Four killed in shooting in Collier

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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09216/988585-100.stm
Tuesday, August 04, 2009 By Matt Smith, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

A gunman carrying a duffel bag walked into a rear door of an L.A. Fitness center in Collier this evening and opened fire, shooting more than 10 people, witnesses said.
Allegheny County police said at least four people were believed to be dead, according to KDKA-TV.

Ashley, Ogordowski, 23, of Muse, Washington County, said she was in a low-impact exercise class when a man came in a back door and started shooting.

"I was crouched to the side with a girl who was not my friend... shoot... shoot... shoot...'' she said, dissolving into tears.

She said she was told as many as eight to 10 people had been wounded. Among them was a friend of hers.

"All I want to do now is find out what happened to my friend."

The scene outside the fitness center was chaotic as dozens of ambulances, police cars and other emergency vehicles converged on the area.

According to Lauren Dooley, 26, a member of the gym who was inside when the shooting took place. She was on second floor and shooting happened on first floor
Ms. Dooley was on the treadmill with her iPod on loudly when she heard the shots.

"And I saw people flying off the treadmills hitting the ground" for cover, Ms. Dooley said. "We crawled through the fire escape and I sprinted out the back."

She said she heard 12 to 15 shots.

She believes shooting took place in aerobics room on first floor.

A man who was playing racquetball inside when heard shots said the scene inside was total chaos.

"It was panic," Perry Calabro, 53, of Bridgeville, "then we realized it was gunfire. Once the shooting started, everybody started running. "

He thought he heard about 8 shots.

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CNN reports 5 dead and 15 wounded at 10:55 PM Eastern Time.

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Prediciton of reaction to this news story:



Gun Advocates -- "We need more guns!"

Anti-gunners -- "We need fewer guns!"



Same-O. Oh, same.

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I don't want to sound clairvoyant or anything, but I was just thinking the other evening that we haven't had a mass-murder for a while and that we were about due.

Time to polish up the letters to the editor,get ready for the on-line news organization polls, etc. Defense and counter-attack.

Of course, maybe attack first would be the right response. Some ideas; just thinking out loud:

"When are people going to get real and prepare for self-defense?"

"At what point are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who refuse to be ready to defend themselves. In this day and age, when the 2nd Amendment is recognized by varying degrees of shall-issue in 44 states (including PA.)"

"Out of twenty people shot in the room/facility, NONE thought personal defense important enough to have a gun with them?"

"I won't say they deserved it, they didn't, but, come on! After VA Tech, Trolley Square, the church shooting, the college auditorium shooting, and the Nordstroms shooting, these people did not consider self-defense important enough to be armed?"

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Citizen wrote:

Of course, maybe attack first would be the right response. Some ideas; just thinking out loud:

"When are people going to get real and prepare for self-defense?"

"At what point are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who refuse to be ready to defend themselves. In this day and age, when the 2nd Amendment is recognized by varying degrees of shall-issue in 44 states (including PA.)"

"Out of twenty people shot in the room/facility, NONE thought personal defense important enough to have a gun with them?"

Click to expand...

Sure, let's blame the victims somehow.

That's a real good idea, Citizen.Not.

Your idea is absurd. The most absurd idea I've heard in a lonnnnnnngggg time.

Where do you come up with ideas like that?

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Hank,did you hit the quote button before I wrote the last line at 11:23, and then post just minutes later?

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Citizen wrote:

Hank,did you hit the quote button before I wrote the last line at 11:23, and then post just minutes later?

Click to expand...

Why do you insist on diverting attention from the criticism of your comments?


Here's the point, the astonishing point:


You are advocating a strategy of response that blames the victims! The victims are women! And they were shot and murdered!


Citizen, you should apologize to the forum for your absurd statement of "attack" strategy.

You embarass the gun owner and gun carrier communities with this petulant and

inhumane nonsense.

I feel very sorry for you.

Being a supporter of guns and gun rights is a good thing.

Being heartless and callously in favor of blaming victims for their demise is not necessary to advocate for guns and 2A. It is actually antithetical to it.

I reject your morbid and simplistic advocacy. You do not speak for me. You damage our constituency's reputation.

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Hey!! The thread has been unlocked!! Cool!

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HankT wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Hank,did you hit the quote button before I wrote the last line at 11:23, and then post just minutes later?

Click to expand...

Why do you insist on diverting attention from the criticism of your comments?

Click to expand...

Because you missed a line. Its hardly "insistence" to ask one question, especially if it might tend to clear up a misunderstanding on your part.

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HankT wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Hank,did you hit the quote button before I wrote the last line at 11:23, and then post just minutes later?

Click to expand...

Why do you insist on diverting attention from the criticism of your comments?

Here's the point, the astonishing point:

You are advocating a strategy of response that blames the victims! The victims are women! And they were shot and murdered!

Citizen, you should apologize to the forum for your absurd statement of "attack" strategy.

You embarass the gun owner and gun carrier communities with this petulant and

inhumane nonsense.

I feel very sorry for you.

Being a supporter of guns and gun rights is a good thing.

