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Thread: Getting a carry gun

  1. #1
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    I saw a thread similar to this on MGO's site in regards to a man and his wife getting there first CPL guns. Below are my thoughts:


    As a long time CPL instructor and new concealed carry accessories retail store owner, I of course have some advice:

    1) You pick out your gun, your wife picks out hers. You both are different people with different size, shape, and needs, pick a gun out accordingly. Do this by shooting friends' guns, or renting at your local range. The gun should fit YOU.

    2) pick out a gun that is comfortable to shoot accurately, repetitively, ONE handed (guns that require 2 hands to shoot accurately in the heat of battle are NOT good choices, as you will likely have only 1 hand available to shoot with, remember Murphy's Law ALWAYS applies),and is of a decent 'effective' caliber. I would also recommend a high as possible capacity within these parameters, as less manipulation of the gun during the fight is better.

    3) Be honest in regards to yourself, your size/shape, and routine. If the gun doesn't 'fit' you, you'll leave it at home.

    4) Don't get too wrapped up in the 9mm vs. 40 vs. 45 debates. A handgun (not handsgun) is only marginally effective at best, and will require multiple hits to perform its job. If the recoil is too much due to its caliber/size that you can't get accurate second or third shots, what's the point? Remember, you are responsible for every bullet you launch out of your handgun, regardless where it goes. Wouldn't it be better if they all went into the threat? For example: I personally find that 45 acp in smaller guns, like the Taurus PT Millennium series, is a more accurate and controllable package than either the 9mm or the 40 S&W( I've shot them all, a lot).

    5) If the guns meet the previous criteria, you and your wife should carry similar guns/caliber. For example, glocks and S&W M&P's and Springfield XD’s (not the new M) all use interchangeable magazines. If you are forced into an armed encounter, wouldn't it be comforting to know that you can hand spare magazines back and forth if one of you runs out? It also makes buying spare ammunition, whether for practice, defense, or getting reloading components a little less difficult on the logistics side, if not more economical (IE buying in bulk).Not to forget mentioning, that if one of you is injured, the other will already be intimately familiar with the others gun (remember Murphy?)

    6) And finally, I guess, don't be too afraid to ask questions, because the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. It is only your life/safety we are talking about, right?
    You've got a good start here, but listen to everything with a grain of salt. Because gun/caliber choices can (and quite often are) a preference based upon subjective feelings, as opposed to hard data.

    If I can help in any further fashion, please do not hesitate to ask.

    And YOUR thoughts are?

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    Well said! I'm someone who not very long ago bought his first carry and received his CPL. One key thing to focus on is comfort. You must be comfortable with your purchase. I was happy with my pick H&K USP Compact 40. If I made the choice again though considering I CC everywhere I go I would have chosen something more comfortable in a IWB holster. My next purchase will be a Kahr PM45. I love my H&K but at times it can be quite uncomfortable IWB especially on a long drive or trip. The Kahr PM series for me is the perfect size for for the comfort.

    I definitely recommend trying everything out before hand. Definitely rent an fire the pistol you're interested in. Even buy a holster or borrow a holster and see how it feels. Many times in the store if you're looking at buying both you can try it on before hand. Considering that all these items are not cheep at all you want to be 100% sure before you buy.

    When buying don't buy at the first couple stores you visit. My best deals have been online speicifically gunbroker.com .. I've seen $100+ difference in price depending on where you look. Ammo is another story at this point it's been so hard to come by out here I've not been picky.

