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Thread: CWP Default Permits - I'm Right, and the State Can't Admit It Without Causing a Firestorm

  1. #1
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    Over at floridaconcealedcarry.com, Henry finally received an answer to the letter he sent regarding the default permit approval of which I first informed that forum. Henry tried to color the letter to allow the State easy answers, but the State cannot even answer his easy questions without 1) lying or 2) completely admitting my argument.

    The State is backed into a corner on this. Look for some sleazy State Rep. to try to exempt CWPs from 120.60.

    Still, props to Henry for asking the question and for posting the State's letter tacitly admitting my argument.







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    Here's Henry's letter to DOACS. It's telling that DOACS responded with a senior attorney who didn't want to swing at any of these softballs.

    ************

    Here is the letter I am sending to DACS tomorrow. Approved by the Forum Administrator. The format might be a bit out of whack in this post but looks ok on paper.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    April 23, 2009

    Henry XXXXXXX
    XXXXXXX
    Fountain, Florida

    Richard Tritschler
    Office of the General Counsel
    Dept. of Agriculture and Consumer Services
    The Capitol
    Tallahassee, FL 32399-0800

    RE: Interpretation of Dept. Regulations pertaining to Chapter 120, permitting standards and time frames

    Dear Mr. Tritschler:

    I am requesting an interpretation of the Chapter 120, Administrative Procedures Act as it pertains to permitting time frames and specifically default permits. I worked for the FL Dept. of Environmental Protection (DEP) for 18 years in which time I not only processed permits but supervised and managed permitting and compliance throughout my tenure with the Agency. As I am sure you are aware Chapter 120 pertains to all permits and licenses issued by the State of Florida regardless of which agency is authorized to issue such license or permit.

    I am specifically interested in the permitting procedures as they pertain to Chapter 120 for “Concealed Weapons and Firearms License” (CWFL) processed by the Dept. of Agriculture and Consumer Services (DACS). I am a member of an online forum that caters to holders of Florida CWFL and anyone wanting to acquire a CWFL or interested in such. Our membership is nationwide and not necessarily limited to Florida residents. This forum is called the Florida Concealed Carry (FCC) and can be found on line at www.floridaconcealedcarry.com. I am preparing this letter with their approval and they have read and edited to maintain consistency with the forum rules, guidelines and philosophy.

    A thread has been posted on the FCC website which expresses concerns from members about an individual who claims to have received a CWFL by default from DACS and is encouraging members of FCC and other forums of similar topic to exercise their right under Chapter 120 to a default CWFL. This individual claims to have notified DACS in writing that he is exercising his right to a default permit and is carrying without having a CWFL physically in his possession. You can see this thread and comments here http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...ead.php?t=2725

    The forum Administrator and Moderators are diligent in giving their members the most correct information possible. FCC is not just a “club” we are a forum that makes it its mission to provide a means for our members to obtain information and participate in discussions to educate and support other members with problems, questions or in need of information. The last thing we want is for our members to be misinformed and find themselves in violation of the law in any way. We understand how serious the right to carry concealed is. We encourage all our members to act responsibly and in accordance with all State and Federal regulations.

    I have tried to explain the process of obtaining a permit by default to the members in the thread. However, even though I am certain that the criteria for defaulting under Chapter 120 is the same no matter which permitting Agency is involved, we all feel that the members would be better served if we acquire an interpretation from DACS directly. For this reason I will ask specific questions that hopefully will lead us to the correct answers.

    • Is the CWFL exempt from Chapter 120?
    • Does the Agency have specific regulations pertaining to permits and permitting process in authorized Florida Administrative Codes (FAC) for DACS?
    • Does the Agency have 30 days to request additional information in order to complete the application?
    • Will the application remain incomplete until all information requested is received and the application noted as complete?
    • Does the CWFL have to be issued 90 days from date of receipt of a complete application or date in which additional information is received making the application complete?
    • Does Chapter 120 require written notification to the Agency that they are in default of the CWFL?
    • Is the applicant allowed to carry a concealed weapon after notifying the agency without having received confirmation of the default by the Agency and without a CWFL physically in his possession?
    • Will DACS issue a CWFL by default if the application package is not complete or missing information?
    • Will DACS issue a CWFL by default if the applicant is not qualified to obtain a CWFL and the Agency would have denied issuance of the CWFL in the first place?
    • Can you please explain the procedure to obtain a CWFL by default from DACS?

