Devildog
Regular Member
imported post
I have a question, can you o/c at a high school football game if you have a cpl.
I have a question, can you o/c at a high school football game if you have a cpl.
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O/C Question
- Thread starter Devildog
- Start date
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
Yep, and state law would be fine with it. There is even an AG opinion, I believe that Granholm wrote, that says it's legal, because she was asked if reserve officers with CPLs could OC at schools. The debatable thing is whether or not a school is a unit of government covered by preemption, thus barring them from having gun prohibitions beyond state law. Therefore, I would say it's possible that you could be legally told to get off the property, and face a trespass charge if you didn't leave.
Aside from maybe one or two people on a couple of occasions, it's pretty much uncharted territory. In the suburbs of Detroit, or God help us Detroit itself, the odds of a bad, ignorant to the law police response are vastly higher.
It's something that case law would be nice on. It's my opinion that a publicly funded school should be covered by preemption, because duh, they're funded by the government and open to the public. It would be nice for college students 21 and over to be able to carry at school without facing the possibility of being expelled, and for parents to OC at kids schools without having to worry about being hassled by the police. The problem is that it would be a tricky and perhaps expensive thing to go about making happen.
Yep, and state law would be fine with it. There is even an AG opinion, I believe that Granholm wrote, that says it's legal, because she was asked if reserve officers with CPLs could OC at schools. The debatable thing is whether or not a school is a unit of government covered by preemption, thus barring them from having gun prohibitions beyond state law. Therefore, I would say it's possible that you could be legally told to get off the property, and face a trespass charge if you didn't leave.
Aside from maybe one or two people on a couple of occasions, it's pretty much uncharted territory. In the suburbs of Detroit, or God help us Detroit itself, the odds of a bad, ignorant to the law police response are vastly higher.
It's something that case law would be nice on. It's my opinion that a publicly funded school should be covered by preemption, because duh, they're funded by the government and open to the public. It would be nice for college students 21 and over to be able to carry at school without facing the possibility of being expelled, and for parents to OC at kids schools without having to worry about being hassled by the police. The problem is that it would be a tricky and perhaps expensive thing to go about making happen.
Devildog
Regular Member
imported post
Thanks bro, I think i just might have to try it out. Most games are patroled pretty heavy by the leo"s,
Thanks bro, I think i just might have to try it out. Most games are patroled pretty heavy by the leo"s,
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
I don't mean to sound like one of the anti OC people, but just keep in mind the abnormally high odds of trouble. What I would do, if I were going to do that, is send the PD of the jurisdiction you'll do it in a legal info packet, making sure the OC in CC free zones issue is well covered. Then, wait at least a couple weeks to go and do it. And when I did it, I'd be wired with recorders as always, but I'd also have other people there ready to record the situation.
Just so it's clear, I haven't done this myself, nor do I intend to any time soon, although I'll admire you if you do. It's legal by state law and backed by the MSP and the AG opinion, but as we've seen with theszerdi and elsewhere, just because something is legal that doesn't always make the police or out of line judges back off. As with all OCing, proceed with great caution, and remember, I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, so you can't hold me responsible if you do this and something bad happens. :uhoh:
I don't mean to sound like one of the anti OC people, but just keep in mind the abnormally high odds of trouble. What I would do, if I were going to do that, is send the PD of the jurisdiction you'll do it in a legal info packet, making sure the OC in CC free zones issue is well covered. Then, wait at least a couple weeks to go and do it. And when I did it, I'd be wired with recorders as always, but I'd also have other people there ready to record the situation.
Just so it's clear, I haven't done this myself, nor do I intend to any time soon, although I'll admire you if you do. It's legal by state law and backed by the MSP and the AG opinion, but as we've seen with theszerdi and elsewhere, just because something is legal that doesn't always make the police or out of line judges back off. As with all OCing, proceed with great caution, and remember, I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, so you can't hold me responsible if you do this and something bad happens. :uhoh:
T Vance
Regular Member
imported post
Let's say someone was arrested for legally OCing, we have all these AG opinions, MSP opions, and several Supreme Court cases on our side, then why spend a ton of money on a lawyer when you could just present these facts to the judge to prove that you did nothing wrong and not just fight the case yourself?