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    Just so I'm clear... you say that Glocks and M&P's have interchangeable magazines? Good to know, considering Glock mags are much easier to come by. Plus they've got those nifty 30-rounders. :-P

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    Well said. I sort of laughed because a friend of mine because he sometimes carries a .22LR. He pulled it out at the range, and at 15 yards, was able to dump all 10 rounds in the target's face as fast as he could squeeze the trigger. I didn't question him again after that. If it fits you, and your shot placement is good with it, that's all that matters.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    malignity wrote:
    Well said. I sort of laughed because a friend of mine because he sometimes carries a .22LR. He pulled it out at the range, and at 15 yards, was able to dump all 10 rounds in the target's face as fast as he could squeeze the trigger. I didn't question him again after that. If it fits you, and your shot placement is good with it, that's all that matters.
    Yep that is my contention for carrying my CZ82 in 9mm Mak I can overlap shots when point shooting so I really am not concerned about the small caliber!

    Really you should carry what you are most proficient with as missed shots all have a lawyer attached and will seek out a person to hit so they can sue you
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Veritas wrote:
    Just so I'm clear... you say that Glocks and M&P's have interchangeable magazines? Good to know, considering Glock mags are much easier to come by. Plus they've got those nifty 30-rounders. :-P
    For those new to the program (I don't know what ":-P" means), but this is not true.

    He meant that Glocks have interchangeable mags in the same caliber (sometimes different calibers depending on guns and calibers), and that M&P's have interchangeable mags in the same caliber.

    Glock mags won't fit in an M&P.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    For those new to the program (I don't know what ":-P" means), but this is not true.

    He meant that Glocks have interchangeable mags in the same caliber (sometimes different calibers depending on guns and calibers), and that M&P's have interchangeable mags in the same caliber.

    Glock mags won't fit in an M&P.
    I think I was hung up on his use of the world "similar" versus "same" when referring to caliber. I misread... I thought he was referring to similar pistols (Glock vs M&P) chambered in the same caliber versus similar calibers chambered in the same pistol (9mm M&P vs .40 M&P). I know you can't interchange a 9mm and a .40, so I was left to assume he meant you could interchange a 9mm Glock with a 9mm M&P (or .40, as it were).

    I get what he's saying now. My buddy has an M&P 9mm and his mags fit my .40... problem is that the rounds won't chamber (duh). You also cannot load up .40 ammo in a 9mm mag; or vice versa. I know this because, at the range a few months ago, we got our empty mags mixed up and each tried loading bullets into the wrong mags and ended up in a brief "WTF" moment when things didn't fit as they were supposed to.

    I think, theoretically, you can probably fire .40 rounds from a 9mm magazine (at least with M&P) because I was able to load up 9 .40 rounds into my buddys 9mm magazine before I noticed a problem. The tenth bullet stuck out in a funny way as the spring was at full capacity and could not take any more. This said, I certainly don't want to test the theory by trying to fire bullets from a magazine designed for a different caliber.

    So I suppose a more accurate way of putting it is to say that he and his wife should consider purchasing pistols chambered in the SAME caliber and with the capability to interchange mags. In other words, two 9mm Glocks or two .40 M&P's... whatever the case may be.

    I confuse myself sometimes.

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    By the way... ":-P" is simply an emoticon depicting a face that's sticking it's tongue out. It's something I use when I'm saying something playful.

    I was referring to the 30-round Glock magazines... and salivating at the notion that I might actually be able to find a 30-round magazine for my M&P.

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    Back to the subject at hand...

    My carry weapon is a .40 caliber. I chose it as a middle-of-the-road compromise. Not as much power as a .45, but stronger than a 9mm. Less accurate than a 9mm, but more accurate than a .45. By playing around with higher or lower grain bullets, I can pretty much match the effectiveness of a 9mm or a .45; depending on what I feel I need (accuracy or power). Plus, I can swap the barrel and take .357 SIG... something I can't do with a 9mm or a .45. Bullet pricing played a very small role in my decision... since training with my weapon is important to me, I didn't want to spend a mint financing bullets. Again, this is another category that the .40 compromised well in.