Being heartless and callously in favor of blaming victims for their demise is not necessary to advocate for guns and 2A. It is actually antithetical to it.

I reject your morbid and simplistic advocacy. You do not speak for me. You damage our constituency's reputation.

Click to expand...

The attack strategy is to go on the offensive in the press rather than wait to defend against the anti-gunners lies, as compared to attacking the victims. Check the flow and wording. Although not explicit, its not that hard to see it, either. I do admit I should have foreseen the possibility that my words would be interpreted your way.

As to blaming the victims, just because I didn't blame the gunman does not mean I am holding him blameless. See that third line.

Also, Imade it pretty clear I was thinking out loud. This translates into "exploring angles."

As to blaming the victims, lets have some straight talk here, rather than politically correct sympathy.

While none of the victimsdeserved it, I do not owe my sympathy to someone who has not armed themselves. Just so no one misses it, I will say it again. I do not owe my sympathy to someone who has not armed themselves. This excludes thepoor and incapable, of course, but I can't see that at a fitness club.

There have been numerous mass-murders in the last 2-3 years. You have to live in a complete bubble not to have heard about them. You have to live in a self-made illusory safety bubble to think it can't happen. Going around hoping it won't is not much better. CCW's are not at all difficult for a law-abiding citizen to get in PA. PA is a shall-issue state, remember. I really can't understand why those people didn't arm themselves. At least one person? Come on.

Also, we can't blame this one thegovernment disarming people. As I said, PA is a shall-issue state.

Regarding harming 2A. Lets be frank. Who harms 2A more? Me for un-PC ideas? Or masses ofpeople who let themselves be gunned down, giving more grist to the anti-gunner's mill. People who, seemingly, are perpetuating the anti-gunner's preferred attitude by not being armed. More blood, more shock, more scare. For more sheep to clamor louder for more self-defense restrictions.

PC hasn't saved lives. Why continue to be PC? Why not a little tough love? Letting the victims bask in the glory of their victimhood and the attitudes that contributed it to isn't going to help. Did you miss theVA Tech families who joined the anti-gun crusade?

Oh, and never mind that the dead don't care whether they get sympathy. So, who is the sympathy for? The wounded? Sure. Give them just as much as they need to get them back on their feet, and then push them to stand up for themselves. Their families? Sure. Same thing. Just enough, then let them get back on their feet. The anti-gunners who want the world to be sympathetic. "See how those poor people were killed? Evil guns did it! More gun control!" The anti-gunners need victimhood.Victims and sympathy are very closely bound together.

You make out like when the press gets fired up tomorrow that my suggestions will destroy the credibility of 2A. I should thank you for thinking I could have such far-reaching effects. But, I think it will be a bit closer to reality to realize that lots of people in 2A will be expressing enough regret and sympathy to meet PC expectations.

So, why not heave some tough love into the mix?

And, since they wereliterally off-the-cuff suggestions, you're really not saying much of your fellow 2A-ers if you failed to consider that even if they did use my suggestions, that they wouldn't have tweaked them to incorporate an acceptable level of regret or sympathy. See that third line again. Iknew some declaration would need to be made. Did you think everybody else would overlook it?

So, tweak the suggestions. Come up with new ones. Use mine as a springboard for better ones.

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Lets shift the focus slightly, and the tense/timing. How about this idea:

"Not one of these people deserved what happened to them. Our hearts go out to the survivors.

But, lets also have an honest discussion. They were defenseless. They didn't have to be. Something can be done about it, something you can do.Lets reduce the number ofdefenseless victims, including, potentially, you.You can do somethingto make sure we don't read about you one day.Get your CCW permit application today. Lets have more people who can fight back. If only one person had been armed in Collier..."

Needs some tweaking to get the "person" consistent, eh?

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I wonder why the shooter isn't (yet) one of HankT's Goof-with-a-gun boy friends? It is unfortunate that no one was able to shoot back. Maybe someday someone will be able to put HankT out of his misery.

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My mother mentioned this story to me earlier today; she wanted to know how women should arm themselves while participating in a "low-impact exercise class". It does kind of beg the question.

And it makes me wonder... it seems these types of people seek out areas where they know that will have unarmed victims amassed for their "shooting fish in a barrel"-style massacres.

Even if the average low-impact exercise class is modified so that women are always near their handguns, a suicidal "glory"-seeker can always seeks out the next least unlikely-to-have-armed-participants activity -- all the way down to elementary schools.

People can't -- and shouldn't -- be expected to be armed 24 hours a day during every activity, even though some of us here may not have any activities which make being so armed impracticable for us personally.

It seems to me the issue is a little deeper than merely not having enough armed citizens, when one considers that the perpetrators always seek out unarmed victims. And let's face it, for every activity where being armed may become common, there will be another where it will remain, for one reason or another, quite rare.

On the other hand, if people did arm themselves more, perhaps it would seem pertinent to have security at places where people tend to disarm (like the gym), even as security becomes redundant at the mall.

Let's hope some of these incidents are stopped short by lawfully armed citizens in the future, and the media-fueled "glory" is denied to its seeker, potentially discouraging further suicidal name-makers before this "trend" gets any more out of control.

