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Thread: Got into a fender bender today

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    Thought I would share this as a learning experience so we know better what to expect. I was front ended today at a light. A guy from out of state ran past the line at the stop light while towing a trailer and tried to back up. He backed right up over the bumper of my Toyota Tacoma with his trailerd cadilac. Not much damage until I tried to open my hood to check the radiator. It would not budge. We pulled past the light and got over in a gravel pull off and I called HP.

    Me and the other driver were talking in front of my truck as the officer pulled up. I did not have time to disarm as he apporached and was not about to until he arrived on scene anyway. I stepped around the front of my truck with my hands about chest high, pointed at my sidearm and asked if he wanted me to put it in my truck. Withouth missing a beat he said, "No, I'll take care of it." Before he finished the sentence he had closed the distance to me, had his hand on my holster, and immediately hit the lock on the Sherpa and had the Glock 19 in his hand. My thought was holy crap that was fast. He unloaded it and asked me to unlock my passenger door. He showed me that he put the pistol, clip and the +1 in the pipe on my seat. Then we locked the doors.

    I've been in several different Terry Stop discussions on different boards lately. My thoughts are this. I called the HP to come investigate the accident. That puts me dealing with the officer on official business in an investigation. Maybe not strictly "crime afoot" but investigating a traffic accident. At that point we are being detained for the duration of the investigation anyway. In the cruiser he told me it was SOP to seperate the firearm from the subject during the investigation of the accident. He said tempers and heated arguments plus firearms could get bad. What are ya'll thoughts?

    FWIW, we talked guns as much as we talked about the accident. All 3 of us in the patrol car talking shop about firearms. He said he had a Glock for his ankle rig and a Glock in 357 sig as his carry. When I asked him how he liked the 357 sig he proceeded to tell me he knew from experience it would go through a car. lol He complemented me on my firearm and made sure to tell me he was a strong supporter of my right to defend myself. We talked about cops not being there when it happens and coming in 15 minutes later to clean up and take notes. It had taken him 15 min to get there. He agreed and said it was unfortunate but that they occasionally where able to get somebody off the road before they did something to hurt somebody. There are a lot of bad situations with cops out there and I told him I did not think all cops looked at carry and defending yourself so well. But with 2 of these run ins in 2 days I'm pretty happy with some of the "Boys in Blue" on my side of the state. I'll get a bad one someday I'm sure.

    I've been out of work for over a week since my surgery. I need to get back to work so I have less time to have these encounters!

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    we need to start a separate forum of chiefjason LEO encounters

    glad to hear no one was injured

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    I can understand the LEO point of view, but I don't like the prevalent attitude that having a gun makes you likely to use it if you become upset. When you OC and mention it first thing to the arriving LEO, what better indicator is there that you are responsible with your firearm and have no desire to cause any trouble with it? Why should free, law-abiding citizens have to disarm themselves... ever?

    These are just rhetorical questions / rant; I'm well aware of all sides of this argument.

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    chiefjason wrote:
    SNIP He said tempers and heated arguments plus firearms could get bad. What are ya'll thoughts?
    I agree, "tempers and heated arguments plus firearms could get bad." That is why I don't want to be disarmed until the other guy is Terry searched to make sure he doesn't have a gun.

    "Oh? You don't have RAS to Terry search the other guy for a gun? Then how do you have RAS to seize mine?"

    Terry is clear: 1) armed and 2) presently dangerous.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen, I do not even recal the question being presented to the other driver. That said, they seperated and went to the other vihicle for a minute. From another discussion the issue of the "detention" was raised as a reason to be able to disarm someone. Probably more as an item of SOP than resulting from Terry, which would require search. Since I am trying to be lawful I immediately ID'd that I was armed. Hopefully I don't get to answer my own question of whether a CC would be treated differently. I doubt it though.

    It's an issue that kind of goes both ways for me. Since this was official business and an investigation I am more willing to side with the officer here. At least it's more understandable for me. The other issue was that I was not going to disarm until the officer arrived to be able to secure things more. There were actually 2 guys in the other vehicle.

    Personally if it were a random encounter, DL check,or someone called in when I was doing nothing more that bearing arms I would have a bigger issue with it. That seems to be the threshold I am leaning towards to feeling like my rights have been violated. But that is me.

    On the positive side the officer never asked to "run the numbers" on the gun, no question of why I carried or what I thought I needed it for.

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    If I were the OP in this situation, it would be very tempting to nonchalantly ask the LEO if he was also going to disarm the Cadillac's driver. Asking a leading question isn't the same as making a false statement, is it?

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    chiefjason wrote:
    Hopefully I don't get to answer my own question of whether a CC would be treated differently.* I doubt it though.
    With OC, the LEO doesn't know who he's dealing with, but the CHP holder has been through the system with class time, competency check, background check, and fingerprints on file. There's far less reason, in my opinion, for an LEO to be concerned about such a person.

    I've read as many stories of LEO not disarming CC holders at traffic stops as I have stories of disarming. Absent any SOP, I suspect it depends a lot on the LEO's view of CC and guns in general.

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    I've dealt with NC Troopers on more than once occasion during various incidents, but luckily none of them were multi-vehicle or criminal in nature.

    Anyway, one time I was carrying concealed (all though lazily) and when he got out of his car I greeted him and said "Hey, real quick, I have my concealed carry permit and I'm armed." He said "Oh, umm ok! So what's going on?" And that was that.

