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Thread: How much access does the gun board have??

  1. #1
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    I plead to a possetion of reeferf a couple of years ago, but was charged under the 7411 law in Kazoo. Since I met all of their requirements that is not supposed to be on my public record. Does the gun board have access to that??? Will that disqualify me??

    New poster here, but I love this site!!!!Wish you folks didn't have jobs so you had more time to post!!!!

    Recant. I am glad that all who have jobs have jobs.!!!!! Just wish you all could post more!!

    See ya later with more questions!!!











































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    welcome to to our forum I dont think they should be able to c it.

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    Welcome, Are you gonna be able to come down to Westfield park in Portage on the 9Th? Looks like we will have a good group there. Have a good one, Bob
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    Page 3 of the CPL application specifically asks about controlled substance convictions. If you were convicted but its not supposed to be on your record, it doesn't change the fact that you were convicted.

    Page 4 of the CPL application asks if you are an unlawful user of a controlled substance.

    If you were finger printed for the possession charge, it most likely will show on your criminal history.

    At the bottom on the CPL application, it states that making a false statement on the application is a four year felony.

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    My suggestion would be to head on over to the Legal Beagle, and PM Jim Simmons. He's a lawyer, and will gladly answer your question.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  6. #6
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    Here's the statute, It looks to me like the only way they are allowed to access your info is if you are caught with a controlled substance or if you are in the employ of the state. If you were denied a license you could appeal for not being a user or an employee.


    PUBLIC HEALTH CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 368 of 1978

    333.7411 Probation of individual with no previous conviction; entering adjudication of guilt upon violation of probation; discharge and dismissal without adjudication of guilt; nonpublic record of arrest and discharge and dismissal; effect of civil fine for first violation; requiring individual to attend course of instruction or rehabilitation program; failure to complete instruction or program as violation of probation; screening and assessment; participation in rehabilitative programs; payment of costs; failure to complete program as violation of probation.
    Sec. 7411.
    (1) When an individual who has not previously been convicted of an offense under this article or under any statute of the United States or of any state relating to narcotic drugs, coca leaves, marihuana, or stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic drugs, pleads guilty to or is found guilty of possession of a controlled substance under section 7403(2)(a)(v), 7403(2)(b), (c), or (d), or of use of a controlled substance under section 7404, or possession or use of an imitation controlled substance under section 7341 for a second time, the court, without entering a judgment of guilt with the consent of the accused, may defer further proceedings and place the individual on probation upon terms and conditions that shall include, but are not limited to, payment of a probation supervision fee as prescribed in section 3c of chapter XI of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 771.3c. The terms and conditions of probation may include participation in a drug treatment court under chapter 10A of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.1060 to 600.1082. Upon violation of a term or condition, the court may enter an adjudication of guilt and proceed as otherwise provided. Upon fulfillment of the terms and conditions, the court shall discharge the individual and dismiss the proceedings. Discharge and dismissal under this section shall be without adjudication of guilt and, except as provided in subsection (2)(b), is not a conviction for purposes of this section or for purposes of disqualifications or disabilities imposed by law upon conviction of a crime, including the additional penalties imposed for second or subsequent convictions under section 7413. There may be only 1 discharge and dismissal under this section as to an individual.
    (2) The records and identifications division of the department of state police shall retain a nonpublic record of an arrest and discharge or dismissal under this section. This record shall be furnished to any or all of the following:
    (a) To a court, police agency, or office of a prosecuting attorney upon request for the purpose of showing that a defendant in a criminal action involving the possession or use of a controlled substance, or an imitation controlled substance as defined in section 7341, covered in this article has already once utilized this section.
    (b) To a court, police agency, or prosecutor upon request for the purpose of determining whether the defendant in a criminal action is eligible for discharge and dismissal of proceedings by a drug treatment court under section 1076(4) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.1076.
    (c) To the state department of corrections, a law enforcement agency, a court, or the office of a prosecuting attorney upon request of the department, law enforcement agency, court, or office of a prosecuting attorney, subject to all of the following conditions:
    (i) At the time of the request, the individual is an employee of the department, law enforcement agency, court, or office of prosecuting attorney or an applicant for employment with the department, law enforcement agency, court, or office of prosecuting attorney.
    (ii) If the individual is an employee of the department, law enforcement agency, court, or prosecuting attorney, the date on which the court placed the individual on probation occurred after March 25, 2002.
    (iii) The record shall be used by the department of corrections, law enforcement agency, court, or prosecuting attorney only to determine whether an employee has violated his or her conditions of employment or whether an applicant meets criteria for employment.
    (3) For purposes of this section, a person subjected to a civil fine for a first violation of section 7341(4) shall not be considered to have previously been convicted of an offense under this article.
    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), if an individual is convicted of a violation of this article, other than a violation of section 7401(2)(a)(i) to (iv) or section 7403(2)(a)(i) to (iv), the court as part of the sentence, during the period of confinement or the period of probation, or both, may require the individual to attend a course of instruction or rehabilitation program approved by the department on the medical, psychological, and social effects of the misuse of drugs. The court may order the individual to pay a fee, as approved by the director, for the instruction or program. Failure to complete the instruction or program shall be considered a violation of the terms of probation.
    (5) If an individual is convicted of a second violation of section 7341(4), before imposing sentence under subsection (1), the court shall order the person to undergo screening and assessment by a person or agency designated by the office of substance abuse services, to determine whether the person is likely to benefit from rehabilitative services, including alcohol or drug education and alcohol or drug treatment programs. As part of the sentence imposed under subsection (1), the court may order the person to participate in and successfully complete 1 or more appropriate rehabilitative programs. The person shall pay for the costs of the screening, assessment, and rehabilitative services. Failure to complete a program shall be considered a violation of the terms of the probation.