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marshaul wrote:

My mother mentioned this story to me earlier today; she wanted to know how women should arm themselves while participating in a "low-impact exercise class". It does kind of beg the question.

Click to expand...

Where there's a will, there's a way.

I would suggest trying a well-fitting fanny-pack holster. Obviously it'd have to fit snugly to the body so it doesn't bounce around. Let me know if it works.

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HankT wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Of course, maybe attack first would be the right response. Some ideas; just thinking out loud:

"When are people going to get real and prepare for self-defense?"

"At what point are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who refuse to be ready to defend themselves. In this day and age, when the 2nd Amendment is recognized by varying degrees of shall-issue in 44 states (including PA.)"

"Out of twenty people shot in the room/facility, NONE thought personal defense important enough to have a gun with them?"

Click to expand...

Sure, let's blame the victims somehow.

That's a real good idea, Citizen.Not.

Your idea is absurd. The most absurd idea I've heard in a lonnnnnnngggg time.

Where do you come up with ideas like that?

Click to expand...

Society already looks down on people who get die in car accidents and weren't wearing seatbelts or die in a fire when their house had no smoke detectors, failing to utilize a common safety device such as a handgun to save your own life is not a virtue. Do you think it so different just because these folks were murdered by a misogynistic psychopath?

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longwatch wrote:

HankT wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Of course, maybe attack first would be the right response. Some ideas; just thinking out loud:

"When are people going to get real and prepare for self-defense?"

"At what point are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who refuse to be ready to defend themselves. In this day and age, when the 2nd Amendment is recognized by varying degrees of shall-issue in 44 states (including PA.)"

"Out of twenty people shot in the room/facility, NONE thought personal defense important enough to have a gun with them?"

Click to expand...

Sure, let's blame the victims somehow.

That's a real good idea, Citizen.Not.

Your idea is absurd. The most absurd idea I've heard in a lonnnnnnngggg time.

Where do you come up with ideas like that?

Click to expand...

Society already looks down on people who get die in car accidents and weren't wearing seatbelts or die in a fire when their house had no smoke detectors, failing to utilize a common safety device such as a handgun to save your own life is not a virtue. Do you think it so different just because these folks were murdered by a misogynistic psychopath?

Click to expand...

Longwatch, did you have anything to do with locking this thread last night?

The answer to your question is obviously, yes. Your comparison is, to say the least is abhorrently strained.

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Society already looks down on people who get die in car accidents and weren't wearing seatbelts or die in a fire when their house had no smoke detectors, failing to utilize a common safety device such as a handgun to save your own life is not a virtue. Do you think it so different just because these folks were murdered by a misogynistic psychopath?

Click to expand...

Great point!

I have enjoyed such ignorant prejudice for eschewing bicycle hat/hell-mutts. The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

Anile Henrietta doesn't need correspondents for presuming to speak for all. It's like a conversation between HankT and HenriettaTA, between the sockpuppet and the puppeteer - with his hand up Hank's nether orifice.

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HankT wrote:

longwatch wrote:

HankT wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Of course, maybe attack first would be the right response. Some ideas; just thinking out loud:

"When are people going to get real and prepare for self-defense?"

"At what point are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who refuse to be ready to defend themselves. In this day and age, when the 2nd Amendment is recognized by varying degrees of shall-issue in 44 states (including PA.)"

"Out of twenty people shot in the room/facility, NONE thought personal defense important enough to have a gun with them?"

Click to expand...

Sure, let's blame the victims somehow.

That's a real good idea, Citizen.Not.

Your idea is absurd. The most absurd idea I've heard in a lonnnnnnngggg time.

Where do you come up with ideas like that?

Click to expand...

Society already looks down on people who get die in car accidents and weren't wearing seatbelts or die in a fire when their house had no smoke detectors, failing to utilize a common safety device such as a handgun to save your own life is not a virtue. Do you think it so different just because these folks were murdered by a misogynistic psychopath?

Click to expand...

Longwatch, did you have anything to do with locking this thread last night?

The answer to your question is obviously, yes. Your comparison is, to say the least is abhorrently strained.

Click to expand...

One I am not a moderator anymore, you persist in this fantasy that I still am.

Two, how is it different other than you say so? No where that I can find, is there a mandate for someone else to protect me and my life, that is my responsibility and why we have a right to bear arms in our defense.

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longwatch wrote:

HankT wrote:

Longwatch, did you have anything to do with locking this thread last night?

The answer to your question is obviously, yes. Your comparison is, to say the least is abhorrently strained.

Click to expand...

One I am not a moderator anymore, you persist in this fantasy that I still am.

Click to expand...

I didn't ask you if you were a moderator. I asked if you had anything to do with the locking. You are on recordas believing that conversation should be stifled on this forum. Youdeleted dozens of my posts in the past when you went on deletion sprees in the past. You do not believe in any kind ofintelligent discussion of any side that does not comport with your very limited point of view.

I PM'd Mike last night after the thread was locked, asking him if he had done it and 10 minutes later it was unlocked.

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Whatever, so I'll ask again why is it different?