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Can You Use a Gun in Defense of a Taser

grumpycoconut

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Tomahawk,

Boy, you sure got the point there didn't you? The world is black or white. It is alpha or omega. The glass is only empty or full. It is 1 or 0. It is (insert diametric opposite of your choice here).

GREY damnit!!!!!!! GREY GREY GREY!!!

Your rights are more important to you than they are to me. I don't give a fig about your rights except that denying you yours imperils mine. GREY!!!

By the way, the JBTs are citizens too. Don't tell anyone though. Its a secret.
 

Flyer22

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smoking357 wrote:
grumpycoconut wrote:
AWDstylez wrote:
People often die from getting tasered. Fire away.

People don't often die from being tasered. If they did there'd be lots more dead people around. People die from being on way too many drugs or being out of control bug @#$%e crazy hyper stimulated and being tasered. Chances are they would have died anyway after tussling with the cops.
This is funny. Tasers don't kill people. People just up and die around tasers.

Go learn a concept called "proximate cause."

And I suggest that YOU go learn a concept called "learn the facts."

Tasers are actually one of the LEAST likely things to cause death. A new study found that "A Taser application. . . is one of the weakest stimulants of stress chemicals among sources that are commonly present during a police confrontation."

http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2009/07/force-science-news-127-research-roundup-latest-on-tasers-arrest-related-deaths-excited-delirium/
 

grumpycoconut

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Flyer22 wrote:
smoking357 wrote:
grumpycoconut wrote:
AWDstylez wrote:
People often die from getting tasered. Fire away.

People don't often die from being tasered. If they did there'd be lots more dead people around. People die from being on way too many drugs or being out of control bug @#$%e crazy hyper stimulated and being tasered. Chances are they would have died anyway after tussling with the cops.
This is funny. Tasers don't kill people. People just up and die around tasers.

Go learn a concept called "proximate cause."

And I suggest that YOU go learn a concept called "learn the facts."

Tasers are actually one of the LEAST likely things to cause death. A new study found that "A Taser application. . . is one of the weakest stimulants of stress chemicals among sources that are commonly present during a police confrontation."

http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2009/07/force-science-news-127-research-roundup-latest-on-tasers-arrest-related-deaths-excited-delirium/
Careful there Flyer. Access to facts is a scary and confusing thing. It has no place here.
 

Citizen

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Tomahawk wrote:
gb8106 wrote:
NO WHERE does it say an Officer has the duty to put the citizens' rights first, nor does it say they are employed to assure the citizens retain their right to go home. However citizens rights are important and are the back bone of many laws today.
So citizens' rights are important, but not as important as protecting officers. Got it.
You've got it. The eventual reductio ad absurdum being that we have to tape the edges of our driver's licenses so police don't get paper cuts.
 

FunkTrooper

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Citizen wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
gb8106 wrote:
NO WHERE does it say an Officer has the duty to put the citizens' rights first, nor does it say they are employed to assure the citizens retain their right to go home. However citizens rights are important and are the back bone of many laws today.
So citizens' rights are important, but not as important as protecting officers. Got it.
You've got it. The eventual reductio ad absurdum being that we have to tape the edges of our driver's licenses so police don't get paper cuts.
I'm tired of people getting this fact wrong, you don't have to tape the edges of your ID or other papers unless requested by the officer for the purpose of officer safety. Police have a tough job without having to deal with paper cuts, we should respect that.

Just kidding :celebrate
 

GlockMeisterG21

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Well, I'll admit I don't know much about tasers. If I were confronted with a guy weilding a taser I would draw and fire if he continues to advance. Here's my reasoning. If said BG hits me with that taser then I am incapacitated and now at the mercy of a guy who just hit me with 500,00 volts or whatever of juice. At that point I'd be in fear for my life but unable to act. I would think that my use of deadly force would be justified on the basis that if I did not use deadly force(or the threat of it) I would be incapacitated and then likely killed. The argument could be made that he was just gonna rob me but I'm not going to gamble my life on the possibility that a BG who is willing to hit me with a taser would be satisfied with simple robbery.
 