    History: 1978, Act 368, Eff. Sept. 30, 1978 ;-- Am. 1984, Act 347, Eff. Mar. 29, 1985 ;-- Am. 1988, Act 144, Imd. Eff. June 6, 1988 ;-- Am. 1993, Act 169, Eff. Sept. 30, 1993 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 79, Imd. Eff. Mar. 25, 2002 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 225, Eff. Jan. 1, 2005
    Popular Name: Act 368


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    333.7411 isn't on the prohibited list in the Concealed Pistol License Guide, so you should be OK for Q#3. Btw, the closest is 333.7403. If 333.7411 is a misdemeanor, you should be OK for Q#1.

    As far as if they will see it? You should assume they will. Having said that, you will be answering "No" to questions #1 and #3 given the info you've supplied, so I'd say you're good to go.



    Add: I know of someone who had a possession charge, more than 8+ years ago, at age 17, who has a CPL application in process. Likewise, the person plead guilty and the charge was to be expunged upon discharge from probation. The person never checked back with the court to make sure it was expunged, but during a recent LTP application, the charge did not show up.


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    An LTP application is free, so you could apply for an LTP and see if it shows up. If it does you have your answer. If it does not, the you'd have to find out if the CPL background check is more thorough and in what way to determine if it might show up there. But I'd think the LTP process should be a good guide.


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    warrior1978 wrote:
    Page 3 of the CPL application specifically asks about controlled substance convictions. If you were convicted but its not supposed to be on your record, it doesn't change the fact that you were convicted.

    Page 4 of the CPL application asks if you are an unlawful user of a controlled substance.

    If you were finger printed for the possession charge, it most likely will show on your criminal history.

    At the bottom on the CPL application, it states that making a false statement on the application is a four year felony.
    Warrior1978, I'm not sure what questions you're referring to because the CPL app is a one page questionnaire. Are you referring to the additional pages titled the "Concealed Pistol License Guide"? Here is the current application:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ri-012_7736_7.pdf

    Page 2 of the CPL Guide (page 3 of the pdf) asks if there was a conviction under 333.7403, specifically. The board isn't asking for any and all related MCL convictions. The OP specifically states he plead to 333.7411, NOT listed in the CPL Guide.

    Also, an unlawful user a few years ago does not mean an unlawful user today. This may lead to a denial and it may not. It may just lead to a visit with the gun board prior to approval.

    I agree with your fingerprint comment, the OP should assume the record will be discovered.


  10. #10
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    Although not specifically being grounds for denial, they may at least ask you about it. I had a friend who had completed probation and the charge was supposed to be dropped, which it was. When he went to Kent County's Gun Board, he says he was asked about it. He has his CPL, so he must have answered so as to not raise their concerns.

    When I went in they brought up two things from my past. Although they were not anything listed in the law, they can still ask you. I would just answer honestly if they ask and realize that they are, in all likelihood trying to gauge your response. I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem.