    As for manufacturer, my choices were narrowed down to Glock or Smith & Wesson M&P. I went with S&W because I just like the feel better. The grip is just awesome... the interchangeable palm swells make it that much sweeter (I prefer the large size). And I absolutely can't stand Glock triggers. Some people love them... I'm not one of those people. The added bonus is that S&W is American made. Plus I like the fact that the slide will close itself when a new mag is slapped into the well; unlike Glock. That little detail can prove to be useful in a stressful situation... I won't have to worry so much about remembering to hit the slide release after reloading. I also like the option of being able to drop my mag, with a chambered round, and not having the weapon fire. M&P makes models that DON'T have this option... but I sought out the model that does. It's just my little insurance policy in case someone wrestles my pistol away from me.

    So having decided on M&P .40 caliber, the only question was, "Full size or compact?" I went with compact only because it's a little lighter and easier to conceal; should I need to. Again, the .40 caliber was a great compromise here because the shorter barrel in a compact pistol tends to make a .45 kick a little harder and screws with the trajectory of a 9mm; reducing accuracy in both cases. After firing all of the above through the compact model, I didn't notice much of a difference between the recoil on a 9mm versus .40... but I DID notice a difference in the .45 versus .40. At the end of the day, I found that my shots grouped tighter with the .40 out of all of the above.

    Carrying compact, however, generally means you give up as many as five rounds in magazine capacity. I got around this little dilemma by scoring full size mags and outfitting them with X-Grips to cover the gap. So what I have is a compact pistol with full-size magazine capacity. When I'm concealing, however, I sometimes opt to go down to the compact mags (10 bullets versus 15) to reduce the overall size.

    My only qualm so far with the M&P is that there is next to nothing as far as after-market hop-ups go. Glock has all sorts of goodies... M&P is still new to market so companies haven't yet produced a whole lot. Speaking of which, I emailed Lasermax recently about their compression spring laser system and they informed that they will be rolling out a model for the full-size M&P later this year. Still no plans to launch a product for the compact version yet, though. Does anyone know if the full size M&P springs are the same as the compact versions? My gut instinct tells me no because there is a 2" inch difference in barrel length. But you never know.

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    Veritas wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    For those new to the program (I don't know what ":-P" means), but this is not true.

    He meant that Glocks have interchangeable mags in the same caliber (sometimes different calibers depending on guns and calibers), and that M&P's have interchangeable mags in the same caliber.

    Glock mags won't fit in an M&P.
    I think I was hung up on his use of the world "similar" versus "same" when referring to caliber. I misread... I thought he was referring to similar pistols (Glock vs M&P) chambered in the same caliber versus similar calibers chambered in the same pistol (9mm M&P vs .40 M&P). I know you can't interchange a 9mm and a .40, so I was left to assume he meant you could interchange a 9mm Glock with a 9mm M&P (or .40, as it were).

    I get what he's saying now. My buddy has an M&P 9mm and his mags fit my .40... problem is that the rounds won't chamber (duh). You also cannot load up .40 ammo in a 9mm mag; or vice versa. I know this because, at the range a few months ago, we got our empty mags mixed up and each tried loading bullets into the wrong mags and ended up in a brief "WTF" moment when things didn't fit as they were supposed to.

    I think, theoretically, you can probably fire .40 rounds from a 9mm magazine (at least with M&P) because I was able to load up 9 .40 rounds into my buddys 9mm magazine before I noticed a problem. The tenth bullet stuck out in a funny way as the spring was at full capacity and could not take any more. This said, I certainly don't want to test the theory by trying to fire bullets from a magazine designed for a different caliber.

    So I suppose a more accurate way of putting it is to say that he and his wife should consider purchasing pistols chambered in the SAME caliber and with the capability to interchange mags. In other words, two 9mm Glocks or two .40 M&P's... whatever the case may be.

    I confuse myself sometimes.
    Thanks for the info on the ":P-". I wasn't sure if you were joking about what you said, or if you were serious.

    Here's what I know about what he said.