    Another time I was carrying openly, and I just turned my hip and said "Hey, I'm legally armed by the way." Again, the trooper said "Oh, ok, thanks. So...."

    My theory is I'm legally armed, and so are they. There's no reason for either of us to disarm the other. I don't act like I'm doing anything wrong, and I sure as hell don't imply that I'd be ok with him taking my sidearm. If one ever did, I would probably make it clear that I'd rather he didn't, and possibly ask him for his in return lol.

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    DreQo wrote:
    There's no reason for either of us to disarm the other. I don't act like I'm doing anything wrong, and I sure as hell don't imply that I'd be ok with him taking my sidearm. If one ever did, I would probably make it clear that I'd rather he didn't, and possibly ask him for his in return lol.
    I have not been disarmed as yet, even in the instance of a questionable Terry stop. My perspective is specifically VA (so please don't get too ruffled) but I had to chuckle when the officer said "What should we think if you went for your gun?"

    Of course, me being CC at the time it was humorous for me because, well, how would they know I was armed at all?

    And secondly, I'd have to be one heck of a shot and/or a complete loon to draw on TWO Beach Police and expect to get more than a block before making like a block of swiss cheese.
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    chiefjason wrote:
    He complemented me on my firearm and made sure to tell me he was a strong supporter of my right to defend myself.
    He's such a strong supporter that he immediately disarmed you?



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    KBCraig wrote:
    chiefjason wrote:
    He complemented me on my firearm and made sure to tell me he was a strong supporter of my right to defend myself.
    He's such a strong supporter that he immediately disarmed you?

    *
    Two things that come to mind. First being that once he gets on scene, he now assumes a lot of responsibility for my safety. Until he arrives, I alone have that responsibility. I think we have to temper the rights issue with officer safety as well. That's a personal decision that I have arrived at, YMMV.

    If I am in a position that I need and officer to respond then I am OK playing by their rules. If I am doing nothing wrong and they come to me asking to disarm me, I will be taking that higher up the chain of command. When you are dealing with them in an official capacity, and are being detained for the duration of the investigation, things do change.

    You can push that if you wish. I'm not looking to be the test case to see if the SOP stands up to years in court. I was there, I talked to him, I believe him. If he was not sincere do you think he would have pushed the OC issue more? He asked me no questions about why I was carrying, only stated that I had a right to defend myself.

    Just figured I would post the experience here to make folks aware of what I was told.

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    chiefjason wrote:
    Two things that come to mind. First being that once he gets on scene, he now assumes a lot of responsibility for my safety. Until he arrives, I alone have that responsibility.
    He has no responsibility to your safety. That has been qualified in the courts.

    He is responsible for his own actions, not yours. If you were to become a threat or a problem, then he may exercise the option to disarm. His nonchalantly disarming you was for HIS safety.

    I'm surprised he didn't handcuff you for his "safety".

    And he violated your rights in doing so. And you seem to be OK with that. I certainly wouldn't be. His supervisor's office would definitely hear about it.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    wylde007, wrote

    Of course, me being CC at the time it was humorous for me because, well, how would they know I was armed at all?
    He would know if you were a CCW holder if he stopped or ran your tag and or license
    number. If you don't declare your self and are armed you will lose your permit and gun.

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    He would know if you were a CCW holder if he stopped or ran your tag and or license number. If you don't declare your self and are armed you will lose your permit and gun.
    Not in Virginia. Which, if you would care to notice is where I plainly stated my perspective was from.

    Upon his initial approach he would not know if I had a permit now, would he? No. And since I was walking down the street he has no way to pre-identify me.

    I understand that NC is a shall-notify state. That was immaterial to my post.

    They did, however, demand identification which is not technically legal for them to do. You are not required ANYWHERE to carry identification unless you are doing something that identification "permits" you to do, such as driving. There is no permit for walking down the street, ergo they cannot demand identification from you.

    They may ask your name and address to verify who you are and, if necessary, detain you if they think you have been involved in some criminal activity. It's known as a Terry Stop.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    wylde007 wrote:
    He would know if you were a CCW holder if he stopped or ran your tag and or license number. If you don't declare your self and are armed you will lose your permit and gun.
    I understand that NC is a shall-notify state. That was immaterial to my post.

    They did, however, demand identification which is not technically legal for them to do. You are not required ANYWHERE to carry identification unless you are doing something that identification "permits" you to do, such as driving. There is no permit for walking down the street, ergo they cannot demand identification from you.
    In NC, if you have a concealed carry handgun permit, you are required to carry both it and state-issued identification if you are carrying a concealed handgun. You ain't from 'round here, so I can understand the confusion.

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    Fahrenheit wrote:
    In NC, if you have a concealed carry handgun permit, you are required to carry both it and state-issued identification if you are carrying a concealed handgun. You ain't from 'round here, so I can understand the confusion.
    Here we go, round and round.

    I was stopped. Officers said I resembled the person who was reported causing a disturbance at a concert. Rather than ask my name, they demanded identification.

    They did not ask if I was carrying and then demand it. They demanded it immediately. Then they ran my ID and it came back with a check marked next to "CHP". They then asked if I was carrying to which I responded that I was.

    Now, if they had asked me if I was carrying first off and THEN demanded identification and permit, I would have been obligated to submit. Do you see the subtle difference in the two scenarios?

    In VA you must carry your permit and state-issued ID at all times you are carrying, so it is no different than NC except that we don't have to inform.

    There is no confusion about the laws, but thanks anyway.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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