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Thread: Free fishing??? for CPL!, ID! no RAS Required??

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    ((JSYK) just so you know) ive had my CPL and carried since 1985!! Could a cop walk up too you and say "ive heard that you CC, so i want to see your CPL".... you are carrying and you know it! he doesnt know your carryingfor sure cause he didnt see you get dressed! """are you required by law to show a CPL??""" if you are required to show,you give up your 5th A right,and in the process give up your 4th A right, and ultimatly give your 2nd A right, a jerk around cause hes gonna wanna see yourpiece, and ask futher questions, looking for something, or fishing for a RAS for further quiries, frisks, pat downs, or searches.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    I wonder the same with IWB holsters and how you see the loops on the belt but I'm pretty sure since it's a license you have to show it when you need it so if a cop sees you print or your shirt comes up to reveal your pistol and you go back to conceal then yes he has RAS to stop you.

    I have yet to see or hear of a cop ask random people for their CPL you just need to stop being so nervous and just carry the way you want.

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    2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
    ((JSYK) just so you know) ive had my CPL and carried since 1985!! Could a cop walk up too you and say "ive heard that you CC, so i want to see your CPL".... you are carrying and you know it! he doesnt know your carryingfor sure cause he didnt see you get dressed! """are you required by law to show a CPL??""" if you are required to show,you give up your 5th A right,and in the process give up your 4th A right, and ultimatly give your 2nd A right, a jerk around cause hes gonna wanna see yourpiece, and ask futher questions, looking for something, or fishing for a RAS for further quiries, frisks, pat downs, or searches.
    Holy crap, how many of these threads are you going to start? Do you always use two-four times the amount of punctuation required?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    "I wonder the same with IWB holsters and how you see the loops on the belt ..."

    I agree with your reply, Funk Trooper. Just a point of information: nowhere in the whole of RCW 9.41 is "holster" mentioned, nor is there any discussion of them. Kinda hard to discuss something without using the word for it! Source is a computer word search I did exploring 9.41.270; somebody was stopped by the Bellevue cops and told that IWB holsters were "concealed". I don't see where the Lt. who made this call has a legal leg to stand on because of the above.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/26173.html

    MD

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    J. H. C. stop with the exclamation points already. I thought we covered this. No shouting.

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    deanf, if youre not gonna reply to my query,why even reply at all? tawnos, im gonna keep starting threads and asking questions as long as i have questions to ask. i like to use extra puntuation because it adds a kind of inflection to the words. alittle more like people talk excitedly, instead of "just the facts". machoduck and funktrooper, you have already derailed the thread by changing the scenerio to obvious carry, thats a different question. i am not nervus about my CC , im trying to explore, verbally the bounds of my 5th, 4th, and 2nd A rights to just be left alone. a member said that "if you need your CPL, and a cop asks to see it, you have to show it". if that was the case, then any cop could just randomly ask for a CPL, thereby violating 3 rights in 1 fell swoop!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  7. #7
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    The internet has etiquette that should be followed just like in the real world. You are intentionally going against it to make your points and people find it annoying.

    Continue with your "what if" games.

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    Defender, are you always wrapped this tight? . There are better ways to as questions that essentially ranting and raving over the internet. Your questions are very hard to follow and come across as nearly incoherent, nearly paranoid rambling.

    To answer your question. If a LEO suspects you to be carrying a concealed weapon, he sees a bulge, the print of the grip, something that tips him or her off that you may be carrying; then yes, they can ask to see your CPL and since it is a state issued license you must produce it. That would be the RAS for the stop. The bottom of my WA CPL says the following:"... You must display it upon demand to any police officer..." I still fail to see how you are forfeiting any rights, esp. your 5th Amendment rights, once a LEO asks for your permit. It begs the question of when you are pulled over, is having to show your DL a rights violation? Please do some more research or the Amendments and the case law behind them before you call yourself a "defender" of said rights. Wikipedia is a good place to start.

