Commonwealth concealed carry, but, have not been as active and have had division on the board.  When I see KC3 helping through legislative contact and lobbying on our behalf with things such as airport carry, I will come back and spend my hard earned dollars supporting them and helping with my time."

There have been many people who've been asked to serve on the board just as you were, and thankfully they declined the offer, just as you did. Sometimes some of the board members were too anxious to add a member to the board without realizing how little that person might contribute to the job.
KC3 did go through a very bad period when the board wasn't doing much of anything, but those persons from northern Kentucky who dragged down the group are gone, and the ones working on the board now are much more concerned with getting work done. In the last year we've made counties take down anti-CCDW signs, started a blog, hired an attorney and made the Kentucky Derby/Thunder Over Louisville people take down their anti-gun rules from their web page. We've reorganized our data base and our computer support, and gotten involved with a professional group to manage our web page, which is now undergoing a complete revision. That's more than the previous board members got done in five years.
It's very easy to sit on the outside and criticize but much harder to get inside and accomplish vital tasks. You chose not to help. That speaks of who you are, not what KC3 has done, is doing or will do in future.
Attitudes such as yours represent the factionalization and divisiveness that so often afflict the personal rights effort. Rather than get involved and see what can be done to fix things, you've sat on the outside making criticisms.
We'll carry on and if you decide to give us a hand or support, great, but we WILL carry on.
And we WILL support open carry and EVERY effort to preserve and expand our personal defense rights! - Charles

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Old dog in the fight wrote:

Quoting hotrod - "]What I know of KC3 is that when I was asked to join as a board member allthat was of concern was carrying of weapons in school zone and how often I could work the gun shows. My interest were in areas such as the airport carry and where allowed to carry by law, but have been posted no carry. The upkeep of the KC3.com website has been terrible. I do believe in the mid 90's through about 2001 that KC3 was a voice for the Commonwealth concealed carry, but, have not been as active and have had division on the board.When I see KC3 helping through legislative contact and lobbying on our behalf with things such as airport carry, I will come backand spendmy hard earned dollars supporting them and helping with my time."

There have been many people who've been asked to serve on the board just as you were, and thankfully they declined the offer, just as you did. Sometimes some of the board members were too anxious to add a member to the board without realizing how little that person might contribute to the job.
KC3 did go through a very bad period when the board wasn't doing much of anything, but those persons from northern Kentucky who dragged down the group are gone, and the ones working on the board now are much more concerned with getting work done. In the last year we've made counties take down anti-CCDW signs, started a blog, hired an attorney and made the Kentucky Derby/Thunder Over Louisville people take down their anti-gun rules from their web page. We've reorganized our data base and our computer support, and gotten involved with a professional group to manage our web page, which is now undergoing a complete revision. That's more than the previous board members got done in five years.
It's very easy to sit on the outside and criticize but much harder to get inside and accomplish vital tasks. You chose not to help. That speaks of who you are, not what KC3 has done, is doing or will do in future.
Attitudes such as yours represent the factionalization and divisiveness that so often afflict the personal rights effort. Rather than get involved and see what can be done to fix things, you've sat on the outside making criticisms.
We'll carry on and if you decide to give us a hand or support, great, but we WILL carry on.
And we WILL support open carry and EVERY effort to preserve and expand our personal defense rights! - Charles

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I declined due to the self righteous attitude within the organization. Failing to accept constructive criticism. It appears it still exist. Sorry to have come off point. The carry of weapons at the airport is question at hand. Not my feeling toward KC3. Hopefully what Charles has said will come to fruition.

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Mike wrote:

BB62 wrote:

Do you have additional questions?

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What is the exact status of the airport in question? Are they an extension of the county or not?

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I'm honestlynot sure how to answer your question.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I think you are better able than I to decipher thelink I provided previously on the structure of various "boards". My take is that the airport is quasi-governmental.

If there are specific questions that you would like put to the board, the county, etc. please spell them out - but my concern is that they will either dodge and weave, simplychoose not to answer, or claim that they are whatever type of entity "benefits" them most for the circumstance. This is exactly the tactic that various Ohio fair boards used regarding CCW.

It seems likeOld dog in the fightmay get on the issue you've raised.

Mike -Let me know if there is more you want me to do.

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So I wrote to Lt. Ward on the 4th and again on the 6th. Still no response on the statutes posted by him for correction....

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I looked into Bluegrass Airport and the KY auditor says, "The Lexington-Fayette Urban County Airport Corporation, a public non-profit organization and a component unit of Lexington city government, owns the airport. The airport board, appointed by the mayor, oversees the airport and its $18 million in annual expenditures."

Don't know if Cincy has the same setup.

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langzaiguy wrote:

I looked into Bluegrass Airport and the KY auditor says, "The Lexington-Fayette Urban County Airport Corporation, a public non-profit organization and a component unit of Lexington city government, owns the airport. The airport board, appointed by the mayor, oversees the airport and its $18 million in annual expenditures."

Don't know if Cincy has the same setup.

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OK, good work!

No we need to scour the ordiances of lexington City and see if they have any ordinance banning gun carry at this airport.