Bustelo5%

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I stand corrected they do background checks and some states have made them illegal but at the bottom is more info on the legal stuff.

I absoultly love this new x3 product up to three different projectiles at the same time holy crap that is awesome. I totally want one of those for real.






TASER International Launches Revolutionary New Multi-Shot TASER Device With Precision Shaped Pulse TechnologyNext Generation TASER X3 Unveiled At Annual TASER Conference SCOTTSDALE, Ariz., July 27, 2009 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- TASER International, Inc. (Nasdaq:TASR), a leading provider of technology solutions and the market leader in electronic control devices (ECDs), today launched its new TASER(r) X3(tm), the next generation product line of its proprietary ECDs, at its annual TASER Conference in Fountain Hills, AZ.
The X3, which is capable of firing three cartridges without reloading, is the first new handheld ECD by TASER International since the introduction of the TASER(r) X26(tm) ECD in 2003.
The X3 uses a revolutionary Pulse Calibration System(tm) to constantly monitor and calibrate electrical output to provide more consistent effects on the target and to provide enhanced safety over the current proven and widely accepted TASER(r) technology.
"The TASER X3 is the most sophisticated handheld weapon ever developed," said Rick Smith, CEO of TASER International. "The X3 will improve effectiveness and safety over the previous generations of TASER(r) devices while also providing the ability to store and retrieve more information and diagnostic analysis on the use and performance of the device than the X26. While our flagship TASER X26 is recognized as the leading law enforcement tool to deliver a less-lethal response to resistance, it is limited by being only a single-shot system. Developing a multiple-shot capability makes sense to increase officer safety through the ability to recover from a missed shot or even simultaneously stop up to three separate targets. The remarkable technology advances of the X3 will provide more safety for officers and the communities they protect as well as more transparency in reporting and analyzing dynamic confrontations with law enforcement."
Since July 1, TASER International has provided daily reveals of the new features and technology of the X3 at www.TASERX3.com. Several of the key technology breakthroughs noted in more detail at today's X3 unveiling include:
Code:
1. The world's first multiple-shot ECD using new Rotational-Pulse(tm)
Drive provides for enhanced officer safety by enabling the user to
recover from missed shots and/or engage up to three targets.

2. Warning Arc -- the ability to arc display even while cartridges
are loaded.  Previously, a warning arc has been shown to gain
voluntary compliance in more than over 80% of incidents without
resorting to the deployment of probes.  However, this has
previously required the removal of the TASER(r) cartridge to
demonstrate the electrical arcs, which can expose an officer to
danger with a temporarily unloaded TASER device.  Now, officers
can readily use the Warning Arc while the cartridges are loaded
resulting in both improved officer safety and suspect safety.

3. Pulse Calibration System (PCS) and Charge Diffusion(tm) Probe --
the PCS constantly monitors and calibrates electrical output to
deliver a Precision Shaped Pulse(tm) that provides more consistent
effects on the target.  The Charge Diffusion Probe allows most of
the charge energy to diffuse into the outermost layers of the skin
with much less energy penetrating deep into the body.  The
combination of the PCS and new Charge Diffusion Probe design in
the X3 yields improved safety characteristics.(1)

4. Environmentally Hardened system withstands sea spray, rain, dust,
electrostatic discharge, even short-term water submersion.

5. Trilogy(tm) Log system with improved sensors inside the X3 --
greatly enhances the usage data analytics over prior generation
dataports with a variety of sensors that record three data logs:

Event Log records common event data such as safety on/off,
trigger presses, Warning Arcs, cartridge deployments as well
as firmware updates, and time updates;

Pulse Log stores the electric characteristics of every pulse
emitted from the X3 and can determine if the charge was
delivered to a subject, arced into the air as a warning, if
probes missed the target, or even if the wires broke or some
other factor interrupted charge delivery to the subject;

Engineering Log monitors the performance of every key
electrical sub-system within the X3 during events and at
rest and provides alerts to the user if any sub-system is
not performing properly and if maintenance is advisable.

