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Thread: Utah County Parks

  1. #1
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    I just got an email from County Commissioner Steve White:

    Richard,

    We will change the signs at the parks to 'no shooting'.

    Steve

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    We'll have to see if they follow through with it-lot of signs to be changed.



  3. #3
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    I'm sure it will take some time, but I also trust that it will happen.

    I have known Steve White for many years and he has always been straight with me.

  4. #4
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Thank you rpyne! :celebrate Good job.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Very well done thanks for your hard work and dedication.






    Zach
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  6. #6
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    rpyne wrote:
    I'm sure it will take some time, but I also trust that it will happen.

    I have known Steve White for many years and he has always been straight with me.
    Congrats. And good work.

    If you care to save some the gov/taxpayer some money, you might let him know that South Jordan made a similar change using some high quality stickers that modified existing signs. Has to be tons cheaper than replacing signs altogether. Or maybe that is SOP for these things and every city/county plans on it anyway.

    charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  7. #7
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    I just got an update from Commissioner White:

    Richard,
    This will be the new wording on our signs. "Non archery or discharge of firearms" for our parks areas.
    Steve

    >>> Don Nay 8/10/2009 10:00 AM >>>
    Commissioner,
    Attached is a photo of one of the signs currently posted in the parks. Per conversation you and I had with Cort Griffin this morning, we will change the first line of these signs to read "No archery or discharge of firearms." We will also make corresponding changes to the information posted on the County web site.
    Please let me know if anything else needs to be done concerning this issue. Thanks,

    Don Nay
    Associate Director
    Utah County Public Works Department
    2855 South State Street, Provo, UT 84606
    801-851-8602 office
    801-343-8602 fax
    don.ucpw@utah.gov


    >>> Steve White 8/8/2009 10:45 AM >>>
    Richard,
    Please replace all signs in Utah County parks eliminating the "No firearms" to "no shooting". Our signs violate UCA 53-5a-101(5). We discussed this in a closed meeting with the Sheriff and attorneys and seek to comply with State Statute.
    Steve White
    Commissioner
    Utah County

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    Good work. Thanks for your efforts.

    It looks like the website has been updated!



  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I'm glad to see that Utah County is being proactive about this issue, but the signs will still be unlawful if changed as planned.

    Only cities and towns may regulate the discharge of firearms. Counties have not been authorized to prevent shooting.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    I'm glad to see that Utah County is being proactive about this issue, but the signs will still be unlawful if changed as planned.

    Only cities and towns may regulate the discharge of firearms. Counties have not been authorized to prevent shooting.
    In the vast majority of cases, shooting would still be prohibited in the County Parks under 76-10-508(1)(vii)(A), not to mention being simply foolish because of terrain and the likely proximity of other people.

    76-10-508. Discharge of firearm from a vehicle, near a highway, or in direction of any person, building, or vehicle -- Penalties.
    (1) (a) A person may not discharge any kind of dangerous weapon or firearm:
    (i) from an automobile or other vehicle;
    (ii) from, upon, or across any highway;
    (iii) at any road signs placed upon any highways of the state;
    (iv) at any communications equipment or property of public utilities including facilities, lines, poles, or devices of transmission or distribution;
    (v) at railroad equipment or facilities including any sign or signal;
    (vi) within Utah State Park buildings, designated camp or picnic sites, overlooks, golf courses, boat ramps, and developed beaches; or
    (vii) without written permission to discharge the dangerous weapon from the owner or person in charge of the property within 600 feet of:
    (A) a house, dwelling, or any other building; or
    (B) any structure in which a domestic animal is kept or fed, including a barn, poultry yard, corral, feeding pen, or stockyard.
    (b) It is a defense to any charge for violating this section that the person being accused had actual permission of the owner or person in charge of the property at the time in question.
    (2) A violation of any provision of Subsection (1) is a class B misdemeanor.
    (3) In addition to any other penalties, the court shall:
    (a) notify the Driver License Division of the conviction for purposes of any revocation, denial, suspension, or disqualification of a driver license under Subsection 53-3-220(1)(a)(xi); and
    (b) specify in court at the time of sentencing the length of the revocation under Subsection 53-3-225(1)(c).
    (4) This section does not apply to a person who:
    (a) discharges any kind of firearm when that person is in lawful defense of self or others;
    (b) is performing official duties as provided in Sections 23-20-1.5 and 76-10-523 and as otherwise provided by law; or
    (c) discharges a dangerous weapon or firearm from an automobile or other vehicle, if:
    (i) the discharge occurs at a firing range or training ground;
    (ii) at no time after the discharge does the projectile that is discharged cross over or stop at a location other than within the boundaries of the firing range or training ground described in Subsection (4)(c)(i);
    (iii) the discharge is made as practice or training for a lawful purpose;
    (iv) the discharge and the location, time, and manner of the discharge are approved by the owner or operator of the firing range or training ground prior to the discharge; and
    (v) the discharge is not made in violation of Subsection (1).
    As I explained in a PM to a user on another forum, We have a balancing act to deal with here. Our Sheriff is generally friendly to the RKBA as is the County Commission (at least Steve White who I have known personally for many years), but the County Attorney and the Public Works Director, though not blatantly anti, are not nearly as friendly. With the very rapid (or even rabid) growth that has been going on in Utah County the last five or so years, the County has gotten a lot of pressure to greatly restrict or even eliminate shooting in the County. Many of the places we used to go shoot on the west side of Utah Lake are now within fast growing cities. The Range Protection Act we got a few years ago was in no small part because of the support of the Utah County Commission and the Utah County delegation to the State Legislature as a way to bypass some of that pressure and keep the ranges open, particularly the Hobble Creek Range where developers were building houses almost right up to the range.

