walmart, cops, let go on my merry way

mtlhdtodd · Aug 1, 2009

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So I'm in the Fed Way Super Walmart doing that shopping thing walking throught the store. I turn around and change direction and lo and behold a cop is approaching. The exchange was pleasant and in a non-confrontational tone, it went something like this--

me: hi officer

cop: good evening, can I talk to you for a minute?

me: sure

cop: I see you're open carrying and I know you're legal but we got some calls so I'm just making contact. I understand the whole 2nd ammendment and I'm all for it but people are a little tense.

me: so

cop: do you have some ID and a ccp

me: yes

cop: can I see them?

me: uh ok (since I did drove to the store and had already made purchases at the pharmacy I figured ok since the officer didn't give me any attitude)

cop: we told the manager as we came in that you were legal but we would talk to you. I'm not going to run your ID just need the basics for my report.

me: according to the open carry website I frequent Walmart corporate just follows state law so I'm good.

cop: (nods to my statement) thank you for your cooperation, here's your ID have a nice day.

as we finished another officer showed up and the first officer said "he's good. I saw his ccp and his ID"

At no time did they try to disarm me or even glance at my gun. I continued on my way and finished my shopping and left. No other incidents or even glances so I guess it was an ok encounter. Not great but ok

Citizen · Aug 1, 2009

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Well, at least they were polite.

You might consider trying something along these lines:"No offense, officer. I know you're probably just doing your job, but I do not consent to this encounter/answering questions/showing ID." A genuinely professional cop should recognize and respect it.

I say this because I don't like the police developing or having an expectation that people will comply/aquiesce/consent.

Plus, I just find it intolerable that police find suspicion in the mere possession of the means for self-defense. Ditto for bugging a law-abiding citizen just to make someone else comfortable or humor their unreasonable nervousness.

bennie1986 · Aug 1, 2009

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I wish some of the cops in spokane were as professional. Dont get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for LEO's as they put there lives on the line for us every time they come to work. As in your situation given the proper respect I would be happy to do what ever, with in reason of course, that the LEO asks me to do because firstley the person who called the cops is more than likely watching and nothing will burn their ass more that to watch as you go about your normal business afterwards still carrying and secondly because most of them are proud American gun owners like ourselfs that will back our rights 100%.

Batousaii · Aug 1, 2009

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Very cool. I think i would have done exactly same as original poster. I believe strongly that if they are civil, respectful and just responding to a call, that our receptive and cooperative approach will show the LEO community that we as 2-A supporters are not the ones making their jobs difficult. In the end, and after having various casual, friendly encounters that DON'T lead to them feeling tense or "on the other side" they will likely start showing up with "Hey Fred" attitude towards any give OCer.

- Remember, each encounter that can go good should go good, creating resistance creates friction. So, Just for an ID and CWP (since i would have been driving) I'd be 100% ok with that. We want respect, i am sure they do to.. make it mutual, they see us as "on their side" in the end, and in the future probably would not ask for anything.(or at least that would be the ideal scenario).

:celebrateHappy to hear of good encounters, thank you Todd.

Bat.

Vegassteve · Aug 2, 2009

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Batousaii wrote:

Very cool. I think i would have done exactly same as original poster. I believe strongly that if they are civil, respectful and just responding to a call, that our receptive and cooperative approach will show the LEO community that we as 2-A supporters are not the ones making their jobs difficult. In the end, and after having various casual, friendly encounters that DON'T lead to them feeling tense or "on the other side" they will likely start showing up with "Hey Fred" attitude towards any give OCer.

- Remember, each encounter that can go good should go good, creating resistance creates friction. So, Just for an ID and CWP (since i would have been driving) I'd be 100% ok with that. We want respect, i am sure they do to.. make it mutual, they see us as "on their side" in the end, and in the future probably would not ask for anything.(or at least that would be the ideal scenario).

:celebrateHappy to hear of good encounters, thank you Todd.

