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Thread: Legal ownership question

  1. #1
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    Okay, so while I'm still the FNG around here, I've got an interesting scenario for you all. My wife was honorably discharged from the military but at the same time she got railroaded. On her DD214, at the bottom it says "personality disorder". This was a single doctor's opinion @ Landstuhl and she has never been certified "crazy" nor been diagnosed with anything by mental health professionals. I trust her with my life and have no qualms about her around firearms. Will this bar her from being able to apply for a CCW and/or firearm ownership? I know to take your opinions at face value, I was just curious from my reading up on the laws and codes.



    edit: by face value, I mean that only a couple of you are lawyers but I have seen multiple posts where people have said "here's our opinion but investigate to make sure ymmv". A lot of you are obviously very good with the law books.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    IANAL, but this statute may help....I would think that if she has a DD-214, she could apply for her CHP. If she had a "problem", would they have given her a 214? I'm not sure...



    18.2-308.1:3. Purchase, possession or transportation of firearm by persons involuntarily admitted or ordered to outpatient treatment; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment pursuant to § 19.2-169.2, involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment as the result of a commitment hearing pursuant to Article 5 (§ 37.2-814 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 37.2, or who was the subject of a temporary detention order pursuant to § 37.2-809 and subsequently agreed to voluntary admission pursuant to § 37.2-805 to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    B. Any person prohibited from purchasing, possessing or transporting firearms under this section may, at any time following his release from involuntary admission to a facility, his release from an order of mandatory outpatient treatment, or his release from voluntary admission pursuant to § 37.2-805 following the issuance of a temporary detention order, petition the general district court in the city or county in which he resides to restore his right to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. If the court determines that the circumstances regarding the disabilities referred to in subsection A and the person's criminal history, treatment record, and reputation are such that the person will not likely act in a manner dangerous to public safety and that granting the relief would not be contrary to the public interest, the court shall grant the petition. Any person denied relief by the general district court may petition the circuit court for a de novo review of the denial. Upon a grant of relief in any court, the court shall enter a written order granting the petition, in which event the provisions of subsection A shall no longer apply. The clerk of court shall certify and forward forthwith to the Central Criminal Records Exchange, on a form provided by the Exchange, a copy of any such order.

    (1994, c. 907; 2004, c. 995; 2008, cc. 751, 788.)
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    I can't speak from experience since all my discharges were honorable, but I'm pretty sure the DD-214 is issued for all discharges, but I think it lists the character of the discharge therein. And for the purposes of a CHP, the DD-214 would only be used as the document proving firearms training.

    But that doesn't matter, anyway. The statute states that the individual must be "involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment" pursuant to the other statutes listed.

    So if your wife hasn't been ordered to have treatment by a judge, it doesn't matter that some doctor says she has a "personality disorder." Hell, some men believe that all women fit that description. Maybe that doctor was one of them.

    Excuse me now, I need to get out of range before Tess or Riana reads this and starts drawing a bead on me.

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    All women are a little crazy but that's okay! It just adds spice to the relationship Yes, there was no "ordering" or "involuntary" actions with her situation so it looks like we're in the clear! That's very relieving! Also a big thanks to ProShooter for posting the applicable code, much appreciated!

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    What you state, in and of itself, doesn't seem to disqualify your wife. Nevertheless, you can ascertain that for yourself since you have much more information (details) than we do. Here are some select laws for you to review:

    § 18.2-308(E)(18):

    E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:
    [...]
    18. An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.
    [...]




    These are just Virginia laws relating to prohibited persons (unlawful to purchase, possess, transport, etc...):

    § 18.2-308.2:1. Prohibiting the selling, etc., of firearms to certain persons.
    § 18.2-308.1:1. Possession or transportation of firearms by persons acquitted by reason of insanity; penalty; permit.
    § 18.2-308.2. Possession or transportation of firearms, firearms ammunition, stun weapons, explosives or concealed weapons by convicted felons; penalties; petition for permit; when issued.
    § 18.2-308.2:01. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by certain persons.
    § 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty.
    § 18.2-308.1:3. Purchase, possession or transportation of firearm by persons involuntarily admitted or ordered to outpatient treatment; penalty.

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...07000000000000


    I remember that there is interest in the General Assembly to "enhance" Virginia law to make it harder or impossible for anyone to "get" a firearm if they have had any kind or maybe certain kinds of mental health treatment at all. Keep your eyes peeled for legislation that may come up in the next legislative session that could affect your wife.