Let's say someone was arrested for legally OCing, we have all these AG opinions, MSP opions, and several Supreme Court cases on our side, then why spend a ton of money on a lawyer when you could just present these facts to the judge to prove that you did nothing wrong and not just fight the case yourself?
autosurgeon
Regular Member
imported post
I think others have done this Zig and DrTodd come to mind... but I am sure they will chime in!
I think others have done this Zig and DrTodd come to mind... but I am sure they will chime in!
Devildog
Regular Member
imported post
Dont worry Michigander I wont hold you responsible i would never blame anything i do on another person thanks for your input , It is very helpful, and i am not going to inform any Police about it what ever happens happens.
Dont worry Michigander I wont hold you responsible i would never blame anything i do on another person thanks for your input , It is very helpful, and i am not going to inform any Police about it what ever happens happens.
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
imported post
autosurgeon wrote:
I've never had to deal with a police officer in this regard per se, but I think Veritas is right, it could be handled w/out a lawyer. My preference, though, would be to avoid getting arrested in the first place. I've only had one issue, from a school employee who thought she new the law better than I. When I showed her the law, she was fine with it, but she sure did argue until that point.
I have OC'd in many public schools and have attended practices/games on the premises of various schools around West Michigan. I appreciate the fact that I can do this, but as a school district employee, I also see the value of not disrupting the school activity. I must say that I understand parent's and administrator's concern about firearms being present on campus. I don't AGREE with their concern if adults excercise their RKBA, but I can understand it.
In order to acknowledge the concern, excercise my RKBA, and to keep myself from being arrested, I do the following. You may or may not choose these "tactics' as you see fit:
1. Take a look at the district website, specifically board policies/ procedures. Rules concerning the possession of firearms might be there. It may be under "employees" (even though you are not an employee, they may refer to "anyone") or, it may be listed under "school functions". However, most schools specifically list "students" possessing firearms, but not community members.
Out of the 4 districts that I frequent, only one bans firearms from the schools, and in that case, only from school buildings. One lists nothing in regards to firearms, and 2 state that anyone may carry in accordance to Michigan firearm law. If anyone can't find the rules/board information for a particular school district, PM me and I will look it up for them.
2. I usually try to be discrete, but yet the firearm stays fully in plain view. Wearing a black shirt against which my black Glock does not stand out too much, keeping my side w/ holstered firearm away from students, keep some distance between me and anyone else while sitting, and keeping my travels to get food or use the restroom to a minimum.
3. This is one of the rare times that I actually carry a copy of the law with me and have a recorder ready to go, just in case I see an imminent arrest in my future.
4. If asked to leave, I would do that without argument but I would inform them of the legality and I would get the name of the person who is making the request. Besides recording it, as I would suggest during any negative OC experience, I would take extra care to note the who, what, where, how, and why of the situation; especially their ostensible reason "why".
I give you the information above knowing that in all likelihood, you will be fine. I have OC'd upwards of 500 times (yes, really); I don't think anyone even notices. This "unawareness" by others has been my experience with OC in general and it is just as true when I carry at a school.
If anyone needs more information, either Post here or PM me and I will help you any way I can.
autosurgeon wrote:
I've never had to deal with a police officer in this regard per se, but I think Veritas is right, it could be handled w/out a lawyer. My preference, though, would be to avoid getting arrested in the first place. I've only had one issue, from a school employee who thought she new the law better than I. When I showed her the law, she was fine with it, but she sure did argue until that point.
I have OC'd in many public schools and have attended practices/games on the premises of various schools around West Michigan. I appreciate the fact that I can do this, but as a school district employee, I also see the value of not disrupting the school activity. I must say that I understand parent's and administrator's concern about firearms being present on campus. I don't AGREE with their concern if adults excercise their RKBA, but I can understand it.
In order to acknowledge the concern, excercise my RKBA, and to keep myself from being arrested, I do the following. You may or may not choose these "tactics' as you see fit:
1. Take a look at the district website, specifically board policies/ procedures. Rules concerning the possession of firearms might be there. It may be under "employees" (even though you are not an employee, they may refer to "anyone") or, it may be listed under "school functions". However, most schools specifically list "students" possessing firearms, but not community members.