Bat.

I have no clue what WA state law is on ID but I see no reason to be all happy and dancing because someone showed the cops papers. I am sure the Jews were just as happy to show the SS papers as well.

It is sad that people fold like this.

Kildars · Aug 2, 2009

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I would have told him I did have ID and a CCW but unless he has reasonable suspicion I'm committing a crime, I'm not going to give it up. Why, so he can put my name on some "report" of a MWAG?

1245A Defender · Aug 2, 2009

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mtlhdtodd wrote:

cop: I see you're open carrying and I know you're legal but we got some calls so I'm just making contact.
cop: we told the manager as we came in that you were legal but we would talk to you.

even thou you were really just trying to be nice to the cop, he has already told you that he has no legalauthorityto talk to you, to ask for ID or CPL,ask you questions or detain you!! so going along with him does a disservice to the cause of 2nd, 4th, and 5th A rights!! i would not be rude to him, its ok to be nice when you remined him that your ID and CPL do not need to be shown at this time. then you can thank him for thenice visit and then be on your way..

compmanio365 · Aug 2, 2009

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I've shopped in the Federal Way and Puyallup Walmarts for years now, and never had an encounter with an officer. Wonder why you drew more attention......still, they were respectful, and asked to see your ID, and you handed it over willingly. All consensual, so no real violation there. Now, if he had asked and you said no, then they strung you up, then yeah.

So, some sheeple called, they responded, talked to you, said have a good day? Sounds like a win for us in my book. Now those sheeple have gotta be shaking their heads and wondering why you weren't thrown in cuffs right away.

Batousaii · Aug 2, 2009

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My reason (for dancing banana) is because there can be some really crappy outcomes. In the end, if we act like we are on an opposite side of LEO then we are going to be treated like it. If we show just a little cooperation and give an inch, then they will (or should too). It all has to start someplace. We want to be setting the example, not just for LEO, but for all that are watching. If some one calls the police cause they are scaredof an OCer, and OCer reacts negatively to the cops, the cops get frustrated and ticket or worst wrongly arrest the guy , then the onlookers have a "see, i knew that guy was trouble" attitude, and that becomes the perception. Versus, Cops come, OCer is friendly, works with the officer, who then tips a hat or shakes the guys hands, leaving an impression to the onlookers that the OCer is the friendly one and "why the hell some jerk call the cops on that nice guy anyways" becomes the perception.

We have to remember the full scope of things here. Perception becomes reality. What exactly is our end goal here, and what image do we want the outside view to have of us as gun owners, especially as OCers. Do we want an environment where we can freely OC, get more people interested in OC, doing it and NOT being hassled? Then we need to be setting the example, priming the environment, showing our nature, and reinforcing our true nature with action, understanding, and consideration to our reaction of LEO. This is what will build the environment we want.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is in fact our responsibility to be the bigger, better, more knowledgeable and responsible of the various "sides". To be treated like "the good guys" Mr./Mrs. America, then we nee to act and react like it. If we want to be trusted and worked with and understood, then we need to return in kind the same attitude. it is simple mathematics, simply physics, as i stated, resistance creates friction, that creates heat. The base fundamental can be applied in almost any of life's situations as well. the OP had a VERY low friction situation because he did not create un-needed resistance. This in turn ended in a completely no-resistance no confrontation, no negative reaction environment for Todd. I applaud and yea, he gets the dancing Banana, he, in my opinion did everything right. The end result is an officer who will probably remember and recognise him with a "good bell" next time. Ends with a thank you and a hand shake, see ya later Todd, have a good day. The onlookers again left with a better impression of who and what we are about.

As i tell my kids, your life will be a sum and total of the choices you make. You will be who you make yourself to be. (same with environment)

:dude:Bat.