    One of the lessons I have learned from many years of political involvement is that it is amazing what you can do if you do it a nibble at a time. Twenty-five years ago, it was almost impossible to carry a firearm, openly or concealed, in any populated area of Utah. Now we have some of the most firearms friendly laws in the nation. While there were a few "big steps" that included major political battles and cost large amounts of political capital, most of it has been by taking small bites at a time and avoiding major confrontations. This is the same way that the antis have taken away our rights over the years, it is time we learn to use their own tactics to regain our rights. If we choose our battles carefully, we can make great improvements.

    The (now) "no discharge" restriction in Utah County parks is almost a non-issue since such a restriction would already exist under state law for virtually all of the affected area. So for now at least, I do believe we are better to leave things as they are with Utah County at least until after the next legislative session.

    I am friends with both Commissioner Steve White and with Sheriff Jim Tracey. I will continue to work on and with them to keep things improving.

  11. #11
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    rpyne wrote:
    In the vast majority of cases, shooting would still be prohibited in the County Parks under 76-10-508(1)(vii)(A), not to mention being simply foolish because of terrain and the likely proximity of other people.
    That still does not give them the right to regulate it. Besides, if the sign doesn't prohibit shooting, do you honestly think people will start shooting in these parks?

    The whole point of them being asked to fix the wording on the signs is to comply with State law. If they change it to to something else that they have no authority to regulate, then they are still non-compliant.

    This is something that is easier to repair before the signs are ever changed.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  12. #12
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    That still does not give them the right to regulate it. Besides, if the sign doesn't prohibit shooting, do you honestly think people will start shooting in these parks?

    The whole point of them being asked to fix the wording on the signs is to comply with State law. If they change it to to something else that they have no authority to regulate, then they are still non-compliant.

    This is something that is easier to repair before the signs are ever changed.
    It could be argued that posting a sign is not regulating shooting but simply making people aware that state law prohibits shooting.

    do you honestly think people will start shooting in these parks?
    Unfortunately, yes. The total stupidity of the masses never ceases to amaze me. There are far too many people out there that will shoot at anything that doesn't move (or that does move) without any regard for what they have for a backstop or where there may be people in the line of fire. As an RSO at the Provo Gun Range, it amazes me at how many people will shoot at anything and everything other than the targets on the range. Every time I go to the range I find new bullet holes in the signs, equipment and buildings. The sign out at the road gets shot up so bad that it has to be replaced every year. On more than one occasion, I have had bullets whiz over my head while I was at the range from idiots up on the mountain shooting down toward the range. So, yes, I do expect that if the signs didn't say something about it there would be some (more) idiots out there start shooting up the parks.

    Don't get me wrong, I would like all restriction removed, but I also understand the balancing act that the County has with their responsibility for public safety on County property.

    Edit: spelling

  13. #13
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Thank you
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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