Out of the 4 districts that I frequent, only one bans firearms from the schools, and in that case, only from school buildings. One lists nothing in regards to firearms, and 2 state that anyone may carry in accordance to Michigan firearm law. If anyone can't find the rules/board information for a particular school district, PM me and I will look it up for them.
2. I usually try to be discrete, but yet the firearm stays fully in plain view. Wearing a black shirt against which my black Glock does not stand out too much, keeping my side w/ holstered firearm away from students, keep some distance between me and anyone else while sitting, and keeping my travels to get food or use the restroom to a minimum.
3. This is one of the rare times that I actually carry a copy of the law with me and have a recorder ready to go, just in case I see an imminent arrest in my future.
4. If asked to leave, I would do that without argument but I would inform them of the legality and I would get the name of the person who is making the request. Besides recording it, as I would suggest during any negative OC experience, I would take extra care to note the who, what, where, how, and why of the situation; especially their ostensible reason "why".
I give you the information above knowing that in all likelihood, you will be fine. I have OC'd upwards of 500 times (yes, really); I don't think anyone even notices. This "unawareness" by others has been my experience with OC in general and it is just as true when I carry at a school.
If anyone needs more information, either Post here or PM me and I will help you any way I can.
Devildog
Regular Member
imported post
thank you very much for that information. i do not want to disrupt any school functions either, Just want to exercise my rights. Thanks again
thank you very much for that information. i do not want to disrupt any school functions either, Just want to exercise my rights. Thanks again
imported post
Hello, I am new here, I only just found out a few days ago that it is legal to open carry in Michigan after reading an article about an OC picnic.
I have been reading a lot of the posts and threads here, the 'Wash, Rinse and Repeat' and the 'List your OC experiences' threads plus a few others.
From what I have read since I do not have a CPL I can not OC in stores that sell alcohol. These store come to mind, a shame because these are stores I shop in.
Kroger, Hiller's, Meijer, 7~Eleven, Rite Aid, Walgreen's, CVS, Aldi's, Sam's Club, Wal~Mart and Costco. I'm not sure if K~Mart sells alcohol or not, never really paid much attention if they did before since it isn't something I ever buy.
Does anyone here know what is the policy of OC'ing on public transportation, the SMART bus in Oakland county? I don't drive.
Also I have read the 'List your OC experience' thread looking for any mention of Berkley. Now that I know what stores I can't go into because they sell alcohol, I would like to know if anyone here has had any experiences with Berkley LE and whether they are aware that it is legal to OC and if anyone has had any unpleasant dealings with Berkley LE regarding OC'ing?
Any holster recommendations? I am left handed and female. I would be carrying a S&W 645 and/or a S&W 669, both over 20 years old. I do not have a lot of money to spend on one, money is tight right now.
Anyone OC'ing at the Dream Cruise? 13 and Woodward area?
Love this site, I have been here for many many hours since I found it, trying to absorb all the information here.
Hello, I am new here, I only just found out a few days ago that it is legal to open carry in Michigan after reading an article about an OC picnic.
I have been reading a lot of the posts and threads here, the 'Wash, Rinse and Repeat' and the 'List your OC experiences' threads plus a few others.
From what I have read since I do not have a CPL I can not OC in stores that sell alcohol. These store come to mind, a shame because these are stores I shop in.
Kroger, Hiller's, Meijer, 7~Eleven, Rite Aid, Walgreen's, CVS, Aldi's, Sam's Club, Wal~Mart and Costco. I'm not sure if K~Mart sells alcohol or not, never really paid much attention if they did before since it isn't something I ever buy.
Does anyone here know what is the policy of OC'ing on public transportation, the SMART bus in Oakland county? I don't drive.
Also I have read the 'List your OC experience' thread looking for any mention of Berkley. Now that I know what stores I can't go into because they sell alcohol, I would like to know if anyone here has had any experiences with Berkley LE and whether they are aware that it is legal to OC and if anyone has had any unpleasant dealings with Berkley LE regarding OC'ing?
Any holster recommendations? I am left handed and female. I would be carrying a S&W 645 and/or a S&W 669, both over 20 years old. I do not have a lot of money to spend on one, money is tight right now.