    It is my hope that you and your staff will take the time to address this request and provide our members with authoritative and legally sound information. We are aware that budget and staffing constraints are putting a tremendous strain on permit processing for the Agency. It is in everyone’s interest to have a well educated regulated community that will follow the regulations and procedures for obtaining their permits and not be mislead by misinformation obtained though websites and online forums. The last thing the Agency needs at this time is an avalanche of requests for default CWFL without basis and Florida residents illegally carrying concealed because of erroneous information they received in a forum.

    If you have any questions or need additional information please feel free to email me at henryher@hughes.net or call my cell phone (850) XXX-XXXX.

    Sincerely,



    Henry HXXXXX
    On behalf of Florida Conceal Carry
    www.floridaconcealcarry.com

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    I feel you and understand your take, but it's Florida. You're trying to polish a ****...

    Florida is a trash state, it has gone RAPIDLY downhill in the last 4 years, and any decent human being is scrambling to get the hell out of it.

    I know I sure as hell am. It's as bad as IL, NY, or CA, and still dropping. By the end of the year, it could very well be the worst place in the whole country.

    What I gather from the Case Law surrounding the topic, is that Florida is NOT actually a 'shall issue' state. While the premise of the 'nothing disqualifies you, you get it' does exist, the 90 day time frame is completely ignored. They can simply not issue the license forever with no rhyme or reason and there is nothing you can do about it but waste hundreds of thousands of dollars on court bureaucracy.

    I got mine inside of 6 weeks. But if someone who knows someone who wants a favor of making life hard for someone they don't like, etc... The typical way things are done in this state, you'll never get the permit.

    Just leave, this place sucks. I don't know anyone in this state who is even worth half their weight is manure.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    ixtow wrote:
    Florida is a trash state, it has gone RAPIDLY downhill in the last 4 years, and any decent human being is scrambling to get the hell out of it.

    I know I sure as hell am. It's as bad as IL, NY, or CA, and still dropping. By the end of the year, it could very well be the worst place in the whole country.
    It feels like a place divided between three major camps: East Coast scum with their rude manners and grating accents, really belligerent mean and nasty rednecks who have a grudge against everything, and the Latin Americans, who are nice enough but make Florida feel like another country.

    I will tell you this: Florida is not America. It neither feels nor acts anything like America.

  5. #5
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    smoking & ix - Feel free to leave. You'll not be missed, I promise.

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    Very nice letter, but what formatting..........
    Not everyone has a 32" wide screen monitor.

    Only thing missing is any reference to us NR default holders.
    Maybe a reciprocity question about the default permits.
    Now that is a real big headache, does the other state understand
    you don't need that little piece of paper. After all reciprocity is
    they except the other states as there own. I never heard of
    a partial reciprocity. Now TN does get around this with AL
    by honoring our permit but not recognizing it. What a shock that
    was to me when I looked on their web site and we aren't on it.
    But my state says i'm good to go.
    Sort of like an AG letter, not worth the toilet paper it is written on
    if you get a local da who doesn't like that you pointed out
    Al Gores electric bill doesn't jive with his speeches.

    You must have real bad judges, I have never seen so many break lights
    when crossing the border into FL.








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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    brboyer wrote:
    smoking & ix - Feel free to leave. You'll not be missed, I promise.
    Obviously, the feeling is mutual... Cute how you try to be all offensive to people who have already reached the conclusion... About as stupid as "I meant to do that."
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Hey, I won't miss you two either.

    I have lived here since 1952 and seen all kinds of influx of undesireables. But, Florida is a great place to live if you avoid metro Orlando and other high density areas. And it's not the beaches, it is in the interior of FL where it gets really good. The native people of FL are great. The others can be avoided. Maybe THEY will get sick of it and move... BTW, where did you migrate from? Just curious.

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    brboyer wrote:
    smoking & ix - Feel free to leave. You'll not be missed, I promise.
    Thank You.. if you two butt buddies don't like it GTFO

    I am a third generation native Floridian.. this is a great place place to live for alot of reasons, unfort all you people that migrated here from NY/NY or where the *** ever are the ones ruining it..

    I have a residence in S Calif, the La Jolla area to be exact.. I can say Fl beats Calif hands down..

    The fact that Fl has no state income tax alone is great thing for us..not to mention our libral gun laws..

    You wont be missed.. maybe move to IL , you will be happy there..

  10. #10
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    Just leave, this place sucks. I don't know anyone in this state who is even worth half their weight is manure.
    You hate it that much, brighten the place up a bit and leave.

    You want a real cesspool? Come over here to louisiana for awhile. You'll be screaming to be let back into Florida.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    Did I miss his response to the questions he was asked? I know it's in there somewhere right? LOL!