    If you want to better explore your constitutional rights, enroll in a Constitutional Law or Constitutionally based Political Science course and look deeper into the RCWs and national case laws that correspond to them. There are many great books that go deeper into the law then we could ever go here. Best of luck to you in your research.

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Defender, you have some very bossy views for someone who has been a member for less than a month. While you're busy telling us how to communicate on the forum you just might be failing to see information that could be useful to you in some different situation. The thing you're complaining about, straying a little from the exact subject, is how a lot of things get learned. But they only get learned if you're flexible enough to go with the flow of the thread.

    MD

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    yes vandal, i am wrapped this tight! i really try to word my hypthetical questions carefully. ive checked it twice, and if you cant understand it, im sorry. then you go on to change the scene, just like others have done. i admit that a cop that sees a possible gun could have ras to ask, and you probably need to show your cpl. and now mochoduck is telling me i have bossy views, and ive only been here a month! im glad ive been here a month, ive learned tons about the law and our rights, and in learning more, i learned theres so much that i dont know, or dont understand! now im not telling anybody here how to communicate anywhere, straying from the subject of discussion should not include all these posts about yelling, punctuation, my tenure here or how wound up i might be. no one has yet even tried to address the 5,4,2 A question. ive read my Cpl lotsa times too and it pains me to think that a random CPL check doesnt sound like an easy way to get your name rank and serial number. i dont think the 2nd A is worth having if youre willing to let your 4th and 5th A rights get trampled.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  11. #11
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    so far 216 reads of this post "abunch of those are mine", only 6 replies from other than me, 5 individuals, and none talk about the topic. my big question!, so everybody else! please tell me what you are thinkin about the my hypothetical, illegal, search and seizure, 2,4,5 A rights violation, based on innuendo. could this happen? can you stop it? it true that driving is a privelage, and you need permission, and you have to show your permission slip, but only when the cop sees you driving!can a cop ask for your permission slip to carry a gun?, just cause hewonders if youmight be packing?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  12. #12
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    hey vandal, or any body? i read a decission about a young boy reported as amwag at the bus stop. cops found him, searched him, and charged/convicted him of illegal posession. in the reversal they said annomonous tips dont count fo RAS. anybody remeber this one? could you give the cite? i want it in my collection.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    What is your purpose for requesting this information?

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    defender, I think you're referring to Florida vs J.L. I'll start looking for a link but I think it's in one of the stickies.

    MD

    ETA: Google "Florida vs J.L." and the first hit (after low rate insurance) will be Wikipedia and the second will be the decision itself via the Cornell Law School.

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
    ((JSYK) just so you know) ive had my CPL and carried since 1985!! Could a cop walk up too you and say "ive heard that you CC, so i want to see your CPL".... you are carrying and you know it! he doesnt know your carryingfor sure cause he didnt see you get dressed! """are you required by law to show a CPL??""" if you are required to show,you give up your 5th A right,and in the process give up your 4th A right, and ultimatly give your 2nd A right, a jerk around cause hes gonna wanna see yourpiece, and ask futher questions, looking for something, or fishing for a RAS for further quiries, frisks, pat downs, or searches.
    OK let's look at your original question. Actually I think Funk Trooper answered it: you really do have to show it when carrying concealed. However you don't have to when not carrying. The scenario you describe is typical cop foolishness when they don't have enough information for RAS and want to fish around. If anyone starts out with, "I heard..." my response is almost always, "Where did you hear that?" If he's smart enough to start off with, "Are you armed?", my response would be, "Of course." Not quite Clarence Darrow but it does put the ball back in his court without showing weakness. Of course he can then rightfully ask for your CPL.

    The only way I see to avoid showing papers is to sterile carry, which means OC, of course. I don't know, did this answer your question? I get the feeling that there's a story behind your question.

    MD

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    Hypothetical questions can only go so far, go out and exercise your rights and if a cop asks you to show your cpl refuse and go from there. If your so in love with your rights why worry about following the law when you feel it violates those rights.