FYI- if anyone is wondering, NO i am not a LEO, but yes i do work around them allot, so i know some of the mechanics here. There are some really crappy scumbags out there, and from the LEO perspective, he never knows who or what he is gonna get until he walks up onto it. By showing some understanding to these guys, we are gonna get allot back in the end. Act like we are on their side, they will treat us that way once that reputation/perception becomes reality. Become a point of contention, and we are sure to be treated that way. I personally want to see a free America where one can carry a sidearm and no one thinks nothing of it. I would love to wear my old school drop loop wheel gun. Not gonna if i know we made ourselves a thorn in LEO's side.... totally would if i knew LEO was gonna tip his hat and give me "good day sir" or "Heya Bat, hows the coffee?"... make this reality - choose the one you want.

+ ALSO, i am not saying don't stand up for yourself! If the situation requires it, like if the officer is already being a jerk or acting like he want to create problems, then hell yeah, refuse consent, stand firm on your rights, play the game as it needs to be played in order to create a victory for our rights.... just saying, we don't need to create a "victory" where none is needed. If it can be smooth, let it be smooth, and be happy for it, the LEO usually will be too.

P.S) .....?.. "FOLD" ?!?! - lol - you obviously know not who i am kind sir.

sorry for the long post...

Bat.

Metalhead47 · Aug 2, 2009

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Batousaii wrote:

My reason (for dancing banana) is because there can be some really crappy outcomes. In the end, if we act like we are on an opposite side of LEO then we are going to be treated like it. If we show just a little cooperation and give an inch, then they will (or should too). It all has to start someplace. We want to be setting the example, not just for LEO, but for all that are watching. If some one calls the police cause they are scaredof an OCer, and OCer reacts negatively to the cops, the cops get frustrated and ticket or worst wrongly arrest the guy , then the onlookers have a "see, i knew that guy was trouble" attitude, and that becomes the perception. Versus, Cops come, OCer is friendly, works with the officer, who then tips a hat or shakes the guys hands, leaving an impression to the onlookers that the OCer is the friendly one and "why the hell some jerk call the cops on that nice guy anyways" becomes the perception.

We have to remember the full scope of things here. Perception becomes reality. What exactly is our end goal here, and what image do we want the outside view to have of us as gun owners, especially as OCers. Do we want an environment where we can freely OC, get more people interested in OC, doing it and NOT being hassled? Then we need to be setting the example, priming the environment, showing our nature, and reinforcing our true nature with action, understanding, and consideration to our reaction of LEO. This is what will build the environment we want.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is in fact our responsibility to be the bigger, better, more knowledgeable and responsible of the various "sides". To be treated like "the good guys" Mr./Mrs. America, then we nee to act and react like it. If we want to be trusted and worked with and understood, then we need to return in kind the same attitude. it is simple mathematics, simply physics, as i stated, resistance creates friction, that creates heat. The base fundamental can be applied in almost any of life's situations as well. the OP had a VERY low friction situation because he did not create un-needed resistance. This in turn ended in a completely no-resistance no confrontation, no negative reaction environment for Todd. I applaud and yea, he gets the dancing Banana, he, in my opinion did everything right. The end result is an officer who will probably remember and recognise him with a "good bell" next time. Ends with a thank you and a hand shake, see ya later Todd, have a good day. The onlookers again left with a better impression of who and what we are about.

As i tell my kids, your life will be a sum and total of the choices you make. You will be who you make yourself to be. (same with environment)

:dude:Bat.

FYI- if anyone is wondering, NO i am not a LEO, but yes i do work around them allot, so i know some of the mechanics here. There are some really crappy scumbags out there, and from the LEO perspective, he never knows who or what he is gonna get until he walks up onto it. By showing some understanding to these guys, we are gonna get allot back in the end. Act like we are on their side, they will treat us that way once that reputation/perception becomes reality. Become a point of contention, and we are sure to be treated that way. I personally want to see a free America where one can carry a sidearm and no one thinks nothing of it. I would love to wear my old school drop loop wheel gun. Not gonna if i know we made ourselves a thorn in LEO's side.... totally would if i knew LEO was gonna tip his hat and give me "good day sir" or "Heya Bat, hows the coffee?"... make this reality - choose the one you want.

