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Thread: WTAQ: Green Bay Open Carry Picnic Goes Forward

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    http://w20.wtaq.com/news/2009/aug/04/green-bay-open-carry-picnic-goes-forward/


    Green Bay Open Carry Picnic Goes ForwardPublished on August 4, 2009[/i] (17 hours, 3 minutes ago)[/i]


    WTAQ has learned a group will organize an open carry picnic in Green Bay this weekend. Organizers had worked with city officials on being recognized, but officials are asking the group for both a permit and a $1 million insurance policy. Ed Foral says the organizers aren't going for it. Officials biggest concern about the event at Bay Beach Saturday is panic from other beach-goers who will either call 911 or leave over feeling unsafe. Foral indicates the picnic will go on and the people carrying pistols will do so respectively.

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    Mike wrote:
    Officials biggest concern about the event at Bay Beach Saturday is panic from other beach-goers who will either call 911 or leave over feeling unsafe. Foral indicates the picnic will go on and the people carrying pistols will do so respectively.
    This event is no longer at Bay Beach from what I understand. It is now at Fritsch Park.

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Officials biggest concern about the event at Bay Beach Saturday is panic from other beach-goers who will either call 911 or leave over feeling unsafe. Foral indicates the picnic will go on and the people carrying pistols will do so respectively.
    This event is no longer at Bay Beach from what I understand. It is now at Fritsch Park.
    Yes, that is the new location. It was done to avoid "panic" & unnessesary headaches.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Would they ask for permits and insurance policies if a bunch of pony-tailed, tattooed bikers were to cook up some burgers? That may cause panic among some sheeple too.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    Would they ask for permits and insurance policies if a bunch of pony-tailed, tattooed bikers were to cook up some burgers? That may cause panic among some sheeple too.
    How did you know I have tat's , no pony tail as I am bald.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Nutczak wrote:
    Would they ask for permits and insurance policies if a bunch of pony-tailed, tattooed bikers were to cook up some burgers? That may cause panic among some sheeple too.
    If they contacted the media, made open invitations to anyone that reads about it to atttend and were handing out pamphlets, I would think yes

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    So how much is the 1 million dollar insurance policy and who is paying for it?

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    So how much is the 1 million dollar insurance policy and who is paying for it?
    Since we are moving to a less crowded location, the city agreed to drop the insurance requirement and use a "hold harmless"clauseinstead. The permit and all associated paperwork should be finalized tomorrow.

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    Now, let me understand this...

    We need a permit to FREELY ASSOCIATE IN A PUBLIC LOCATION!!!!

    And here I thought we had a BILL OF RIGHTS!!!!!

    This is NOTHING BUT BS from some power hungry greedy bureaucrats.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    Now, let me understand this...

    We need a permit to FREELY ASSOCIATE IN A PUBLIC LOCATION!!!!

    And here I thought we had a BILL OF RIGHTS!!!!!

    This is NOTHING BUT BS from some power hungry greedy bureaucrats.
    Sometimes, park space is hard to find in Summer. It is nice to set up the date, and have a spot saved for you when you get to the place...

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    JoeSparky wrote:
    Now, let me understand this...
    We need a permit to FREELY ASSOCIATE IN A PUBLIC LOCATION!!!!
    And here I thought we had a BILL OF RIGHTS!!!!!
    This is NOTHING BUT BS from some power hungry greedy bureaucrats.
    Here's the thing... you had better have your ducks in a row if you are going to file a suit regarding civil liberties. Please provide me examples where the Supreme Court has ruled on a municipality's permit system for peaceable assembly where they did not discriminate against a group based on their message being unpopular orthe potential to incite a strong reaction. The fact that we were not denied a permit helps keep them out of trouble. Our most legitimate point of contention is our position that the picnic does not fit the City Code definition of a Special Event.

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    Everything worked out here, as much as i despise the fact the we needed a permit, at least they dropped the need for insurance. Now, we are free and clear to navigate. Picnic is gonna be fun, food,music, fun.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Here's the thing... you had better have your ducks in a row if you are going to file a suit regarding civil liberties. Please provide me examples where the Supreme Court has ruled on a municipality's permit system for peaceable assembly where they did not discriminate against a group based on their message being unpopular orthe potential to incite a strong reaction. The fact that we were not denied a permit helps keep them out of trouble. Our most legitimate point of contention is our position that the picnic does not fit the City Code definition of a Special Event.
    Not sure what you are trying to say above.

    Viewpoint discrimination is always unconstitutional. National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977) (holding that an injunction against nazi group planning to march with swastikas down American street in town where jews lived is a final order because it implicated First Amendment rights and must have expedited appeal procedures available) stands generally for the proposition that permits to assemble cannot be denied based upon the potential effect of extreme speech upon surrounding populations. It was actually the Illinois Supreme Court which acted to quash the injunction and the syllabus of that court opinions summarizesas follows:

    The Cook County Circuit Court, Joseph M. Wosik, J., enjoined defendant members of the National Socialist Party of America from conducting demonstrations in the village of Skokie, Illinois. The Illinois Appellate Court denied application for stay pending appeal and the Illinois Supreme Court denied petition for stay. Application for stay was treated as a petition for certiorari and the United States Supreme Court, 432 U.S. 43, 97 S.Ct. 2205, 53 L.Ed.2d 96, reversed and remanded for further proceeding. On remand, the Appellate Court, First District, 51 Ill.App.3d 9 Ill.Dec. 90, 366 N.E.2d 347, held that the village had not borne its heavy burden of overcoming the presumptively illegal prior restraint of defendants except with respect to the wearing of swastika on or off the person during demonstration. Party's petition for leave to appeal was allowed and the Supreme Court held that the use of the swastika is a symbolic form of free speech entitled to First Amendment protections and it cannot be enjoined under “fighting-words” exception to free speech, nor can anticipation of a hostile audience justify prior restraint.