    All the topics of yours I've read all seem to wonder about RAS and when you have to show your CPL, why not ask a cop and see what he thinks RAS is, then ask a lawyer and see how he see things, asking the same thing with different wording over and over again on the same forum is probably not the best way to get good answers.

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    To answer the question -

    yes you're required to show it. it's written at the bottom of your CPL

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    thanx mochoduck, thats what i wanted to find. its nice to get help from the forum without dumb questions asking , why do i want to know?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  19. #19
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    Defender, being wound tight isn't a good thing. You don't want to come across as a tinfoil hat type of guy. That doesn't help any of the causes you are worried about. I know you are looking for some solid answers but I don't think you are going to get it, it is a very hypothetical question in a hypothetical situation.

    You are right our other rights are just as important, and it probably is illegal and violates the 4th for a cop to randomly ask you for your cpl. My experience this random experience just doesn't happen and I wouldn't worry too much about it. If it does happen ask the Police for RAS, see what his reply is it might surprise you. Just follow the laws to the best of your ability stand up for your rights politely but firmly.

    About the way you post, don't take it personally, when people complain, take it as constructive criticism. I had to learn to do the same, this forum is the first forum I have really belonged to and posted to and I had to learn and still learning many of the online "etiquette" requirements. It makes it easier for people to understand and more willing to read what you post.


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    2, 4, 5 A defender:

    search search search

    then

    read read read.

    You should spend weeks reading here before you start asking things. It's all already been asked and answered. Many people have done a lot of actual work to find the answers to these questions. Show them a little respect and spend some time quietly reading to yourself.

    A thousand light bulbs will go off over your head, slowly, one by one, and then the truth will be illuminated to you with a blinding light.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    thanx suddenvally gunner, and machoduck, florida v j.l. helps to rebuff a baseless request to fish for a cpl. "where did you hear that?" is a good rejoiner to avoid answering. i think if ask outa the blue "are you armed?" i would be alright to to say nothing or none of your buziness unless your have RAS to question me. by the way, i studied this forum for over a month before joining, i read wash, ore, ida, calif,alaska, nevada and DC. ive read many cases that swirll around our 2,4,5A rights most ive bookmarked or printed out but i didnt do that for florida v j.l., i knew i remembered the gist of the case but couldnt figure a way to look it up. still learning this computor stuff.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Read this a time or two and think it over carefully. Then read it again s l o w l y. Print it out and go over it again with a yellow highliter. Things suddenly become a little more clear.

    Nonconsensual stops of open carriers to demand identification or check gun serial numbers are unlawful in Washington.

    A mere report of a man with a gun is not grounds for a Terry stop. Florida v.J.L. 1.,529U.S. 266 (2000). Americans cannot be required to carry and produce identification credentials on demand to the police. Kolander v. Lawson,461 U.S. 352 (1983). Washington does not have a "stop and ID statute, However, even where a state enacts a "stop and ID" statute, stop must be limited to situations where RAS exists of a crime, and further, Stop subject's statement of his name satisfies the ID requirement as Kolander, discussed supra, has not been overruled. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004). Even where a state has established a duty to carry a license for some activity, absent RAS for the stop, the license cannot be demanded. State v. Peters, 2008 WL2185754 (Wis. App. I Dist. (2008) (driver of vehicle has no duty to produce driver's license absent RAS) (citing Hiibel). Law enforcement officers seizing persons for refusal to show identification are "not entitled to dismissal of...[42 USC 1983 claims] based on qualified immunity." Stufflebeam v. Harris, 521 F.3d 884, 889 (8thCir. 2008)

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    thanx trigger dr, lotsa cites to dig into. kolander, peters and stufflebeam are new to me, i will be studying all night! also look forward to burgers at crazy eric with you some time.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Thank you, Trigger Dr. You've compiled a huge amount of info all in one spot. That is just simply outstanding.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I copied that post to my desktop for quick reference.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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