    FL is a shall issue state and does have to comply with the APA under Chapter 120. All state agencies do - I have fought this battle in the courts and won. They must issue the license after 90 days regardless and then they can suspend or revoke it later. That's the law in FL. Also, if you don't get your license, you can file a complaint with an administrative florida judge who oversees and hears complaints against Chapter 120 APA violations. That surely will get their attention to issue your license and I believe it's free to file the complaint and request a hearing.

    Finally, this non responsive letter doesn't surprise me at all. I've asked for clarifications as well from them int he past and received nothing but scrap paper I could use as kindling for my fireplace.

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    This is a moot point now. See below.....

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
    October 5, 2009

    DO NOT REPLY DIRECTLY TO THIS EMAIL.
    DIRECT ALL INQUIRIES TO:
    Terence McElroy
    mailto:mcelrot@doacs.state.fl.us
    (850) 488-3022

    BRONSON ANNOUNCES PROGRAM TO EXPEDITE CONCEALED WEAPON LICENSE APPLICATION PROCESS

    TALLAHASSEE -- Florida Agriculture and Consumer Services Commissioner Charles H. Bronson today announced that qualified individuals wishing to expedite the turnaround time in obtaining a concealed weapon license can now visit any of the Division of Licensing's eight regional offices to apply for a license.

    In an effort to expedite the process and relieve the congestion caused by an unprecedented surge of concealed weapon license applications mailed to the department's headquarters in Tallahassee, the regional offices have been modified to serve as one-stop application intake facilities.

    The regional offices, whose locations can be found at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/staff/list.html, are asking applicants to make an appointment before coming in.

    When the appointment takes place, staff members will take the applicant's photograph and fingerprints, and notarize the application after it has been reviewed for completeness. It will then be sent to Tallahassee for processing. The seven-year license costs $117, which includes the licensing fee, fingerprinting and costs for a Florida Department of Law Enforcement criminal background check.

    Bronson estimates that applicants who apply in person can expect to receive their licenses in two to three weeks.

    Applicants can continue to apply for or renew their concealed weapon licenses by mail as they have always done, although the backlog in applications can mean a two to three month wait in receiving it.

    Residents can review the basic eligibility requirements to receive a license by visiting the Division of Licensing's webpage at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/eligible.html.

    Individuals who are interested in obtaining a license by visiting a regional office or who want to learn more about the service can view a frequently asked question page at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...ional_faq.html.

    -30-

    DO NOT REPLY DIRECTLY TO THIS EMAIL.
    DIRECT ALL INQUIRIES TO:
    Terence McElroy
    mailto:mcelrot@doacs.state.fl.us
    (850) 488-3022


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    I will believe it when I see it. I was just in the regional office a few days ago and I didn't see any changes to the methodology of how the office operated. Sounds like SMOKE and MIRRORS, yet again. The application is still processed in Tallahassee. It still has to go through the normal channels. So they take your picture there, fingerprint you there and notarize the docs there? Again, did something change that has not been done in the past? These are all items that don't slow down the process. Yes Live Scaning you makes turnaround on the fingerprints faster BUT if the division is still backlogged, understaffed and overworked a HUMAN still has to process the completion of the application. I would love to see someone do this "new process" and get their license in the 2-3 weeks that are being promised.

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    MrRadioActive wrote:
    I will believe it when I see it.

    Try looking here: Several confirmed cases of 5 days to the door give or take a few....

    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...ead.php?t=6245

    and this one..

    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...ead.php?t=5924

    and this one..

    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...ead.php?t=5595

    Here's another..

    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...ead.php?t=6075

    It's been in action for a short while now, but,quietly spread by word of mouth to work out any "bugs".

    Inormally have just as muchdoubt about these things, but, this one seems to be working.

    Again, this default crap is moot.



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    MrRadioActive wrote:
    I would love to see someone do this "new process" and get their license in the 2-3 weeks that are being promised.
    My boss got his in 7 calendar days. There's also some stories about it on jaxshooting.com if you need more proof. Florida Shooters Network has a ton of posts from people who got theirs in 1-2 weeks.



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    Basically they are doing a fast NCIC records check (same as when you buy a gun) and if you are clean with no felonies, you're golden

    REALIZE...that if they find something later, like you were a wifebeater/child molesterfrom another state/long time ago/etc...they may very well PULL your permit. Soit pays not to be a scumbag.

    Former Military personnel do NOT have to take the Course, but I personally suggest it...there are things you forget over time, and it's good to take a refresher now & again



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