    In any event, even prohibited persons have the ability to appeal and petition courts for a permit to purchase, possess, and transport firearms. The details are in those laws I specified above. I don't know if Federal law would prohibit some or all of the Virginia prohibited persons from carrying, even if they were to have the permission of Virginia to do so.

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    Milbars wrote:
    Okay, so while I'm still the FNG around here, I've got an interesting scenario for you all. My wife was honorably discharged from the military but at the same time she got railroaded. On her DD214, at the bottom it says "personality disorder". This was a single doctor's opinion @ Landstuhl and she has never been certified "crazy" nor been diagnosed with anything by mental health professionals. I trust her with my life and have no qualms about her around firearms. Will this bar her from being able to apply for a CCW and/or firearm ownership? I know to take your opinions at face value, I was just curious from my reading up on the laws and codes.



    edit: by face value, I mean that only a couple of you are lawyers but I have seen multiple posts where people have said "here's our opinion but investigate to make sure ymmv". A lot of you are obviously very good with the law books.
    Just a thought...

    So why use the DD214 to apply? Why have that information as part of the public record?

    Just send her to a class and use that certificate instead.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    pourshot wrote:
    Just a thought...

    So why use the DD214 to apply? Why have that information as part of the public record?

    Just send her to a class and use that certificate instead.
    +1

    There are several ways to meet minimum standards for CHP. The DD214 is just one of them.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    WOO HOO, something I can help with.
    I used mine (10 years ago) and mine says the same thing: Honorable, Convenience of the Government, Personality Disorder. As long as she does not fit a prohibited person category as defined in 18.2-308 she’s good to go. This DOES change if it is not an Honorable discharge.
    I do not know the branch of services she was in so the classification may be slightly different than mine. The Marine Corps uses it in several contexts but they all center on one theme, the person would not adapt, conform, adhere to or generally play nice in a military setting. In essence you did not complete your contract and the service is not willing to take adverse actions against you but you’re still gone.
    Please keep in mind IANAL, this info is from my own experience. I do however know a good attorney (but kind of expensive) that has some experience with this.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Milbars wrote:
    On her DD214, at the bottom it says "personality disorder". This was a single doctor's opinion @ Landstuhl and she has never been certified "crazy" nor been diagnosed with anything by mental health professionals.
    I always wondered if people who had mild disorders like panic attacks and were being treated with drugs like Prozac, would be disqualified.

    Seems Doctors give Valium, Prozac and other strong prescriptions, out like candy.

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    So why use the DD214 to apply? Why have that information as part of the public record?
    Both the Online CHP course and Hunters Safety course can also be used to satisfy the requirements.
    A CHP class is recommended but not required, but if a class is desired there are many fine instructors on this site.
    A few have posted in this thread.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    TexasNative wrote:
    I can't speak from experience since all my discharges were honorable, but I'm pretty sure the DD-214 is issued for all discharges.
    I canunequivocally state that Texas is completely right. All discharged personnel get a DD-214.

    However, the others on this thread are right to state that you do not need to use the DD-214 in your application. So either way, it's a moot point. You should have no problems.

    That being said, I'd be interested in hearing how it goes.

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    The DD-214 is for discharging. Nothing more. It spells out your re-enlistment code along with a few other details (specialties, training, etc).

    All service members get them at time of discharge.

    Here's a neat piece of trivia... service members get a DD-214 every time they are discharged. Thus, if you enlist for 4 years and then re-enlist ever 4 years after and then retire after 20 years of service, you will have a DD-214 from each of your re-enlistments for a total of 5 DD-214s... because you cannot re-enlist without having been discharged first. The trick is purely a paper exercise as you sign your discharge papers and then sign your re-enlistment contract. Why? To (re-)enlist, you must first be separated from / not in the military.

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    Milbars wrote:
    Okay, so while I'm still the FNG around here, I've got an interesting scenario for you all. My wife was honorably discharged from the military but at the same time she got railroaded. On her DD214, at the bottom it says "personality disorder". This was a single doctor's opinion @ Landstuhl and she has never been certified "crazy" nor been diagnosed with anything by mental health professionals. I trust her with my life and have no qualms about her around firearms. Will this bar her from being able to apply for a CCW and/or firearm ownership? I know to take your opinions at face value, I was just curious from my reading up on the laws and codes.

    edit: by face value, I mean that only a couple of you are lawyers but I have seen multiple posts where people have said "here's our opinion but investigate to make sure ymmv". A lot of you are obviously very good with the law books.
    If she was never "adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution," 18 USC 922(d)(4), then she is presumably not disabled from gun ownership as a matter of federal law for being adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.