+ ALSO, i am not saying don't stand up for yourself! If the situation requires it, like if the officer is already being a jerk or acting like he want to create problems, then hell yeah, refuse consent, stand firm on your rights, play the game as it needs to be played in order to create a victory for our rights.... just saying, we don't need to create a "victory" where none is needed. If it can be smooth, let it be smooth, and be happy for it, the LEO usually will be too.

P.S) .....?.. "FOLD" ?!?! - lol - you obviously know not who i am kind sir.

sorry for the long post...

Bat.

Well said, well said +1000000:monkey

sirpuma · Aug 2, 2009

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Batousaii wrote:

My reason (for dancing banana) is because there can be some really crappy outcomes. In the end, if we act like we are on an opposite side of LEO then we are going to be treated like it. If we show just a little cooperation and give an inch, then they will (or should too). It all has to start someplace. We want to be setting the example, not just for LEO, but for all that are watching. If some one calls the police cause they are scaredof an OCer, and OCer reacts negatively to the cops, the cops get frustrated and ticket or worst wrongly arrest the guy , then the onlookers have a "see, i knew that guy was trouble" attitude, and that becomes the perception. Versus, Cops come, OCer is friendly, works with the officer, who then tips a hat or shakes the guys hands, leaving an impression to the onlookers that the OCer is the friendly one and "why the hell some jerk call the cops on that nice guy anyways" becomes the perception.

We have to remember the full scope of things here. Perception becomes reality. What exactly is our end goal here, and what image do we want the outside view to have of us as gun owners, especially as OCers. Do we want an environment where we can freely OC, get more people interested in OC, doing it and NOT being hassled? Then we need to be setting the example, priming the environment, showing our nature, and reinforcing our true nature with action, understanding, and consideration to our reaction of LEO. This is what will build the environment we want.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is in fact our responsibility to be the bigger, better, more knowledgeable and responsible of the various "sides". To be treated like "the good guys" Mr./Mrs. America, then we nee to act and react like it. If we want to be trusted and worked with and understood, then we need to return in kind the same attitude. it is simple mathematics, simply physics, as i stated, resistance creates friction, that creates heat. The base fundamental can be applied in almost any of life's situations as well. the OP had a VERY low friction situation because he did not create un-needed resistance. This in turn ended in a completely no-resistance no confrontation, no negative reaction environment for Todd. I applaud and yea, he gets the dancing Banana, he, in my opinion did everything right. The end result is an officer who will probably remember and recognise him with a "good bell" next time. Ends with a thank you and a hand shake, see ya later Todd, have a good day. The onlookers again left with a better impression of who and what we are about.

As i tell my kids, your life will be a sum and total of the choices you make. You will be who you make yourself to be. (same with environment)

:dude:Bat.

FYI- if anyone is wondering, NO i am not a LEO, but yes i do work around them allot, so i know some of the mechanics here. There are some really crappy scumbags out there, and from the LEO perspective, he never knows who or what he is gonna get until he walks up onto it. By showing some understanding to these guys, we are gonna get allot back in the end. Act like we are on their side, they will treat us that way once that reputation/perception becomes reality. Become a point of contention, and we are sure to be treated that way. I personally want to see a free America where one can carry a sidearm and no one thinks nothing of it. I would love to wear my old school drop loop wheel gun. Not gonna if i know we made ourselves a thorn in LEO's side.... totally would if i knew LEO was gonna tip his hat and give me "good day sir" or "Heya Bat, hows the coffee?"... make this reality - choose the one you want.

+ ALSO, i am not saying don't stand up for yourself! If the situation requires it, like if the officer is already being a jerk or acting like he want to create problems, then hell yeah, refuse consent, stand firm on your rights, play the game as it needs to be played in order to create a victory for our rights.... just saying, we don't need to create a "victory" where none is needed. If it can be smooth, let it be smooth, and be happy for it, the LEO usually will be too.