    I don't know about M&P's, but do know about Glocks. Example in 9mm. G17, G19, G26, and G18. The G26 will take the mags from all of the above. The G19 will take mags out of the G17, G18, and G19. Likewise the .40 S&W with the G22, G23, and G27. The .40 S&W guns will also allow one to change and shoot either 9mm, or .357 Sig with a barrel swap, and mag swap in the 9mm (.40 S&W and .357 Sig take the same mags. )

    Example:
    A G23 shoots .40 S&W, but can shoot either 9mm, or .357 Sig with the proper conversion barrel. No mag change is needed to go from .40 to .357, but it is necessary to go from either to 9mm. The mag bodies from the G23, G32 (.357 Sig)are the same, .

    Confused yet?:P


    Edited to correction:

    On second thought, I'm not sure if the 9mm bodies will interchange with the .40S&W/.357 Sig. The feed lips might present a problem. They will fit in the gun, just might not function well.

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Taurus guns are that way as well ... to a point anyway. The smaller guns in a family will take the larger guns mags... of course they must be the same caliber too.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Veritas wrote:
    Just so I'm clear... you say that Glocks and M&P's have interchangeable magazines? Good to know, considering Glock mags are much easier to come by. Plus they've got those nifty 30-rounders. :-P
    To Clarify, same caliber Glock magazines are interchangeable, and Same caliber M&P magazines are interchangeable. For example, you can use a Glock 22 mag in a glock 23 and a 27, but not the other way around. Glock magazines are NOT interchangeable with M&P's. Sorry for the confusion.



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    I get it now. Had to read it about three times to make sense of it all though. :-P

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    I have a Glock 23 (which came with two 13 round mags), and it does accept the Glock 22 mags (which hold 15 rounds, though the mag will stick out of my frame a little bit). They also have these you can buy for a G23 too. I want to get one.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=496418

    Imagine me shoppingwith my G23 with this magazine in it!:what:

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    Veritas wrote:
    Back to the subject at hand...

    My carry weapon is a .40 caliber. I chose it as a middle-of-the-road compromise. Not as much power as a .45, but stronger than a 9mm. Less accurate than a 9mm, but more accurate than a .45. By playing around with higher or lower grain bullets, I can pretty much match the effectiveness of a 9mm or a .45; depending on what I feel I need (accuracy or power). Plus, I can swap the barrel and take .357 SIG... something I can't do with a 9mm or a .45. Bullet pricing played a very small role in my decision... since training with my weapon is important to me, I didn't want to spend a mint financing bullets. Again, this is another category that the .40 compromised well in.
    .45acp is no more or less accurate than 9mm. The actual size of the bullet does not affect accuracy...accuracy is all on the shooter and the platform. It's the Indian more than the arrow.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Although some people shoot one or the other more accurately so that is why it is nice to have so many choices!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    sevenplusone wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    Back to the subject at hand...

    My carry weapon is a .40 caliber.* I chose it as a middle-of-the-road compromise.* Not as much power as a .45, but stronger than a 9mm.* Less accurate than a 9mm, but more accurate than a .45.* By playing around with higher or lower grain bullets, I can pretty much match the effectiveness of a 9mm or a .45; depending on what I feel I need (accuracy or power).* Plus, I can swap the barrel and take .357 SIG... something I can't do with a 9mm or a .45.* Bullet pricing played a very small role in my decision... since training with my weapon is important to me, I didn't want to spend a mint financing bullets.* Again, this is another category that the .40 compromised well in.
    .45acp is no more or less accurate than 9mm. The actual size of the bullet does not affect accuracy...accuracy is all on the shooter and the platform. It's the Indian more than the arrow.
    You are correct but there is a difference in stopping power.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Stopping power is really a myth. Unless you hit just the right spot even a big bullet will not knock down or stop a BG. My contention has always been that shot placement is key! Many more people have been killed with a .22 than any other caliber!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Stopping power is really a myth. Unless you hit just the right spot even a big bullet will not knock down or stop a BG. My contention has always been that shot placement is key! Many more people have been killed with a .22 than any other caliber!
    I agree with that in terms of defensive handguns. But the effectiveness of big bore hunting handguns and long arms is a totally different story.
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    Correct although very few people carry a .454 or a .50 action exspress! And rifles are rifles and pistols are weak by comparison!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    mikestilly wrote:
    sevenplusone wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    Back to the subject at hand...