    PS They even asked me why I had gotten two speeding tickets in one day 5 years before I even applied for my CPL... the cop wrote I had a "attitude" (same cop/different road both times). He just didn't believe me on the 1st ticket that the sign was illegal, the second was because he decided to follow me around after I received the 1st ticket until he could find something to write a ticket... I did fight both and won, which I reminded the board...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    CoonDog wrote:
    An LTP application is free, so you could apply for an LTP and see if it shows up.* If it does you have your answer.* If it does not, the you'd have to find out if the CPL background check is more thorough and in what way to determine if it might show up there.* But I'd think the LTP process should be a good guide.
    The CPL background check is definitely more comprehensive.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I was asked about some dropped stuff from 1995 when I went before the gun board last year. They asked me about it and I simply said ALL charges were dropped. They asked "but were you arrested for it"? I replied YES...and ALL charges were dropped. They handed me my license and I was PROMPTLY on my way. That was in Macomb County.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    I want to know about the "Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness, even if you are not curently being treated for that illness?"thing.

    There are very few people I know who served in the military during combat and were not diagnosed with depression at the very least. What exactly qualifies as a mental illness?

    I have already submitted my application and checked the "yes" box. I guess we'll see.

    If I am denied am I entitled to a refund of my $105 fee?
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    ttt
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    I heard that your first possesion of marijuana, MIP (Minor in Possesion),or several over petty charges (if it is your first offense) will be dropped from your record after you do what the court tells you to do (probation, community service, etc). I grew up with several people that had several different types of these kind of charges and they were exponged from their record after they handled their business.

    IMO, I would call the court that charged you with this and get it clarified. Explain your situation to them.

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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    I want to know about the "Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness, even if you are not curently being treated for that illness?"thing.

    There are very few people I know who served in the military during combat and were not diagnosed with depression at the very least. What exactly qualifies as a mental illness?

    I have already submitted my application and checked the "yes" box. I guess we'll see.

    If I am denied am I entitled to a refund of my $105 fee?
    The law is pretty specific here, but there is a "catch all" that could bite you. To answer your refund question, the answer is "No." You are paying an application fee... whether the application is approved or denied; they still keep the fee.

    I don't have the energy to dig up all the laws regarding this (you can check them for yourself), but regarding mental illness... they are basically looking to see if you have:

    A) Been involuntarily committed to a mental health institution. This is different than being taken into custody to be evaluated. An evaluation is a lot like an arrest... it means nothing unless a court confirms the "charge". In order to be committed, two clinical psychologists must evaluate you, then you must go before a probate court for a Judge to decide if you should be committed or not.

    B) If you are CURRENTLY diagnosed with any mental health issues... or taking medication for such. Prozac, Zoloft, etc... if you are currently taking any of these, you will probably be denied. If you've taken them in the past, or plan to take them in the future, it's not a subject for debate (I believe).

    The "catch-all", that I mentioned, is that the Board has the legal authority to decide if they feel you are a danger. This can be based on a broad range of things... but it must be based on a totality of circumstances. They cannot, however, "diagnose" you. In other words, they can't say, "You're crazy... you're not getting approved." They can, though, say "We feel you're dangerous... you're not getting approved." Truthfully, I don't see much of a difference between the two. I understand why the law exists... but I think it needs to be far more specific than just giving folks broad power to deem you "dangerous" based on circumstantial situations. If you lose your temper and tell someone to eff off... you could be considered dangerous, even though they are only words (and are protected under 1A).

    Bottom line... if they don't want you to have a CPL, they can deny you on that basis. You can, however, appeal the decision... at which point, they would have to clearly articulate their rationale for the denial.

    This is how I understand things, at least. I could be wrong.

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    Veritas wrote:
    Bottom line... if they don't want you to have a CPL, they can deny you on that basis. You can, however, appeal the decision... at which point, they would have to clearly articulate their rationale for the denial.

    This is how I understand things, at least. I could be wrong.
    Sounds about right to me!

  18. #18
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    This is pretty much what I thought. I entertained the thought of not admitting to being diagnosed as it was only depression and I am not taking any meds and have no plans to do so, but did not want to risk comitting a felony if they considered that a "menal illness".

    I agree that the language needs to be FAR more specific. I sort of thought I would not be entitled to a refund of the application fee, but it was worth asking.