P.S) .....?.. "FOLD" ?!?! - lol - you obviously know not who i am kind sir.

sorry for the long post...

Bat.

+1. You hit the nail on the head here.

Besides, when LEO get a call they have to respond if able. Once on scene, they have to make contact to complete the report that goes with the case number for the call. Since the OP drove there as 99.999% of people do, the LEO has reasonable suspicion that the OP came in a vehicle which requires a CPL to carry loaded. He had every right and responsibility to make contact with the OP and ask for ID and CPL. I think this situation was handed professionally and friendly. I say good job Todd and good job Officer.

Oh, and I'll give the OP :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

mtlhdtodd · Aug 2, 2009

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As a side note - As I was talking to the officer a couple of guys were doing the whisper behind the hand and the high finger point thing. After the encounter I was at the deli counter, strong side to an express check out, when I turned around it was the same guys at checkout. I can only assume from the somewhat surprised look on their faces that they were "WTF, how's he still walking around like that?" I did get a little chuckle out of that. So I guess I did get a look or two.

As far as the encounter itself, yes the officer could have just let me be in a perfect world. I hope we get to that point. However if officers approach and are not confrontational, lecturing and sometimes arrogant, a little give and take can only do some good toward advancing our position. Especially when you consider the image the sheeple get (see the WTF look I got). That is why I thought the encounter was ok but not great.

Citizen · Aug 2, 2009

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NavyLT wrote:

sirpuma wrote:

SNIP Once on scene, they have to make contact to complete the report that goes with the case number for the call. Since the OP drove there as 99.999% of people do, the LEO has reasonable suspicion that the OP came in a vehicle which requires a CPL to carry loaded. He had every right and responsibility to make contact with the OP and ask for ID and CPL. I think this situation was handed professionally and friendly. I say good job Todd and good job Officer.

Click to expand...

Ummm. NO.

Washington requires a CPL to carry loaded in a car, no?

So, what's the cop gonna do when the OCer does not have a CPL? How is the cop going to prove the OCer drove or rode in the vehicle with a loaded gun?

Are we really going to say that OCing on foot in a WalMart is sufficient articulable facts to make RAS of the crime of driving/riding in a car with a loaded gun without a CPL? Especially when there is no evidence the unCPL'd driver doesn't just load and unload his gun at the car?

BB62 · Aug 2, 2009

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Batousaii wrote:

...In the end, if we act like we are on an opposite side of LEO then we are going to be treated like it. If we show just a little cooperation and give an inch, then they will (or should too). It all has to start someplace. We want to be setting the example, not just for LEO, but for all that are watching...

Hmmm...

What is your definition of "cooperation"? Showing ID when it's not required, or just not stating "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO A WHITE (BLACK, etc.) MAN IN AMERICA!!"?

Charles Paul Lincoln · Aug 2, 2009

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I applaud theMtlhdTodd and Bat as wise ambassadors of the 2A movement. I hope that if I have an interaction with LEO they have experienced gun carriers like you, and that is the impression of CC/OC they have.

I, too, work with many LEO, and from my conversations with them, most strongly support "citizen" carry. Some have developed a negative image of pro-2A persons because of antagonistic interactions with same. I think the great work that sv_libertarian has done in Olympia is an example of what is accomplished through a calm, rational, non-antagonistic approach.

Charles

. . . and a chorus line of :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

to you both!

Machoduck · Aug 2, 2009

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Why on earth would a citizen's polite refusal to give up rights offend a cop? Especially if the refusal is done in the context of a broader issue; i.e., the Constitution, which the cop had to swear to uphold in order to get his commission, vs a man doing no wrong and for whom a report must be filed. What's wrong with the cop writing, "subject male was legally carrying - declined to show ID for constitutional reasons - 4th Amendment, Terry, etc."? If cops have issues with that, I ask what kind of cops are we raising and employing? If the cop fears flak from his supervisor, what kind of supervisors are we employing? Who gives them their direction?