    As you know, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin trial courts have recently held or the jury found that open carry is not disorderly conduct, even if worn as a form of expressive conduct in the vicinity of a presidential candidate's rally site. Assembly cannot legallybe denied just because people might react to you or your speech is objectionable.

    In Skokie, at issue was a small demonstration planned to protest a requirement for the group to have INSURANCE to get a permit for a larger assembly in a park:

    As the IL S. Ct. stated: “Defendants moved to dismiss the complaint. In an affidavit attached to defendants' motion to dismiss, defendant Frank Collin, who testified that he was “party leader,” stated that on or about March 20, 1977, he sent officials of the plaintiff village a letter stating that the party members and supporters would hold a peaceable, public assembly in the village on May 1, 1977, to protest the Skokie Park District's requirement that the party procure $350,000 of insurance prior to the party's use of the Skokie public parks for public assemblies. The demonstration was to begin at 3 p. m., last 20 to 30 minutes, and consist of 30 to 50 demonstrators marching in single file, back and forth, in front of the village hall. The marchers were to wear uniforms which include a swastika emblem or armband. They were to carry a party banner containing a swastika emblem and signs containing such statements as “White Free Speech,” “Free Speech for the White Man,” and “Free Speech for White America.” The demonstrators would not distribute handbills, make any derogatory statements directed to any ethnic or religious group, or obstruct traffic. They would cooperate with any reasonable police instructions or requests.”

    NOTE: Apparently insurance was not required by local ordinance for any group, but a requirement being imposed on the nazi group.

    Generally, parks, street, and sidewalks are public fora for a where folks can assemble and make speeches etc. without government interference, however, permits for such assemblies can be constitutional under the doctrine of time, place, and manner regulations. Again, to be constitutional, such regulations (including any insurance requirement) must never be rooted in viewpoint of the group to assemble or to the view of their speech. Further, the regulations must pass a high burden under strict scrutiny – if the regulation is challenged, the Defendant (government) must show that the regulations are required to accomplish a compelling governmental interest, and that the regulations are both narrowly tailored[/b] to achieve that interest and that the regulations are the least restrictive means to do so. That’s why normally permits are NOT needed to assemble unless they are going to be really big, require closure of a street, etc.

    In the case at hand, the Green Bay Picnic, there appears to have been no injunction sought by the City against the group, hence raising the question as to why anyone was contacting the city and entering into negotiations over a non-issue; the picnic was not going to violate the city ordinance even as unconstitutionally vague as it is written, and frankly all legal hell would have broken loose on the City had they ticketed families assembling at a small picnic site just because a few press people showed up or onlookers became curious. Besides violating the don’t ask don’t tell rule, and the never ask permission rule, this conduct by one or more persons appears to be outright meddlesome, even if well meaning. If you ask them, they will come!

    Hopefully face to face meet ups occurs at the picnic site and folks can meet and all agree not to act this way ever again – this is a very bad precedent in agreeing to get a permit where none is needed even on the face of the statute – other cities are going to copy this under monkey see monkey do doctrine making it harder for everyone.

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    Mike ,

    Would you break it down to simpler Hemingwayterms for us slower types ?

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    R a Z o R wrote:
    Mike ,

    Would you break it down to simpler Hemingwayterms for us slower types ?
    Yes, please...i am not a lawyer..
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Mike wrote:
    permits for such assemblies can be constitutional under the doctrine of time, place, and manner regulations.
    [/quote]
    This is what I was saying. Any challengeof the need to have a permit should be based on a challenge that the picnic meets the City Code definition of a Special Event. It IS customary for the city to require insurance of most all Special Events (even the ones held by cute charites which pull at your heart strings).



    Glock34 wrote:
    Everything worked out here, as much as i despise the fact the we needed a permit, at least they dropped the need for insurance. Now, we are free and clear to navigate. Picnic is gonna be fun, food,music, fun.
    Mike is disputing that we "needed" to have a permit. I agree that it is debatable but I also believe that if it were not for the fact that we workedWITH the city that the picnic would not be as successful as I expect it to be. We would have never addressed the issue of over crowding at Bay Beach on that date and would would not have ended up at Ted Fritsch park which has MUCH more room for us especially since we were able to rent the shelter. We are assured of more positive media coverage and will be better received by the Green Bay police department.

    The decision to get a permit is absolutely NOT binding nor precedent setting for future picnics where we will NOT apply for a permit and will NOT give such advance notice. This picnic will set the groundwork for many more in the future and will be our way to prove that it absolutely is not disruptive of other groups using the park at the same time. We will have positive media coverage as just one of many things supportingthis truth.





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    Interceptor, your spot on here, I very much so tend to agree with you. and VERY good job with all the interviews. They actually had contacted me a few days ago on this, but I declined to be the PR guy, I told them to contact you. A very wise choice, I might add.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    I can see requiring a reservation for a busy Pavillion ect but a PERMIT for a peaceful assembly of individuals for a PICNIC and a $1,000,000 Liability policy is BS....

    And you shouldn't have had to move it to a different location to avoid the above!



    That is BS!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    I can see requiring a reservation for a busy Pavillion ect but a PERMIT for a peaceful assembly of individuals for a PICNIC and a $1,000,000 Liability policy is BS....

    And you shouldn't have had to move it to a different location to avoid the above!



    That is BS!
    Maybe so, but, it is what it is...
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Try to get the word out on the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/wi1848oc/petition.htmlto picnicgoers and press - we need to get that thing in the news!

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