6. Range Adjusted Dual Laser System -- increases officer accuracy
and effectiveness with improved dual laser system which detects
the types of cartridges loaded and automatically adjusts the
related dual laser targeting system for the appropriate trajectory
of the probes
class="font2"










Activation/Registration required for
unit to operate. Age and background
check will be performed at activation.
$9.95 fee at time of activation
vWeight 5.36 oz. Power Output 50,000 volts Range 0-4.6 Meters (0-15 ft) plus contact stun backup capability Lithium Power Magazine (LPM) Two three-volt photo cells (Duracell® CR123) Clothing Penetration Up to 5 cm (2 inches
 

smoking357

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Flyer22 wrote:
And I suggest that YOU go learn a concept called "learn the facts."

Tasers are actually one of the LEAST likely things to cause death.
Right. People just up and die for no reason when they're around tasers. It's just a coincidence.

Taser needs to be out of business and its owners in jail. Using a taser in absence of the presence of a deadly weapon should land a cop in jail on an attempted murder charge, if this victim lives, a murder charge, if he doesn't.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Sold_as_nonlethal_Tasers_killed_400_1213.html
 

smoking357

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GlockMeisterG21 wrote:
Well, I'll admit I don't know much about tasers. If I were confronted with a guy weilding a taser I would draw and fire if he continues to advance. Here's my reasoning. If said BG hits me with that taser then I am incapacitated and now at the mercy of a guy who just hit me with 500,00 volts or whatever of juice.
What if the BG is a cop and is using the taser as pain compliance, "torture"?

"You have the right to die..."
 

Flintlock

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Alaska, USA
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smoking357 wrote:
Taser needs to be out of business and its owners in jail. Using a taser in absence of the presence of a deadly weapon should land a cop in jail on an attempted murder charge, if this victim lives, a murder charge, if he doesn't.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Sold_as_nonlethal_Tasers_killed_400_1213.html
By using the samelogic in your post, on could argue thatgun manufacturers shoud be held responsible for the misuse and illegal use of their products and should not only be financially responsible, but alsolegally.

How absurd.
 

Flintlock

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smoking357 wrote:
GlockMeisterG21 wrote:
Well, I'll admit I don't know much about tasers. If I were confronted with a guy weilding a taser I would draw and fire if he continues to advance. Here's my reasoning. If said BG hits me with that taser then I am incapacitated and now at the mercy of a guy who just hit me with 500,00 volts or whatever of juice.
What if the BG is a cop and is using the taser as pain compliance, "torture"?

"You have the right to die..."

Each and every usage of a Taser device is a separate use of force that requires justification, even if the probes are already deployed into the same person. The gain of compliance is it's only purposeand thepain that is associated with that usage is simplya byproduct of gaining thatcompliance.

"Torture" is not allowed in any way. Of course, you already knew that.
 

GLOCK21GB

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Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
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Flintlock wrote:
smoking357 wrote:
Taser needs to be out of business and its owners in jail. Using a taser in absence of the presence of a deadly weapon should land a cop in jail on an attempted murder charge, if this victim lives, a murder charge, if he doesn't.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Sold_as_nonlethal_Tasers_killed_400_1213.html
By using the samlogic in your post, on could argue thatgun manufacturers shoud be held responsible for the misuse and illegal use of their products and should not only be financially responsible, but alsolegally.

How absurd.
Tazers are nothing more than Torture devices to be used tokeep us SUBJECTS in line, ever see the movie THX1138 ? The police and their Pain Sticks ? Anyone that is for the overt misuse of the Tasers on the People, has to own stock in Taser.
 

smoking357

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Flintlock wrote:
The gain of compliance is it's only purposeand thepain that is associated with that usage is simplya byproduct of gaining thatcompliance.
No, Nazi, lethal force is NEVER to be used to gain compliance.

The only purpose of lethal force is to repel a lethal attack.
 

Flintlock

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smoking357 wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
The gain of compliance is it's only purposeand thepain that is associated with that usage is simplya byproduct of gaining thatcompliance.
No, Nazi, lethal force is NEVER to be used to gain compliance.