    My carry weapon is a .40 caliber. I chose it as a middle-of-the-road compromise. Not as much power as a .45, but stronger than a 9mm. Less accurate than a 9mm, but more accurate than a .45. By playing around with higher or lower grain bullets, I can pretty much match the effectiveness of a 9mm or a .45; depending on what I feel I need (accuracy or power). Plus, I can swap the barrel and take .357 SIG... something I can't do with a 9mm or a .45. Bullet pricing played a very small role in my decision... since training with my weapon is important to me, I didn't want to spend a mint financing bullets. Again, this is another category that the .40 compromised well in.
    .45acp is no more or less accurate than 9mm. The actual size of the bullet does not affect accuracy...accuracy is all on the shooter and the platform. It's the Indian more than the arrow.
    You are correct but there is a difference in stopping power.
    I never said anything about stopping power (which I don't entirely believe in). The 9mm and the .45acp are both legitimate and effective combat handgun rounds. I wouldn't question anybody who chooses either of them. Just a personal choice, but I don't care for .40 Short n Weak due to it's unusually snappy recoil for the ballistics it provides. To each their own. We all make our choice. Practice is ultimately more important.

    I merely pointed out that the statement "a 9mm is more accurate than a .45" is not true. I don't understand what justification the OP of this statement has...though I'm interested in hearing it.

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    sevenplusone wrote:
    .45acp is no more or less accurate than 9mm. The actual size of the bullet does not affect accuracy...accuracy is all on the shooter and the platform. It's the Indian more than the arrow.
    It's not so much the bullet itself, but the recoil it creates. In a smaller frame pistol, the recoil is greater on larger calibers; making grouping less accurate. In other words, if you're just firing off one round... then yeah, there's not much difference between the calibers. But if you're double or triple tapping... it takes longer to reacquire your target when firing larger calibers... especially from compact pistols.

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    Veritas wrote:
    sevenplusone wrote:
    .45acp is no more or less accurate than 9mm. The actual size of the bullet does not affect accuracy...accuracy is all on the shooter and the platform. It's the Indian more than the arrow.
    It's not so much the bullet itself, but the recoil it creates. In a smaller frame pistol, the recoil is greater on larger calibers; making grouping less accurate. In other words, if you're just firing off one round... then yeah, there's not much difference between the calibers. But if you're double or triple tapping... it takes longer to reacquire your target when firing larger calibers... especially from compact pistols.
    That is my feeling as well!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Veritas wrote:
    It's not so much the bullet itself, but the recoil it creates. In a smaller frame pistol, the recoil is greater on larger calibers; making grouping less accurate. In other words, if you're just firing off one round... then yeah, there's not much difference between the calibers. But if you're double or triple tapping... it takes longer to reacquire your target when firing larger calibers... especially from compact pistols.
    It doesn't seem to be much of a concern for those of us who open carry, because we have no problems carrying larger guns.
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    Michigander wrote:
    It doesn't seem to be much of a concern for those of us who open carry, because we have no problems carrying larger guns.
    Large gun or compact... either way, a larger caliber bullet is going to kick more than a smaller one.

    I don't have an issue carrying a larger gun, but I choose to carry a compact for a variety of reasons; one of which being that it is easier to conceal (should I need to) but another reason being that it's just a heck of a lot more comfortable when going about daily duties. When driving, for instance, the barrel on my compact doesn't dig into my seat when worn on my hip. And while it may be arguable, I believe that a compact pistol can be drawn faster than a full size... there's about 2 inches less steel that must clear the sheath before leveling it at a target. Fraction of a second? Maybe... but a fraction of a second is still a fraction of a second.

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