Anyone OC'ing at the Dream Cruise? 13 and Woodward area?
Love this site, I have been here for many many hours since I found it, trying to absorb all the information here.
zigziggityzoo
Campaign Veteran
imported post
First off, welcome!
KittyBomb wrote:
You just need to look for a holster that has retention features (thumb break strap, or other types of retention).
Again, Welcome! Please keep reading. There's lots of good info here.
-Zig
First off, welcome!
KittyBomb wrote:
You cannot carry on any vehicle without a CPL.
Can't answer that. If they aren't aware by now, they've had their heads in the sand.
I'm a lefty too. I use a Blackhawk Serpa for my Glock. I'm not sure if they make one for your gun.
You just need to look for a holster that has retention features (thumb break strap, or other types of retention).
Again, Welcome! Please keep reading. There's lots of good info here.
-Zig
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
KittyBomb wrote:
Welcome.
You are correct about the stores you mention and that ban makes OCing harder still. I think we had a get together in Berkley and I'm sure the local PD is aware of OC.
Carrying a firearm in any vehicle without a CPL is illegal. Once you enter any vehicle you can not have a firearm even in the open (unless you have a CPL) as it is now considered concealed. So riding in a bus or taxi with a loaded firearm would be unlawful.
I'm sure lots will be OCing at the Dream Cruise.
KittyBomb wrote:
Welcome.
You are correct about the stores you mention and that ban makes OCing harder still. I think we had a get together in Berkley and I'm sure the local PD is aware of OC.
Carrying a firearm in any vehicle without a CPL is illegal. Once you enter any vehicle you can not have a firearm even in the open (unless you have a CPL) as it is now considered concealed. So riding in a bus or taxi with a loaded firearm would be unlawful.
I'm sure lots will be OCing at the Dream Cruise.
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
imported post
KittyBomb wrote:
Welcome KittyBomb!
I believe that there was an OC meeting held at the Coffee Beanery last January in Berkley, I could be wrong though.
Seems like you've understood perhaps the most important parts of OC w/out a CPL: besides the general no carry zones, no carry on Liquor Control Commission licensed premises, and the vehicle issue.
For licensed lcc places, the state of Michigan has a website that lists all places that have a license. My understanding is that, as a person w/out a cpl, you would not only be prohibited from OCing on the premises of the places you mentioned, but also the little considered places that have an alcohol license. For example, I noticed that the Amway Grand Hotel in GR has a liquor license for room sales (room service); I believe many other hotels have this too. It appears that non-cpl OC would be prohibited there.
The transport issue is also a concern as you stated that you do not have a vehicle and therefore use public transportation. The transportation isssue exists because, according to the law for non-cpl holders, you may transport in a vehicle w/out a trunk in a locked case, but it needs to be out of reach (not immediately accessable) to not only you, but all other passengers.
I like your pistol choice: Miami Vice comes to mind. I think Crockett had a SW Mod. 645...
I would just try an on-line search for holsters and see what comes up, then go to a gun shop and check my firearm at the door and try those holsters they have. Others here will chime in on holster options, I really am not that knowledgeable in the area. If any member lives near Berkley, maybe they would be willing to help you out.
Thanks for joining and I look forward to your contribution to this site...
KittyBomb wrote:
Welcome KittyBomb!
I believe that there was an OC meeting held at the Coffee Beanery last January in Berkley, I could be wrong though.
Seems like you've understood perhaps the most important parts of OC w/out a CPL: besides the general no carry zones, no carry on Liquor Control Commission licensed premises, and the vehicle issue.
For licensed lcc places, the state of Michigan has a website that lists all places that have a license. My understanding is that, as a person w/out a cpl, you would not only be prohibited from OCing on the premises of the places you mentioned, but also the little considered places that have an alcohol license. For example, I noticed that the Amway Grand Hotel in GR has a liquor license for room sales (room service); I believe many other hotels have this too. It appears that non-cpl OC would be prohibited there.
The transport issue is also a concern as you stated that you do not have a vehicle and therefore use public transportation. The transportation isssue exists because, according to the law for non-cpl holders, you may transport in a vehicle w/out a trunk in a locked case, but it needs to be out of reach (not immediately accessable) to not only you, but all other passengers.