Suggested response, given OP's account of his encounter: Hey, I noticed that you guys explained where you had no RAS and, in fact, knew that I 'm perfectly legal. That was great! The thing is, I'm a Constitutionalist, and it really goes against the grain to give up 4A rights. Surely you'll have no trouble putting something in your report along the lines of the above, "subject ...politely declined on constitutional grounds ...(yada, yada)".

MD

kenny31 · Aug 2, 2009

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I guess this is where I have a disagreement with most of the board here. It's not my fault if some lib calls the cops on me, I don't particularly care to be bothered with their nonsense regardless. The cops may very well have to do their job and if they want to drive by or walk by me, they're more than welcome but that's their problem - not mine. Unless I'm doing something illegal, I don't expect them to contact me. If they do, I'll vigorously enforce my rights and terminate the encounter by walking away. If they wish to place me under arrest or in custody under the powers afforded to them by the state, I'll exercise my own rights in a court of law. Until I start breaking laws, I expect to be left well enough alone. Just because I choose to engage in an activity that some would see as unusual doesn't not warrant increased police attention or distractions from my daily life.

Admittedly, I'm not an OC activist. I am a practitioner who has little patience for uninformed officials and stupidity. Until we can shed the consensus view that OC must be done as a public education campaign, we will be constantly viewed as people who are out trying to make a point rather than just going about their business. That said, I do not engage in behavior that would counteract the efforts put forth by others and try to make sure that I'm seen as a law-abiding citizen. I just don't think it's anyone's business what I am or am not carrying...

Respectfully submitted, no offense intended of course.

Citizen · Aug 2, 2009

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Machoduck wrote:

Why on earth would a citizen's polite refusal to give up rights offend a cop? Especially if the refusal is done in the context of a broader issue; i.e., the Constitution, which the cop had to swear to uphold in order to get his commission, vs a man doing no wrong and for whom a report must be filed. What's wrong with the cop writing, "subject male was legally carrying - declined to show ID for constitutional reasons - 4th Amendment, Terry, etc."? If cops have issues with that, I ask what kind of cops are we raising and employing? If the cop fears flak from his supervisor, what kind of supervisors are we employing? Who gives them their direction?

Suggested response, given OP's account of his encounter: Hey, I noticed that you guys explained where you had no RAS and, in fact, knew that I 'm perfectly legal. That was great! The thing is, I'm a Constitutionalist, and it really goes against the grain to give up 4A rights. Surely you'll have no trouble putting something in your report along the lines of the above, "subject ...politely declined on constitutional grounds ...(yada, yada)".

MD

+1

Thisencounter smells of police abusing the consent angle.

It hasn't been mentioned, yet, so I'll toss it in here.

The OPer was contacted investigatively. This wasn't a social contact, nor a public-relations contact (for the OPer anyway.) This was the real thing. If there had been one single point of illegality, he'd have been in trouble.

Anybody see that recent post where the cops were nice to the OCer or CCer, but the dashcam video pickedup their conversation planning ways to "get" him? "Nice" has some real liabilities as a reference point for evaluating someone, even cops.

Machoduck · Aug 2, 2009

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+1 back at you, Citizen.

America seems to be coming down with the galloping dumbs. You can kill people, and as long as you say you're sorry, everything's fine. Cops can abridge your rights, and as long as they're "nice", all is forgiven. Well guess what? The Tangos have incorporated this fact into their training manuals, or so a recent headline proclaims. Well duh! As long as we place style over substance we'll continue having these problems.

MD

FunkTrooper · Aug 2, 2009

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Since Washington has no stop and identify law then I don't see why you would give out your information. Police might start to think that you have to show ID whenever they ask for it. We're going to start losing rights if we give them up for smiles.

walmart, cops, let go on my merry way

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