The only purpose of lethal force is to repel a lethal attack.

Nice, now I am a Nazi because I believe that a Taser device is not a lethal weapon? That is very comical.

That would be tantamount to me calling you an Anarchist.

I have been tasedand I am not dead. That must confuse your illogical banterings to the extreme. Perhaps you should actually study the ECD itself and draw some educated conclusions about it's capabilities and limitations, rather than read the media talking points about a technology most know nothing about.
 

Flintlock

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Glock34 wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
smoking357 wrote:
Taser needs to be out of business and its owners in jail. Using a taser in absence of the presence of a deadly weapon should land a cop in jail on an attempted murder charge, if this victim lives, a murder charge, if he doesn't.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Sold_as_nonlethal_Tasers_killed_400_1213.html
By using the samlogic in your post, on could argue thatgun manufacturers shoud be held responsible for the misuse and illegal use of their products and should not only be financially responsible, but alsolegally.

How absurd.
Tazers are nothing more than Torture devices to be used tokeep us SUBJECTS in line, ever see the movie THX1138 ? The police and their Pain Sticks ? Anyone that is for the overt misuse of the Tasers on the People, has to own stock in Taser.

You obviously misunderstood or simply didn't read my previous posts in this thread about the use of force.

Your logic can be used against you as the antis believe that AK-47's spray and kill everyone in their path, we must ban them because theinnocent might die. Think of the children!!

All weapons, both lethal and less-than-lethal can be misused by individuals. They should be held accountable when that occurs, without question. But to speak against a technology using pure emotionis not a sound argument.
 

Sheriff

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Flintlock wrote:
Nice, now I am a Nazi because I believe that a Taser device is not a lethal weapon?


I wouldn't say you're a Nazi.

I would say you are misinformed. Tasers are a lethal weapon in many cases.
 

Flintlock

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Sheriff wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
Nice, now I am a Nazi because I believe that a Taser device is not a lethal weapon?


I wouldn't say you're a Nazi.

I would say you are misinformed. Tasers are a lethal weapon in many cases.

I think not... And you provided no facts to back up your statement.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/201827_taser01.html

NMI is painful and effective, but it certainly is not lethal. Perhaps as it is commonly referred ( less-than lethal) is more appropriate. As you are well aware, a Taser ECD is not onthe same level on the Use-of-Force Continuum than firearms. There is a reason for that.

If it was lethal, the thousands of Police, Corrections, and Security related professionals that are tased to complete their certification would cease as there would be taser attributed deaths during training. To my knowledge at least, that has not been the case.

People were ranting about the same issues about OC in the 1990's butit was determined that some deaths were actually attributed to underlying causes and in some cases, being restrained, rather than the OC itself.That issuewas eventually put to rest. As you know, OC is nowuniversally accepted and isused in Law Enforcement, Corrections, and Security applications.

Eventually, ECD's will become accepted just the same. The media loves to throw out stats like 50,000 volts when not even close to that number actually enters the body, much less the low amp output of the device that is never reported.They just sound scary and typically I seesheep run in fear when they don't understand something.
 

smoking357

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Flintlock wrote:
NMI is painful and effective, but it certainly is not lethal. Perhaps as it is commonly referred ( less-than lethal) is more appropriate.
Tasers are very deadly, and lethality is a binary state. Imagine referring to your wife as "less than faithful" or your daughter as "less than a virgin" or "less than not pregnant."

We come up with all this newspeak to protect tyranny.

As you are well aware, a Taser ECD is not on the same level on the Use-of-Force Continuum than firearms. There is a reason for that.
The what? What sort of made-up classification is that? Never mind. Don't care about the state-speak jargon.
 

AWDstylez

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Flintlock wrote:
I have been tasedand I am not dead.

LOL Oh come on. That's a logic bucket FULL of fail.



No one has claimed tasers to be lethal 100% of the time. "Less-than-lethal" means exactly than, not lethal 100% of the time. By that logic, guns are "less-than-lethal" too. People survive getting shot all the time. Guns aren't lethal weapons.Getting shot is just... painful. :quirky
 
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