I like your pistol choice: Miami Vice comes to mind. I think Crockett had a SW Mod. 645...
I would just try an on-line search for holsters and see what comes up, then go to a gun shop and check my firearm at the door and try those holsters they have. Others here will chime in on holster options, I really am not that knowledgeable in the area. If any member lives near Berkley, maybe they would be willing to help you out.
Thanks for joining and I look forward to your contribution to this site...
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
I've been spotted by Berkley officers who did nothing about seeing me, although I've never had any direct interactions with them. It is possible, however unlikely, that some of them are aware OCing is legal, and others are not. You never want to just assume that police will be friendly, because even though we should all get along very well, some police just don't like us. Always carry a voice recorder, and perhaps a hide out video camera. ALWAYS. They are worth their weight in gold if you get wrongfully prosecuted.
In regards to a holster, Joes Army Navy almost always has a bunch of cheap surplus ones. It would be a good place to see if they have any. You really want something with good retention, although it might be tricky to find a cheaper left handed one that will fit either model.
I will be OCing at the Dream Cruise. I've been thinking I should start a thread about that.
I've been spotted by Berkley officers who did nothing about seeing me, although I've never had any direct interactions with them. It is possible, however unlikely, that some of them are aware OCing is legal, and others are not. You never want to just assume that police will be friendly, because even though we should all get along very well, some police just don't like us. Always carry a voice recorder, and perhaps a hide out video camera. ALWAYS. They are worth their weight in gold if you get wrongfully prosecuted.
In regards to a holster, Joes Army Navy almost always has a bunch of cheap surplus ones. It would be a good place to see if they have any. You really want something with good retention, although it might be tricky to find a cheaper left handed one that will fit either model.
I will be OCing at the Dream Cruise. I've been thinking I should start a thread about that.
imported post
[size="+3"][sub]Thank you zigziggityzoo, Venator, DrTodd and Michigander for the welcome and advice.
It really is a bit confusing with all the rules of where you can and can't go while OC'ing.
Thankfully this site is here and people with more knowledge about these things can offer advice to the person who is new to this.
If I would have thought it over more, I would have realized OC'ing on the bus isn't legal. I am still taking this all in.
Joes Army Navy sounds like a good option and I will look for one that has retention as a main feature, that trigger guard on my 645 makes it a bit more difficult to find one that can accommodate it. I was looking online earlier today and found some with retention for large frame 5 inch barrel S&W's but they listed not with the hooked trigger guard like the 645 has.
Any problem OC'ing with modified guns? Mine has been Mag~Na~Ported and the action was worked on for the previous owner. I was told he was a target shooter and a police officer by the gun store where I bought it.
I read some where a long time ago about some lawyers trying to make cases against people who have had their guns modified in some way to make out that they are more 'dangerous' than straight out of the box guns. Nonsense of course.
Adding a voice recorder to my list of things to get, thank you for that advice. I have read some of the horror stories on the List your OC experiences thread.
Thank you all again, looking forward to reading and learning much more here and posting here when I have questions.
* sorry for the huge font, I copy and pasted this from my computer rather than type it in the reply box, I couldn't make it any smaller. The internet has been misbehaving today. Loss of signal at times and stuff vanishes.
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[/size]
[size="+3"][sub]Thank you zigziggityzoo, Venator, DrTodd and Michigander for the welcome and advice.
It really is a bit confusing with all the rules of where you can and can't go while OC'ing.
Thankfully this site is here and people with more knowledge about these things can offer advice to the person who is new to this.
If I would have thought it over more, I would have realized OC'ing on the bus isn't legal. I am still taking this all in.
Joes Army Navy sounds like a good option and I will look for one that has retention as a main feature, that trigger guard on my 645 makes it a bit more difficult to find one that can accommodate it. I was looking online earlier today and found some with retention for large frame 5 inch barrel S&W's but they listed not with the hooked trigger guard like the 645 has.
Any problem OC'ing with modified guns? Mine has been Mag~Na~Ported and the action was worked on for the previous owner. I was told he was a target shooter and a police officer by the gun store where I bought it.