    I just noticed that 18 USC 922(d)(4) only operates to make it unlawful to transfer a gun to a person who has been "adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution," but I think there must be some other federal or state law making such people actually disabled from ownership, I just don't know the specific statute at this time.

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    Mixing military and government bureaucracies can't be a good idea. Get another qualification and skip the drama.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    You guys have brought up a good point. I was initially looking into her just using it for now since she is technically a non-resident (for the moment) and then mandating the class for the both of us. It's actually a better idea to just skip the first part and just go right to the class.

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    If she has been subjected to INVOLUNTARY treatment for a psychological disorder, or was voluntarily committed to an inpatient treatment program, then it is a crime for her to be in possession of a firearm in Virginia and she cannot obtain a concealed carry permit.

    So here's the rule: if you're actually nuts, but happy with that, it's ok for you to have guns (e.g., Cho, the Va. Tech. assailant); but if you have been concerned about your own mental health and tried to get better, it's a crime for you to have guns.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    pourshot wrote:
    Just a thought...

    So why use the DD214 to apply?* Why have that information as part of the public record?

    Just send her to a class and use that certificate instead.
    +1

    There are several ways to meet minimum standards for CHP.* The DD214 is just one of them.

    ******** Yata hey
    Right. When you file an application, that's a petition to the circuit court, receives a case number, and becomes a matter of public record. Anyone who wants to can go into the clerk's office and look at the file. The only value in the honorable discharge certificate is to show "proficiency". But any course taught by an appropriate instructor that covers EITHER safety or proficiency (the course is not required to cover both) will satisfy the certification requirement.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    user wrote:
    If she has been subjected to INVOLUNTARY treatment for a psychological disorder, or was voluntarily committed to an inpatient treatment program, then it is a crime for her to be in possession of a firearm in Virginia and she cannot obtain a concealed carry permit.

    So here's the rule: if you're actually nuts, but happy with that, it's ok for you to have guns (e.g., Cho, the Va. Tech. assailant); but if you have been concerned about your own mental health and tried to get better, it's a crime for you to have guns.
    You have a way with words. You would make a good attorney.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    user wrote:
    If she has been subjected to INVOLUNTARY treatment for a psychological disorder, or was voluntarily committed to an inpatient treatment program, then it is a crime for her to be in possession of a firearm in Virginia and she cannot obtain a concealed carry permit.

    So here's the rule: if you're actually nuts, but happy with that, it's ok for you to have guns (e.g., Cho, the Va. Tech. assailant); but if you have been concerned about your own mental health and tried to get better, it's a crime for you to have guns.
    Uh, the above is not completely correct; cite to authority when proffering rules of law.

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    Mike wrote:
    user wrote:
    If she has been subjected to INVOLUNTARY treatment for a psychological disorder, or was voluntarily committed to an inpatient treatment program, then it is a crime for her to be in possession of a firearm in Virginia and she cannot obtain a concealed carry permit.

    So here's the rule: if you're actually nuts, but happy with that, it's ok for you to have guns (e.g., Cho, the Va. Tech. assailant); but if you have been concerned about your own mental health and tried to get better, it's a crime for you to have guns.
    Uh, the above is not completely correct; cite to authority when proffering rules of law.
    "... the above is not completely correct ..."

    Uh, what part of User's reply would that be, Mike?

    From the Code of Virginia:

    Purchase, possession or transportation of firearm by persons involuntarily admitted or ordered to outpatient treatment; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment pursuant to § 19.2-169.2, involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment as the result of a commitment hearing pursuant to Article 5 (§ 37.2-814 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 37.2, or who was the subject of a temporary detention order pursuant to § 37.2-809 and subsequently agreed to voluntary admission pursuant to § 37.2-805 to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

  21. #21
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    Repeater wrote:
    "... the above is not completely correct ..."

    Uh, what part of User's reply would that be, Mike?

    From the Code of Virginia:

    Purchase, possession or transportation of firearm by persons involuntarily admitted or ordered to outpatient treatment; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment pursuant to § 19.2-169.2, involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment as the result of a commitment hearing pursuant to Article 5 (§ 37.2-814 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 37.2, or who was the subject of a temporary detention order pursuant to § 37.2-809 and subsequently agreed to voluntary admission pursuant to § 37.2-805 to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    Most of user's reply is incorrect - the "she" in this case was treated in Germany, not pursuant to any of the Va. code sections you cite above which would then trigger a Virginia disability on firearm owership; user's statements thatvoluntarily submitting yourself to treatment gets you disabled is flatly not true except in the narrow case you cite to; the Cho example is wrong under current law, as well as the Kaine royal decree era pre-codification -ordering a person to outpatient treatment is the same as comitting them to a "facility" hence disabling their gun rights.