    I am perfectly well adjusted and am by no means a threat to anyone (except BG). My hope is that they will ask me to appear before the board to discuss the issue and they will see that I am not a threat and issue the license.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
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    http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

    16.Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment

    I don't think you're going to be approved. They probably won't even call you before them for a meeting. If you have been diagnosed with a mental illness at the time the application is made, it is cause to deny.

    Going before the board, as I understand it, is to clarify things that are classified as being "in the gray area". But the states rules are hard and fast... no gray area on this one.

    I could be wrong though.

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    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd wrote: The AG opinion expresses that the board does not have the power to independently determine that someone is mentally ill. However, the OP has been diagnosed as having a clinical depression; most likely by psychologist(s) who DO have that power. I might be wrong, but I believe that a diagnosis of clinical depression may be considered a mental health disorder. If this is the case, then the board needn't infer anything... a diagnosis has been made and they can deny a permit based on that.

    My inclination is that the OP will be denied a CPL and that an attempt to appeal will be unsuccessful. This is one of those rare circumstances that I would recommend seeking the advice of an attorney who specializes in this area. It might help to seek other clinical opinions of your mental health... doctors occasionally misdiagnose.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    I have read all that informatin. It is all on the CD-ROM they give out when you file the application. I guess my question is wheter or not depression is considered a metal illness. There is no definition in the mental health code or anywhere else in MI law of what a "mental illness" is.

    On the other hand, if I seek the opinion of a qualified psychologist / doctor and they see no signs of depression or mental illness would this still prevent the issue of the license?

    "Ever" sure is a long time and does not seem like it should prevent one from a certain quality of life in the future.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
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    Veritas wrote:
    http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

    16.Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment

    I don't think you're going to be approved. They probably won't even call you before them for a meeting. If you have been diagnosed with a mental illness at the time the application is made, it is cause to deny.

    Going before the board, as I understand it, is to clarify things that are classified as being "in the gray area". But the states rules are hard and fast... no gray area on this one.

    I could be wrong though.
    Good reason for y'all to get started on cleaning up the application requirements.

    The psych's have been adding to the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)as time goes on. All sorts of psycho-babble mental illnesses in there.

    Combine it with the fact that psychiatry can't really cure anyone and its entirelyarguable that a person will have whatever mental illness for the rest of hislife.

    For example, there is some disorder listed having to do with being shy, or meeting people, or some such--social anxiety disorder. Should a person be ineligible because he, in good faith, sought treatment to overcome a problem inhibiting his career?

    Oh, here is good one that popped up on the first google return page--internet addiction disorder. I haven't checked to see if it is listed in the DSM, but just wait until it is. Spend too much time on gun forums--whoosh, some of your gun rights disappear.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Well, here is some case law. This ruling from the MI Supreme Court supports a circuit court's order to a county gun board to issue a CPL to a man who was very clearly a threat to himself and others in the past.

    http://coa.courts.mi.gov/documents/o...38.opn.coa.pdf

    I also want to point out that the CPL application has apparently been revised. The mental illness question is number six. It now reads, "Do you have a diagnosed mental illness, regardless of whether you are receiving treatment for that illness?"

    This is not worded in the past-tense, but the present."Do you"is different than "have you ever been".

    What is perhaps most disturbing is that the gentleman in the supreme court opinion above is a reserve deputy. Scary thought when you read his mental health history.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  25. #25
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

    16.Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment

    I don't think you're going to be approved. They probably won't even call you before them for a meeting. If you have been diagnosed with a mental illness at the time the application is made, it is cause to deny.

    Going before the board, as I understand it, is to clarify things that are classified as being "in the gray area". But the states rules are hard and fast... no gray area on this one.

    I could be wrong though.
    Good reason for y'all to get started on cleaning up the application requirements.

    The psych's have been adding to the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)as time goes on. All sorts of psycho-babble mental illnesses in there.

    Combine it with the fact that psychiatry can't really cure anyone and its entirelyarguable that a person will have whatever mental illness for the rest of hislife.

    For example, there is some disorder listed having to do with being shy, or meeting people, or some such--social anxiety disorder. Should a person be ineligible because he, in good faith, sought treatment to overcome a problem inhibiting his career?

    Oh, here is good one that popped up on the first google return page--internet addiction disorder. I haven't checked to see if it is listed in the DSM, but just wait until it is. Spend too much time on gun forums--whoosh, some of your gun rights disappear.
    Soon to come along in that list - Data Addiction: http://www.dataaddiction.com/

    Most people here would probably qualify...
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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