I read some where a long time ago about some lawyers trying to make cases against people who have had their guns modified in some way to make out that they are more 'dangerous' than straight out of the box guns. Nonsense of course.
Adding a voice recorder to my list of things to get, thank you for that advice. I have read some of the horror stories on the List your OC experiences thread.
Thank you all again, looking forward to reading and learning much more here and posting here when I have questions.
* sorry for the huge font, I copy and pasted this from my computer rather than type it in the reply box, I couldn't make it any smaller. The internet has been misbehaving today. Loss of signal at times and stuff vanishes.
[/sub]
[/size]
T Vance
Regular Member
imported post
If you have ANY questions pertaining to firearms, chances are someone will have an answer for you. It's better to ask a question to one of us and be sure about it before possibly being faced with a criminal charge when all you were trying to do was abide by the law.
Remember, read WASH, RINSE, REPEAT over and over until you now it from fron to back (also print a copy and keep it on you when carrying). Also, if you have an LEO encounter I suggest not answering any questions unless you have an attorney present. Chances are many LEO's are possibly just looking to get more information to charge you with a crime. Take it from me!
If you have ANY questions pertaining to firearms, chances are someone will have an answer for you. It's better to ask a question to one of us and be sure about it before possibly being faced with a criminal charge when all you were trying to do was abide by the law.
Remember, read WASH, RINSE, REPEAT over and over until you now it from fron to back (also print a copy and keep it on you when carrying). Also, if you have an LEO encounter I suggest not answering any questions unless you have an attorney present. Chances are many LEO's are possibly just looking to get more information to charge you with a crime. Take it from me!
pmcqueen37
Regular Member
imported post
Watch this video with regards to talking to the police
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8167533318153586646&hl=en
Watch this video with regards to talking to the police
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8167533318153586646&hl=en
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
Joes won't have something with abnormally good retention capabilities, just police/military surplus and air soft. Serpa's are the most common affordable retention holsters, but I can't seem to find any available for your particular models. There must be Safariland holsters that would fit, but they will be much more expensive.
On a tight budget, I still find that there are options if you get clever about it.
Here is what I call my poor mans rig
Got the holster at Joes. Used to be a revolver flap holster, and I modified the hell out of it with bolts and shoe goo to take my Sig. It holds the gun snugly, and the cross strap is a bit confusing if you don't know how to work it. I feel confident that it would make it difficult enough to snatch that I'd have the chance to simply draw on anyone who tried to grab it. It's not the smoothest and fastest thing out there, but it was 10 bucks, and the mag pouch was a single dollar. The performance is incredibly high for the price. This probably doesn't have much to do with what you'll end up doing, but the reason I'm posting about this is that it's important to remember that you can modify things to suit your needs.
Another couple things to keep in mind is that you can go over to Target sports, and ask what they have for holsters, and just tell them that you're comparison shopping, and want to find out what they have. They're too expensive for my tastes, but you can get some good information there, and they are definitely close by. Also remember that Dunhams might have a cheapie universal holster that will work, but be a little lacking for retention.
Joes won't have something with abnormally good retention capabilities, just police/military surplus and air soft. Serpa's are the most common affordable retention holsters, but I can't seem to find any available for your particular models. There must be Safariland holsters that would fit, but they will be much more expensive.
On a tight budget, I still find that there are options if you get clever about it.
Here is what I call my poor mans rig
Got the holster at Joes. Used to be a revolver flap holster, and I modified the hell out of it with bolts and shoe goo to take my Sig. It holds the gun snugly, and the cross strap is a bit confusing if you don't know how to work it. I feel confident that it would make it difficult enough to snatch that I'd have the chance to simply draw on anyone who tried to grab it. It's not the smoothest and fastest thing out there, but it was 10 bucks, and the mag pouch was a single dollar. The performance is incredibly high for the price. This probably doesn't have much to do with what you'll end up doing, but the reason I'm posting about this is that it's important to remember that you can modify things to suit your needs.
Another couple things to keep in mind is that you can go over to Target sports, and ask what they have for holsters, and just tell them that you're comparison shopping, and want to find out what they have. They're too expensive for my tastes, but you can get some good information there, and they are definitely close by. Also remember that Dunhams might have a cheapie universal holster that will work, but be a little lacking for retention.