    The most disturbing part of user's post is the assertion that people like Cho who refuse to follow treatment orders issued by a Virginia judge are not disabled from owning guns but that anybody who voluntarily submits to some mentl health treatment is disabled - this is exactly backwards.

  22. #22
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    That raises a number of interesting points. I do often talk off the top of my head in what I consider an informal "hearing" - if I had to prepare for an online forum the same way I do for court, well, I wouldn't do it. But I recognize I may be wrong, and am happy to be corrected.

    For example, in the Cho controversy, I was under the impression that the requirement that he submit to treatment was a condition of a bond or parole; not an order. Those are different, and a person who chooses to disobey a condition of bond or parole has the option of having the bond or parole revoked; it's essentially his choice. That's not the same as an order that he do something (which in the Cho case, as I understand it, would have required a great deal more legal process than was obtained.)

    I had a case not too long ago, in which the mental health issues were a significant part, so the subject is not totally foreign to me. Part of the problem is that I was summarizing several related statutes. But as I say, I may be wrong, and I'll check my conclusions and let you know what I find out.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Here's an excerpt from the U.S. Code, the provision cited applies irrespective of the place wherein the adjudication or committment occurred (emphasis added).

    TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
    PART I - CRIMES
    CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
    Sec. 922. Unlawful acts
    ...
    (g) It shall be unlawful for any person -
    ...
    (4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
    ...

    to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Repeater wrote:
    "... the above is not completely correct ..."

    Uh, what part of User's reply would that be, Mike?

    From the Code of Virginia:

    Purchase, possession or transportation of firearm by persons involuntarily admitted or ordered to outpatient treatment; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment pursuant to § 19.2-169.2, involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment as the result of a commitment hearing pursuant to Article 5 (§ 37.2-814 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 37.2, or who was the subject of a temporary detention order pursuant to § 37.2-809 and subsequently agreed to voluntary admission pursuant to § 37.2-805 to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    ... The most disturbing part of user's post is the assertion that people like Cho who refuse to follow treatment orders issued by a Virginia judge are not disabled from owning guns but that anybody who voluntarily submits to some mentl health treatment is disabled - this is exactly backwards.
    In fact, anyone who voluntarily submits to some mental health treatment [in a residential facility] is disabled with respect to obtaining a Virginia CHP:

    [SNIP]
    E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:

    ...

    18. An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.
    Note the subdivision makes no distinction between voluntary and involuntary admission to such treatment. The legal disability lasts five years.

    Thus, a Virginian who really ought to seek treatment -- but doesn't -- will have right to obtain a CHP, while another Virginian who sought treatment -- and was successful -- will effectively be punished for having done so. Agreed, it's backwards -- and discriminatory.

    Part of Milbars question was: "Will this bar her from being able to apply for a CCW ... ?"

    Fortunately, in her case, he did not indicate that she was ever in such a facility.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Repeater wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Repeater wrote:
    "... the above is not completely correct ..."

    Uh, what part of User's reply would that be, Mike?

    From the Code of Virginia:

    Purchase, possession or transportation of firearm by persons involuntarily admitted or ordered to outpatient treatment; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment pursuant to § 19.2-169.2, involuntarily admitted to a facility or ordered to mandatory outpatient treatment as the result of a commitment hearing pursuant to Article 5 (§ 37.2-814 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 37.2, or who was the subject of a temporary detention order pursuant to § 37.2-809 and subsequently agreed to voluntary admission pursuant to § 37.2-805 to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    ... The most disturbing part of user's post is the assertion that people like Cho who refuse to follow treatment orders issued by a Virginia judge are not disabled from owning guns but that anybody who voluntarily submits to some mentl health treatment is disabled - this is exactly backwards.
    In fact, anyone who voluntarily submits to some mental health treatment [in a residential facility] is disabled with respect to obtaining a Virginia CHP:

    [SNIP]
    E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:

    ...

    18. An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.
    Note the subdivision makes no distinction between voluntary and involuntary admission to such treatment. The legal disability lasts five years.

    Thus, a Virginian who really ought to seek treatment -- but doesn't -- will have right to obtain a CHP, while another Virginian who sought treatment -- and was successful -- will effectively be punished for having done so. Agreed, it's backwards -- and discriminatory.

    Part of Milbars question was: "Will this bar her from being able to apply for a CCW ... ?"

    Fortunately, in her case, he did not indicate that she was ever in such a facility.
    What does "in a residential setting" mean? Is that a rooming house setting or a residential neighborhood?

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